The Church and members who aren't documented

[Jeff K.]

I think callous disregard for our brothers and sisters in light of the choices the prophet and apostles of the Lord have made put some of us in a precarious position. The intransigence of those who would condemn our brothers and sisters to a life of poverty elsewhere makes light of the temple and its covenants.

Alma 12:13

Then if our hearts have been hardened, yea, if we have hardened our hearts against the word, insomuch that it has not been found in us, then will our state be awful, for then we shall be condemned.

"

Pride is concerned with who is right. Humility is concerned with what is right."

[O-Brother]

I think callous disregard for our brothers and sisters in light of the choices the prophet and apostles of the Lord have made put some of us in a precarious position. The intransigence of those who would condemn our brothers and sisters to a life of poverty elsewhere makes light of the temple and its covenants.

Alma 12:13

"

In this case I would use the word "ironic". I hope Christ is more merciful to you than you are to his followers.

At that time, I hope I have learned from our own scriptures:

D&C 58: 21, "Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land."

I also suggest understanding what we stand for by reading D&C 134: 1-11, "WE believe that governments were instituted of God for the benefit of man; and that he holds men accountable for their acts in relation to them, both in making laws and administering them, for the good and safety of society.

You do err, brother. I wish you the best too.

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

It is a very difficult situation to explain, the cases of immigration.

I was vehemently against it before my mission in Mexico.

Coming back, I can see why Mexicans and Central Americans risk life and limb to come here. Take a look at our southern border with the madness going on in Juarez, Tijuana, and Nuevo Laredo...or the political conflicts in southern Mexico and Central America...

[Calm]

I will agree to disagree. I will not participate no more in this thread. I tried to explain my feelings. Jeff K post (118) was eloquently put forth and I think is an excellent summation and I could not do a better job. My last thoughts on the matter are there are a lot more callused unsympathetic people than I realized.

I don't believe you can divide up those posting on the thread into two camps and for any reason apply that sample to the real world and if you just do a count of the groups in this thread and compare it to even the number of active posters on the board, I don't see any evidence of "a lot more".

However, again this board is not a very good slice of either LDS demographics or USA demographics or global, so I would refrain from drawing any conclusions about anyone save the posters themselves (on any issue that gets discussed on the board imo).

[Jeff K.]

D&C 58: 21, "Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land."

I also suggest understanding what we stand for by reading D&C 134: 1-11, "WE believe that governments were instituted of God for the benefit of man; and that he holds men accountable for their acts in relation to them, both in making laws and administering them, for the good and safety of society.

Was that before or after polygamy was outlawed? And governments do not mean all governments, nor do they mean all laws. Were it so, then I do not believe the prophet and apostles would be providing the policy they presently do, which tends to go against the very idea suggested.

As I have said, I work with these brethern, I help them. And I will say with great clarity that the benign actions of decades by our government in not keeping its borders closed, and in not discouraging illegal immigration (indeed encouraging it through programs like the bracero program) in effect do not give us the right to impoversh and destroy the livlihoods of generations. And I believe in all truth that the mercy of Christ should be the leven to the destruction of a people. It might be easy for some of you to destroy the livlihood of an honest man and a brother and temple recommend holder, but I cannot it, and so will advocate for the mercy of Christ over the laws of the land, which laws in effect allowed this situation to be created.

[Jeff K.]

making laws and administering them, for the good and safety of society.

How does making the Garcia family poor enhance the good or safety of society?

[O-Brother]

How does making the Garcia family poor enhance the good or safety of society?

To answer your question, there are two options:

1. You can ask the author of D&C who wrote those verses.

2. You can try to understand my answer.

So I will give you a long #2, sorry about that:

First, "making" them poor is not something that I or anyone who shares my views would "do" to them. That's up to immigration authorities. We don't enforce immigration laws, right? We don't report fellow LDS members who we know or believe to be in the country illegally. I know I would never engage in such practice unless I had to defend my family or a loved one. Second, the risks they take and took when coming here illegally included but are not limited to the possibility that they may have to go back to their homeland for violation of immigration laws. Pretty much like you and I would be subject to go to jail if we were convicted of a crime. Having said that, ANYONE who violates the law is subject to consequences. Finally, if the Garcia's are like 99% of illegal immigrants in the country, they can't work without a social security number. In the past, a SSN was easy to obtain EVEN IF you were illegal in the country or going to school. The SSA changed that. So Garcia's would have to obtain a false social security number. 15+ Million people doing the same thing affect society because many of them obtain credit using someone else's SSN. When the victim of id theft applies for credit or for a student loan, their credit profile can be all messed up and it costs money to repair a damaged credit report. Hence, that's not "good" for society because so many are engaged in the misuse of citizens' SSA's.

