The Church and members who aren't documented

[Jeff K.]

Immigration issues are a mess, when a nation built on immigration (legal and otherwise) looks away from the problem of documentation, it in effect allows a wound to fester until it becomes a danger to the limb.

In Utah, Colombian-American Isabel Rojas has begun urging leaders and rank-and-file members of the Mormon Church

[Nofear]

The policy of the Catholic church in CA is to ignore the laws and in fact help develop pathways into America for immigrants who wish to come.

Quite an accusation. You're probably aware that there is no legal obligation whatsoever for U.S. citizens to report illegal immigrants so you must be referring to something else.

[Jeff K.]

Quite an accusation. You're probably aware that there is no legal obligation whatsoever for U.S. citizens to report illegal immigrants so you must be referring to something else.

Cardinal Mahoney made it quite clear in his appearences here in southern CA.

On March 1, during Ash Wednesday Mass, the Hollywood-born clergyman attacked a House bill that would turn most people and institutions that aid illegal immigrants into felons. Calling it "blameful, vicious" legislation, Mahony vowed a campaign of civil disobedience in the archdiocese's 288 parishes if it becomes law.

Protest organizers and participants credited Mahony's fire from the pulpit -- and the educational campaign he initiated in January throughout his archdiocese -- with playing a critical role in organizing opposition. They say his efforts helped prompt half a million people, including many illegal immigrants, to feel safe enough participate in one of the biggest demonstrations ever in downtown Los Angeles on March 25, calling for a more liberal immigration bill.

Los Angeles was one of more than a dozen cities in which demonstrators coursed through the streets. Earlier last week, a Senate committee approved an alternative measure with a guest-worker program that would help many illegal immigrants eventually win permanent residency or even U.S. citizenship. "I think this is a good beginning," Mahony said in an interview, "but we are not stopping now."

Washington Post

There are others. I don't fault the Cardinal his opinion on the subject by the way, it is nuanced.

[Nofear]

Cardinal Mahoney made it quite clear in his appearences here in southern CA.

That was an article in 2006 about a bill that never made it anywhere (I think). Still, I would view a bill that would make it a felony for a Bishop to give fast offering funds to an illegal immigrant family as "blameful" and "vicious" (disclaimer: I am in no way informed on the legal specifics of the bill and so my posited scenario is guesswork). I doubt the Church would go so far as suggesting civil disobedience, but I do not at any level see the Church as favoring such a bill (my legally uninformed reading-between-the-lines-from-the-article interpretation thereof), past or future.

But, to present a response to your original post's question, I don't know what the right answer to illegal immigration is (other than annexing Mexico ), but I don't think "blaming" the illegal immigrant is the right answer. Sure, they are indeed the legally culpable party for entering the U.S. illegally, but whatever the answer is, mercy will be a part of the equation in my opinion.

[hordak]

As far as i know the atonement covers all regardless of what nation they are in. On top of that Mexico has 5 temples in the north one of which is on the boarder.

This has nothing to with the Gospel, which the church has done so much to spread across the world. A Mexican saint can live the same Christ centered life and have the same saving/ exalting ordinances done in their country of origin

The stake president doesn't know what it would be like for the illegals because he himself follows the law. No different then him not knowing what it is like for a drug dealer or a thief, who constantly worries they may be taken away and imprisoned being separated from their family yet i doubt he would show such concern.

Mixing the Gospel with this issue is absurd. The 12th article of faith says we obey the law, the church teaches the gospel is for everyone and it and it's members spend hundreds of thousands,if not millions to make this possible.

The church should encourage them to go home, to seek salvation like everyone else by following the commandment (thou shalt not lie) and the the article of faith.

Can you repent of a sin while continuing to do it?