Now, if you want me to go a bit further, the total damage to society is about $338 Billion dollars per year. So Garcia's become a small part of a very big and expensive problem by joining the illegal immigrant population. The more we encourage or condone what they do, the more the problem multiplies and the more it hurts society. If Garcia's are the exception and they do not use anyone's social security number, then the harm they cause to society is that they help create an imbalance between legal immigration and illegal immigration by taking the place in society in lieu of someone who is waiting to be here legally. According to immigration laws, there is place for every immigrant in American society. According to illegal aliens, everyone can come in as they please. That's not true.

Now, I know where you're coming from and I've been where you've been in terms of knowing good, hard-working people with cute kids and nice family etc who happened to be living in the country illegally and I felt sorry for them and their situation. The first thing you want to do is help them live the American dream. I know people right now who are here illegally and I talk them periodically. I don't report them to immigration and I don't treat them any different that I would treat the President. I have sat in Church next to people who are here illegally and have had family parties at their homes. So, I'm probably not much different than you in that regard. You develop a love for them and the last thing you want to see is any harm come to them. True? OK. On the other hand, there is the law and the Ten Commandments.

Let me illustrate by telling you a real life story:

Many years ago, a young man came to the U.S. to go to school. He was LDS. In order to help with school he obtained an unauthorized part-time job at a fast food restaurant. He was a happy-go-around guy who made friends easily and spoke decent English. During the summer months, he was off school and worked full-time to save enough money for college. His boss had no problem with his immigration status, except that his visa had expired, something the law calls "out of status" However, this young man didn't know how to fix his out of status situation. He had rented a small room in his Bishop's basement. In conversation with the Bishop about going to college, the young man disclosed that his visa had expired. The next day, the Bishop asked to have a talk with him and he was told that he was loved. However, he was also given a refund on his rent money and asked to move out of the basement apartment as soon as possible. Why? His Bishop simply told him that because his visa had expired, he was therefore violating the terms of his visa and not in obedience with the laws of the land and that the Bishop could not aide and abet a law-breaker into this home! Simple as that. The young man, confused and dazed ended up moving into the home of a divorced LDS member. Within one month from this incident, the young man was arrested at work by the INS, put in jail for 2 weeks and asked to leave the country on a voluntary basis or face deportation at the government's expense. While in jail, he had no rights. No even the right to make a phone call. The law treated him worse than the worst criminal and for 2 days nobody knew what had happened to him until his girlfriend (LDS) had contacted his place of work and the manager told her that he had been cuffed and arrested by 2 undercover INS agents. He then flew back to his home country. There he went serve an honorable 2 year mission. After his mission, he found out that someone had turned him in to immigration. The Bishop? No. His girlfriend. No. His boss? No. His co-workers? No . A neighbor? No. Guess?

The missionary who had baptized him in his home country! The reason? Well, the returned missionary's wife didn't like him and didn't want her younger sister to marry a "foreigner" despite the fact that her sister was in love with him and they might eventually have gotten married. Now, you might be wondering how I know this story. The reason I know this is because that young man is my cousin.

So?

Well, as I said, he went and served the Lord with all his might, mind and strength and the Lord blessed him greatly. He ended up coming back to the U.S. legally as he did the fist time, went to school, found his eternal companion, forgave the missionary who betrayed him, moved on and today he's a proud U.S. citizen, a father and a good man. All things worked for good because he believed the Lord could help him return to America despite what happened to him. Was he bitter with the Bishop? No. The Bishop did the right thing. The Bishop couldn't harbor someone whom he perceived was breaking the law of the land despite his compassion toward him.

Was my cousin right in getting an unauthorized job? No. He should have renewed his visa and applied for an on-campus, authorized job instead. Was he bitter against the guy who had baptized him and whose wife was pesky about getting him deported so he would not marry her sister? No. He forgave her too. In fact, later, her place of work ended up becoming one of his clients so she would get to see him at least once a month which must have been torture for her. She too was LDS. Her plans didn't work. Her racism didn't work. But he did not marry her sister so she must have been happy.