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.(unless breaking that law gives you and your family a better life)

[CV75]

Immigration issues are a mess

in relation to stronger immigration legislation considered in Utah, the Church did say that there is a tremendous human / humanitarian cost to be considered. I'd say this would trump more sophisticated expectations and requirements that some might want to impose on an entire immigrant population. Kind of the opposite of Laban's execution: no sense sacrificing a few innocents along the way for the economic or political satisfaction of a particular viewpoint.

[ERayR]

As far as i know the atonement covers all regardless of what nation they are in. On top of that Mexico has 5 temples in the north one of which is on the boarder.

This has nothing to with the Gospel, which the church has done so much to spread across the world. A Mexican saint can live the same Christ centered life and have the same saving/ exalting ordinances done in their country of origin

The stake president doesn't know what it would be like for the illegals because he himself follows the law. No different then him not knowing what it is like for a drug dealer or a thief, who constantly worries they may be taken away and imprisoned being separated from their family yet i doubt he would show such concern.

Mixing the Gospel with this issue is absurd. The 12th article of faith says we obey the law, the church teaches the gospel is for everyone and it and it's members spend hundreds of thousands,if not millions to make this possible.

The church should encourage them to go home, to seek salvation like everyone else by following the commandment (thou shalt not lie) and the the article of faith.

Can you repent of a sin while continuing to do it?

hordak

You also appear to know nothing about what it means to be an undocumented immagrant. To a large portion they have two choices. One is to take the risks of entering the USA illegally or watch their families go hungry. I submit that before you condemn you should face the same choice. You quote scripture to bolster your position, perhaps you didn't read far enough. Try Mosiah 4:14. "And ye will not suffer your children that they go hungry, or naked; neither will ye suffer that they transgress the laws of God, and fight and quarrel one with another, and serve the devil, who is the master of sin, or who is the devil spirit which hath been spoken of by our fathers, he being an enemy to all righteousness."

Which would you choose, which is the greater commandment.

[toon]

As far as i know the atonement covers all regardless of what nation they are in. On top of that Mexico has 5 temples in the north one of which is on the boarder.

This has nothing to with the Gospel, which the church has done so much to spread across the world. A Mexican saint can live the same Christ centered life and have the same saving/ exalting ordinances done in their country of origin

The stake president doesn't know what it would be like for the illegals because he himself follows the law. No different then him not knowing what it is like for a drug dealer or a thief, who constantly worries they may be taken away and imprisoned being separated from their family yet i doubt he would show such concern.

Mixing the Gospel with this issue is absurd. The 12th article of faith says we obey the law, the church teaches the gospel is for everyone and it and it's members spend hundreds of thousands,if not millions to make this possible.

The church should encourage them to go home, to seek salvation like everyone else by following the commandment (thou shalt not lie) and the the article of faith.

Can you repent of a sin while continuing to do it?

I knew a young man who, at the time, was 19 years old. He came with his family when he was one year old and since then has lived his entire life here. If he wanted to legalize his status, it's my understanding that he would have to move back to Mexico for a significant period, where he has no immediate famiily, before applying to get the chance to move back here legally. He is subject to deportation at any time. But I have a hard time viewing his simple act of continuing to live where he was raised as a sin. What would be your advice to this young man?

[LeSellers]

You also appear to know nothing about what it means to be an undocumented immagrant. To a large portion they have two choices. One is to take the risks of entering the USA illegally or watch their families go hungry. I submit that before you condemn you should face the same choice.

And I submit that this is not the case, at least not for all, or even most.

Were it so, we would not see them leaving USmerica when things get bad here, as they are now, because, nothing has changed (if so, only for the worse) in their homelands. They stay here because it's still better here than there.

Even so, this has nothing to do with whether we and they should obey the law.

Lehi

[frankenstein]

hordak

Which would you choose, which is the greater commandment.

Love God. and if you love God you keep his commandments and if you are keeping the commandments of God you have no need to break the laws of man.

The Church should actively, openly, succinctly, unquestionably teach the people where ever they may be to follow the laws of the, and to teach that God can not ''look upon sin with the least degree of allowance"...

the church has added "child support" questions to the Temple recommend interview perhaps its timely to add a LEGAL RESIDENT question.

[BCSpace]

What pragmatic practical plan would you have that would allow us to overcome the problem?

Obedience to the law is the simplest and most effective solution.

Does mass deportation answer the question or is it cruel and unusual, especially towards members whose children now speak our language and live our culture with greater fluency than that of their parents? What is compassionate and pratical?

Enforcement does not have to involve roundups and mass deportation. Simply denying services to illegals (we do ourselves a great disservice by calling them "undocumented" because it's not a completely accurate description), such as welfare, health care, voting, driver's licenses, bank loans, education, water sewer electricity and other utilities, recourse to the constitutional freedoms, etc. will go a long way towards solving the problem. Illegals may always go back across the border and come in via the appropriate manner. I have no problem increasing the allowable numbers for this.

[frankenstein]

Obedience to the law is the simplest and most effective solution.

Enforcement does not have to involve roundups and mass deportation. Simply denying services to illegals (we do ourselves a great disservice by calling them "undocumented" because it's not a completely accurate description), such as welfare, health care, voting, driver's licenses, bank loans, education, water sewer electricity and other utilities, recourse to the constitutional freedoms, etc. will go a long way towards solving the problem. Illegals may always go back across the border and come in via the appropriate manner. I have no problem increasing the allowable numbers for this.

you should add Federal Tax refunds to your list...do some research on Form W7, with this form mexican nationals whether legal aliens or illegal aliens get the same tax benefits as a US Citizen except for the Child Tax Credit, the form W7 also provides the means by which all illegals can get a Federal tax refund.

[Jeff K.]

Frankenstein:

I used to run human resources in a firm, and I do know the laws in CA. In CA you must show proof of citizenship to get a job. In fact you have to have a social security number and another form of picture ID. Businesses need that to hire someone. What often happens is that, in order to get a job, people will use a fake SS#. Not even a real number. And so as a company we dutifully take out the fed and state taxes. At the end of the year, those who do not have correct SS#'s do not get a refund because they have to verify their SS# as correct.

Most states have a similar program to California's hiring policy. Therefore I submit to you that the end results are that these people do "not" receive a refund. They in effect pay higher taxes than you or I do since they cannot take advantage of such refunds.

But then, that is really a minor quibble, a technical issue I am very familiar with in the state of California.

And when we talk about "obediance to the law", we are often required to ask ourselves to what mercy we are entitled to ourselves? If Christ held us "to the law" how much mercy and compassion would there have been for us? In a sense, every one of us is "illegal", we exist based on the mercy and compassion of the atonement which pays for our illegal acts. We had no right to demand the atonement from Christ, we have sinned and justice would require us to pay the fine, or as one person put it, keep the commandments and there would be no need for compassion. But how many of us have kept the commandments? How many of us have used "amnesty" in terms of repentance? Or is there a difference between the debt we owe Christ, and debt of compassion we offer to others? Does Christs compassion stop with us?

How do we show the love of Christ and simultaneously help ourselves out of a difficult situation?

[alter idem]

Love God. and if you love God you keep his commandments and if you are keeping the commandments of God you have no need to break the laws of man.

The Church should actively, openly, succinctly, unquestionably teach the people where ever they may be to follow the laws of the, and to teach that God can not ''look upon sin with the least degree of allowance"...

the church has added "child support" questions to the Temple recommend interview perhaps its timely to add a LEGAL RESIDENT question.

I disagree. I think people should know their scriptures so that they know what is expected of them in how they treat their fellowmen. A govt. is not always to be followed unquestioningly. I just finished reading a book on "Life and Death in the Third Reich" and clearly the people were forced to choose between the religious values that they'd been taught and following the laws of their land.

Though LDS believe in being good citizens, we do not believe we should follow 'unquestioningly'.

As for this country's immigration laws; It is the govt's. job to enforce immigration laws, not the church. There is no reason to put a question like that in the temple recommend interview, especially since the country is so lax about enforcing immigration laws.