Here's a young man who paid the price. Lost everything. Returned back to his home country, served the Lord and the Lord provided a way for him to return to America and all things worked out. How? By faith in the Lord. Not by cheating. Not by deception. Not by id theft. The social security card he had was his own which I'm sure is the same until this day. This is the kind of story that we should be teaching people. Not that it's OK to game or cheat the system. Nothing is impossible for the Lord and for those who believe. Now you can see why I would never personally turn someone in to immigration. I'm not a racist like that one woman in the story and I would never hurt a fellow LDS member knowing what I know. But my cousin's story is very inspiring because it shows the power of the Lord. If the Lord wants someone to live in the U.S., His will shall be done. He makes things happen. He provides the way for things to happen and there are many LEGAL immigrants in the Church who can testify to that.

There is no reason to lie and cheat and to condone cheating or illegal activity. That's why the Lord said what he said in the D&C scripture I quoted earlier, that he expects us to obey the laws of the land.

My cousin had to learn it the hard way and he suffered the consequences of his choices. Now, this was a long time ago. Immigration used to be strict but the country didn't have the same mess we do now. Why? Because the laws were enforced and they worked. Now it's a big mess and why would anyone in their sound mind want to make it a bigger mess than it already is and promote cheating by condoning those who break the laws of the land, despite their motives and stories? Do what is right and let the consequences follow. God WILL protect you, then do what is right. Right?

Beside, I myself come from a family of first generation immigrants and I am multi-lingual as well.

My thinking is that if we continue to condone illegal immigration like we have, we're going to face some serious challenges down the road. Simply put, I don't think it's the right thing to do but that's between me and the Lord. It's just my personal opinion. I know I'm not alone in my views. Millions of people share my views. But I understand too that many LDS members are pro-illegal immigration, mostly because of compassion and because of the Church's statements regarding the issue. That's fine. I respect that. I simply don't agree with it and I've had some serious conversations with two Bishops about it. You'd be surprised how they feel about the issue and it's not what you might expect, but their hands are tied. There is still time to teach correct principles. Otherwise, the problem - and it is a problem - will grow so big and so out of control that it will resemble what's happening in the nation now. I pray that won't be the case.

By the way, I don't hate you because you disagree with me. I know many people who agree with you and I don't fault them. I think I got a handle on what's going on. Believe me, I would love to have 15 minutes with any General Authority in regards to this. Set up the appointment, will you? They might be able to make me change my mind. You just never know. But I have a gut feeling that Jesus approves of my position on the issue. If I find any convincing notion that I'm wrong, I'll have no problem changing my views. Heavenly Father gave me a brain to use and think for myself. I make full use of my free moral agency and personal revelations.

[Jeff K.]

Your arguments again lack the mercy of Christ.

Indeed your argument is one rejected by the apostles and prophets. Now my question to you is, why is that? Could it be you are missing or lacking a key point raised, or refuse to see it?

In conversation with the Bishop about going to college, the young man disclosed that his visa had expired. The next day, the Bishop asked to have a talk with him and he was told that he was loved. However, he was also given a refund on his rent money and asked to move out of the basement apartment as soon as possible. Why? His Bishop simply told him that because his visa had expired, he was therefore violating the terms of his visa and not in obedience with the laws of the land and that the Bishop could not aide and abet a law-breaker into this home! Simple as that. The young man, confused and dazed ended up moving into the home of a divorced LDS member. Within one month from this incident, the young man was arrested at work by the INS, put in jail for 2 weeks and asked to leave the country on a voluntary basis or face deportation at the government's expense. While in jail, he had no rights. No even the right to make a phone call. The law treated him worse than the worst criminal and for 2 days nobody knew what had happened to him until his girlfriend (LDS) had contacted his place of work and the manager told her that he had been cuffed and arrested by 2 undercover INS agents. He then flew back to his home country. There he went serve an honorable 2 year mission. After his mission, he found out that someone had turned him in to immigration. The Bishop? No. His girlfriend. No. His boss? No. His co-workers? No . A neighbor? No. Guess?

You know what, if that story were real, the bishop would have been reprimmanded or removed. Imagine that, a temple recommend holder kicked out of a home. A man worthy of the Lord's house, somehow not worthy of a bishops? Does the bishop actually believe his home to be more holy and pure than a temple? Or was he simply using a "gut" reaction to the pitiful foriegner? Thus I question the validity of such a true story. Another one of those hopeful "I am doing something wrong but a bishop did it" story. It burns me when stories like this come out, because it undermines the basis we have in Christ and replaces it as a worthiness towards Caeser.

There is no reason to lie and cheat and to condone cheating or illegal activity. That's why the Lord said what he said in the D&C scripture I quoted earlier, that he expects us to obey the laws of the land.

Is this before or after polygamy?

By the way, I don't hate you because you disagree with me. I know many people who agree with you and I don't fault them. I think I got a handle on what's going on. Believe me, I would love to have 15 minutes with any General Authority in regards to this. Set up the appointment, will you? They might be able to make me change my mind. You just never know. But I have a gut feeling that Jesus approves of my position on the issue. If I find any convincing notion that I'm wrong, I'll have no problem changing my views. Heavenly Father gave me a brain to use and think for myself. I make full use of my free moral agency and personal revelations.

I am sure if the Church comes out in favor of accomodating people who don't have their documents in the US, you would of course resign your membership, it is that important to you. I of course will understand and have a "handle" on what the Lord and his church are trying to do. I don't need a "gut" feeling. I have the policy that the prophet and apostles have in place, I have my support of them, I have prayed about it. And unlike you, I at one time had the opposite view, kind of harsh and uncaring, like yours. I changed because the Lord changed my heart in that direction. I changed because I could not see how the church could have an opposite view than the one I had and began a journey of prayer and understanding, which led to callings (which I did not ask for) among hispanic ward members. You have a "gut" feeling? I have the Lord's messenger, apostles, the Lord's church. You may want to re-examine your 'guts' and find out why you aren't in harmony with the Lords servants and why the path you desire for temple recommend holders, the one of poverty, destitution, and in lives as they and their families are pushed to the edge, why you somehow believe that is what Christ wants.

[Jeff K.]

Post script:

It is not that difficult to make an appointment with a Stake President or even a General Authority if you feel strongly that the church is going in the wrong direction. It happens quite often.

[O-Brother]

Your arguments again lack the mercy of Christ.

Indeed your argument is one rejected by the apostles and prophets. Now my question to you is, why is that? Could it be you are missing or lacking a key point raised, or refuse to see it?

My argument is based on solid D&C scripture and the Articles of Faith #12 and #13 taught to members of the Church since Joseph received the revelation from Jesus Christ himself and supported by prophets and apostles for generations. So your unfounded accusation is bogus at best. Modern prophets and apostles have never come out and stated that cheating is OK. You're the only saying that. The mercy of Christ has nothing to do with violating the laws of the land or He would not have said that and His words shall NOT pass away because you think otherwise:

The Saints in Zion the Lord said:

[alter idem]

Do you really want a Church where a growing number of its members are breaking laws and while at it, still advancing in the Priesthood, serving missions and attending the temple? Think about it. Pray about it. I have.

Look around. Were you not aware that this is already the way things are within the church? If you have a problem with it, then you need to 'pray about it'. Those who are at peace with the church's position on this aren't the ones who need to reconcile conflicting attitudes.

Some seem to want to think there should be no argument on this topic by insisting that this is the law of the land and we should obey it. I would remind them of the example from the Savior's life of the woman taken in adultery.

Jesus knew it was the Law of Moses, they pointed it out to him when they brought her there to be condemned for having broken it. Yet, Jesus chose compassion over the Law. And he did it to show us the way. He wanted us to take into account how he viewed people and situations when making decisions in our own lives.

I think that those who take a hard line on illegal immigration and want the church to do the same are the ones who need to worry about the position they are defending, not those who support the Prophet's position--which is clearly one of compassion.

Church members and leaders hold differing views on this, no doubt you can find people who will defend both sides, but there can be no doubt of the Prophet's position.

President Monson has chosen compassion over the Law.

[O-Brother]

Look around. Were you not aware that this is already the way things are within the church? If you have a problem with it, then you need to 'pray about it'. Those who are at peace with the church's position on this aren't the ones who need to reconcile conflicting attitudes.

Some seem to want to think there should be no argument on this topic by insisting that this is the law of the land and we should obey it. I would remind them of the example from the Savior's life of the woman taken in adultery.

Jesus knew it was the Law of Moses, they pointed it out to him when they brought her there to be condemned for having broken it. Yet, Jesus chose compassion over the Law. And he did it to show us the way. He wanted us to take into account how he viewed people and situations when making decisions in our own lives.