[ERayR]

Love God. and if you love God you keep his commandments and if you are keeping the commandments of God you have no need to break the laws of man.

The Church should actively, openly, succinctly, unquestionably teach the people where ever they may be to follow the laws of the, and to teach that God can not ''look upon sin with the least degree of allowance"...

the church has added "child support" questions to the Temple recommend interview perhaps its timely to add a LEGAL RESIDENT question.

In case you didn't notice the choice was between providing for family(hence the quote frome Alma) and illegal entry into US.

Go back andd make a choice between those two.

[ERayR]

Frankenstein:

I used to run human resources in a firm, and I do know the laws in CA. In CA you must show proof of citizenship to get a job. In fact you have to have a social security number and another form of picture ID. Businesses need that to hire someone. What often happens is that, in order to get a job, people will use a fake SS#. Not even a real number. And so as a company we dutifully take out the fed and state taxes. At the end of the year, those who do not have correct SS#'s do not get a refund because they have to verify their SS# as correct.

Most states have a similar program to California's hiring policy. Therefore I submit to you that the end results are that these people do "not" receive a refund. They in effect pay higher taxes than you or I do since they cannot take advantage of such refunds.

But then, that is really a minor quibble, a technical issue I am very familiar with in the state of California.

And when we talk about "obediance to the law", we are often required to ask ourselves to what mercy we are entitled to ourselves? If Christ held us "to the law" how much mercy and compassion would there have been for us? In a sense, every one of us is "illegal", we exist based on the mercy and compassion of the atonement which pays for our illegal acts. We had no right to demand the atonement from Christ, we have sinned and justice would require us to pay the fine, or as one person put it, keep the commandments and there would be no need for compassion. But how many of us have kept the commandments? How many of us have used "amnesty" in terms of repentance? Or is there a difference between the debt we owe Christ, and debt of compassion we offer to others? Does Christs compassion stop with us?

How do we show the love of Christ and simultaneously help ourselves out of a difficult situation?

Even if you kept all the commandments you still must rely on Christ grace and mercy.

[Jeff K.]

Even if you kept all the commandments you still must rely on Christ grace and mercy.

I think you overlook the question of compassion for the technicality of the gospel. The point remains valid, we exist under the mercy and compassion of Christ, we who have broken the law so often and sought amnesty. Again, does the compassion Christ has shown us reside or stop with us? Or is there an obligation on our part? And if there is, what is our obligation in the matter?

[Obiwan]

I think the answer is simple.... We make the laws and borders as strict and enforceable as possible which they currently aren't, so as to protect American standard of living, jobs, and values, and then for those that still are able to get through, we have mercy as much as possible, and send them back if they have no connection, character, ties etc. here, but if they do and are willing to conform, then let them stay and be legal.

These two steps would satisfy the requirements of both the law and mercy....

[Anijen]

frankenstein,

the church has added "child support" questions to the Temple recommend interview perhaps its timely to add a LEGAL RESIDENT question.

Telling the church what they should do, seems like pride to me.

Immigration, the only thing I am for is keeping criminals and terrorist out, other than that I say let them in. It is a sign of a better country if people are trying to get in and a sign of a worse one were they are trying to leave.

[ERayR]

I think you overlook the question of compassion for the technicality of the gospel. The point remains valid, we exist under the mercy and compassion of Christ, we who have broken the law so often and sought amnesty. Again, does the compassion Christ has shown us reside or stop with us? Or is there an obligation on our part? And if there is, what is our obligation in the matter?

I am not arguing with you I am agreeing with you.

[Fly Fisherman]

One is to take the risks of entering the USA illegally or watch their families go hungry.

CFR. I would really like to read reliable evidence or proof that they will starve if they don't enter the USA illegally. Let me know what you find. I am not trying to argue or even disagree. I just want to know if this really is the case for most families that cross the border illegally.