I think that those who take a hard line on illegal immigration and want the church to do the same are the ones who need to worry about the position they are defending, not those who support the Prophet's position--which is clearly one of compassion.

Church members and leaders hold differing views on this, no doubt you can find people who will defend both sides, but there can be no doubt of the Prophet's position.

President Monson has chosen compassion over the Law.

When and where did President Monson state that he has chosen compassion over the law and that he expects us to do the same? I must have missed that talk or official statement.

An article written and published in the Deseret News, regarding statements made during the Interfaith Dialogue on Immigration at Westminster College by Elder Marlin K. Jensen, of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

[thesometimesaint]

If you have done it unto the least of these you have done it unto me.

[CV75]

What stance should the church evolve towards in order to meet our needs as loyal citizens as well as our needs to help brothers and sisters who stood by us in the council of heaven in order that we might all take part in the atonement?

I find that the Church takes a universal, global, and principles-driven approach that will bless each individual child of God. I do not think it looks out for the needs of loyal citizens of any particular country, but looks out for the needs of the fellow-citizens (saints), no matter where they live. This means the exercise of the priesthood keys unto salvation first: do what it takes to preach the gospel, teach the true principles, show how to exercise faith, repentance, covenants and ordinances, and encourage the saints to live worthy lives so they can enjoy the companionship of the Holy Ghost in attending to all their spiritual and temporal affairs.

The principles the Church promulgates is congruent with those nations whose constitution is based on protecting life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and for those individuals living in less fortunate countries, who, like Abraham, seek a greater "happiness, peace and rest." These sols will be drawn to the Church in whatever land they find themselves.

For this reason the Church wants its members to build Zion within their own borders. For those who leave their borders, the Church wants them to have done so under the guidance of the Spirit. For those who leave their borders against divine inspiration, the Church wants them to repent without the imposition of judgment by fellow members. For those who become saints while living outside their borders after coming without divine inspiration, the Church wants them to repent without the imposition of judgment by fellow members.

The Church will not enforce civil or criminal law any more than it will take sides in a war between countries where worthy members live and are enlisted in the fighting on both sides.

The Church will not encourage members to judge one another on the basis of their understanding of the laws within the countries where they live (in this discussion, immigration law). It will not instruct its bishops and stake presidents to judge the members on the basis of human laws. Spiritual law, yes, where members must discern the company they keep and leaders protect the Church from wolves and other spiritual or doctrinal predators.

"Are you honest in all your dealings?" is answered by the member, and the answer typically taken at face value by the Church leader unless otherwise challenged by the standard of the Holy Ghost or the Priesthood. A judgment made by application of civil or criminal law is simply not standardized in church manuals nor ratified by the Holy Ghost.

Are illegal immigrants breaking a law? Of course. Do they believe they are honest? Of course. Does the Church want people to break the law? Of course not. Does the Church want people to be honest? Of course. People can be honest without the companionship of the Holy Ghost, yet the Church wants members to enjoy this gift first and foremost. People do not necessarily lose the companionship of the Holy Ghost when they are not honest (the Spirit will strive with them, and it takes quite a bit for the Spirit to leave them altogether). At what point do honesty and keeping the law mean exactly the same thing to the same degree and result in the utter loss of the companionship of the Holy Ghost when out of whack with each other?

Members who have the Holy Spirit to guide them can take a position on either side of this issue and stand worthy before the Lord, who judges the thoughts and intents of the heart. A saint / fellow-citizen on either side will not have acrimony toward those who believe and behave contrary to their stance, since the Spirit will only guide the individual on what they need to do for their own temporal and spiritual benefit. The Spirit can tell two people with competing interests that what they are believing or doing is right, but each must recognize and remember that the Spirit instructs him only for himself, and not for the other party.

[Jeff K.]

The LDS church indeed has taken a position. When they put their support behind a law that allows missionaries who aren't documented to be exempted from immigration control, when they actively help undocumented members through stake presidencies (as I have done in my assignment) to integreat more fully (not go home). They have indeed taken a position.

All very indicative.

An LDS Church leader on Wednesday urged Utah's lawmakers to "take a step back" and hold a "spirit of compassion" as they consider a slate of bills aimed at cracking down on illegal immigration.

"Immigration questions are questions dealing with God's children," said Elder Marlin K. Jensen of the Seventy of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. "I believe a more thoughtful and factual, not to mention humane approach is warranted, and urge those responsible for enactment of Utah's immigration policy to measure twice before they cut."