[Jeff K.]

I am not arguing with you I am agreeing with you.

Sigh, leave it to me to mess up a good agreement.

[Confidential Informant]

Sigh, leave it to me to mess up a good agreement.

I always am fascinated by such arguments were almost none of the participants actually know what the laws they are defending/excoriating actually say.

C.I.

Member: Association of Immigration Lawyers of American (AILA).

[hordak]

I knew a young man who, at the time, was 19 years old. He came with his family when he was one year old and since then has lived his entire life here. If he wanted to legalize his status, it's my understanding that he would have to move back to Mexico for a significant period, where he has no immediate famiily, before applying to get the chance to move back here legally. He is subject to deportation at any time. But I have a hard time viewing his simple act of continuing to live where he was raised as a sin. What would be your advice to this young man?

I would give him the same advice i would give any who are accustomed to living a certain quality of life based on their parents criminal activity. Seek legal council but obey the law. When some ponzi schemer or mafioso gets busted and the feds seize the ill gotten gains we aren't up in arms screaming about the kids. "Don't take little gotti's Escalade, it's not his falt his daddy bought it with drug money, he can hide it at my place"

[frankenstein]

Frankenstein:

I used to run human resources in a firm, and I do know the laws in CA. In CA you must show proof of citizenship to get a job. In fact you have to have a social security number and another form of picture ID. Businesses need that to hire someone. What often happens is that, in order to get a job, people will use a fake SS#. Not even a real number. And so as a company we dutifully take out the fed and state taxes. At the end of the year, those who do not have correct SS#'s do not get a refund because they have to verify their SS# as correct.

Most states have a similar program to California's hiring policy. Therefore I submit to you that the end results are that these people do "not" receive a refund.

You obviously did not look Form W7, the IRS issues Individual Tax Identification Numbers to legal resident and illegals alien. The IRS does not report the illegal aliens to DHS. The IRS has internal policy of "don't ask because we do not care" when it comes to processing form W7 with an attached W2 that has the SSN of a newborn Child on it, or the SSN of a dead person. And yes illegals do get tax refunds if they submit Form W7 and the proper paper work.....i have processed thousands of these forms. Go ask your local H&R outfit about form W7, or your local Liberty Tax business about Form W7.

And when we talk about "obediance to the law", we are often required to ask ourselves to what mercy we are entitled to ourselves? If Christ held us "to the law" how much mercy and compassion would there have been for us? In a sense, every one of us is "illegal", we exist based on the mercy and compassion of the atonement which pays for our illegal acts. We had no right to demand the atonement from Christ, we have sinned and justice would require us to pay the fine, or as one person put it, keep the commandments and there would be no need for compassion. But how many of us have kept the commandments? How many of us have used "amnesty" in terms of repentance? Or is there a difference between the debt we owe Christ, and debt of compassion we offer to others? Does Christs compassion stop with us?

How do we show the love of Christ and simultaneously help ourselves out of a difficult situation?

nice flattering words. what compassion am I to show, visit those in prison, feed the hungry, etc, love my neighbor, Keep the commandments of God, Render unto to Ceasar the things that are Ceasars, follow the law of the law.

Immigration, the only thing I am for is keeping criminals and terrorist out, other than that I say let them in. It is a sign of a better country if people are trying to get in and a sign of a worse one were they are trying to leave.

didn't some national figure say "it doesn't make you better because you suck a little less"...or something to that affect? people illegally coming here does not mean anything.

As for this country's immigration laws; It is the govt's. job to enforce immigration laws, not the church. There is no reason to put a question like that in the temple recommend interview, especially since the country is so lax about enforcing immigration laws.

it is also not the Churches place to enforce child support payments, yet Child support is part of the interview.

all in all what I read from many of you here is an abuse of the word "compassion". illegals are not slaves escaping from plantations, illegals are not Anne Frank subject to extermination orders (if an illegal is and can prove it, then that illegal gets Refugee status or Asylum)