As one of three religious leaders speaking at a Interfaith Dialogue on Immigration at Westminster College, Jensen urged people to put a human face on the issue.

"Meet an undocumented person," he said. "Come to know their family."

The forum came as lawmakers this session are considering several measures dealing with illegal immigration in the House. There are also two Senate measures, a comprehensive bill aimed at preventing undocumented immigrants from obtaining jobs or public benefits, and another that would create a legislative task force to study the issue.

Also speaking were Bishop John C. Wester of the Catholic Diocese of Salt Lake, and Pastor Steven Klemz of Zion Evangelical Lutheran Church. Both of those faith leaders come from traditions that have clear-cut positions supporting comprehensive federal immigration reform.

"This is a human issue; it is a moral issue," Wester said. "We must be involved."

Jensen said the LDS church has taken no position on any particular measure on the federal or state level.

"The current debate in our state Legislature is evidence of the very strong feelings that surround this issue," Jensen said. He noted that LDS leaders had recently issued a "very sincere plea" to lawmakers to consider the issue with humanity and compassion.

He said that because of the unique nature and composition of the state, lawmakers' actions this session could have national and international implications.

Jensen referred to his own great-great-grandfather, who was among those who immigrated during the LDS Church's early days.

"If there is a church that owes debt to the immigrant and the principal of immigration it is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," he said.

The event was the opening of Beyond Borders and Fronteras, an exhibit and lecture series continuing through Feb. 22. The exhibit includes "Invisible No More: Latinos Dignity March in Utah," a photo exhibit by Armando Solorzano, and "Bordering Injustice," paintings by Jimmy Lucero.

I believe a more thoughtful and factual, not to mention humane approach is warranted, and urge those responsible for enactment of Utah's immigration policy to measure twice before they cut."

Deseret News

This was in response to a denial of services for illegal immigrants in Utah, a policy I believe you support.

Comments made by an LDS Church leader this week again stirred debate in Mormon circles about whether the church should baptize illegal immigrants or allow them to enter its temples.

[b]"The church's view of someone in undocumented status is akin, in a way, to a civil trespass," said Elder Marlin K. Jensen of the Seventy, relating it to coming onto someone's property uninvited. "There is nothing inherent or wrong about that status."

Elder Jensen's comment came Wednesday during an interfaith forum on immigration at Westminster College in response to an audience question.

The LDS Church has no official policy on illegal immigration nor does it ask local clergy to question prospective converts or members seeking temple privileges about their citizenship status.

"The church does not see itself as an enforcement agency," Mark Tuttle, a spokesman for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, said Thursday, repeating earlier church statements.

That doesn't sit well with some Latter-day Saints who wonder why the church baptizes people and issues temple recommends to members who live in the country illegally. To qualify for a recommend, they must avow to a bishop and a stake president that they are honest in their dealings with others.

Some members can't reconcile church membership and illegal status, particularly in light of one of the church's Articles of Faith that states, "We believe ... in obeying, honoring and sustaining the law."

"I wonder how they'd feel about the second great commandment, to love thy neighbor as thyself. It's not an answer to your question, but it's another question. Sometimes it's hard to do them all," Tuttle said.

Discussion about how local church leaders deal with undocumented immigrants arose on the heels of remarks Elder Jensen made earlier this week.

Speaking on behalf of the First Presidency at the interfaith forum, Elder Jensen asked Utah lawmakers to consider proposed immigration legislation with a "spirit of compassion." He called for a more "thoughtful and factual, not to mention humane, approach" to the issues.

The Legislature is debating a string of get-tough-on-illegal-immigration bills including measures to revoke driver privilege cards and repeal in-state tuition options at state colleges and universities.

While reiterating the LDS Church is politically neutral, Elder Jensen noted that immigration is not only a political issue but a moral and ethical one.

Addressing the matter of baptism and temple rights for undocumented immigrants, Elder John C. Pingree, an Area Seventy, told the Deseret Morning News in 2005, "It's not a problem for me."

Questions about citizenship are not part of the formal interview local leaders conduct with people before they join the church or attend the temple, which is open only to members deemed worthy. Bishops and stake presidents look for commitment to live the tenets of the religion, he said.

Enforcing immigration law is not the role of the church, said Elder Pingree, who served as a mission president in Mexico City.

"This isn't the church's issue," he said. "This is the government's issue."

The October 2005 interview with Elder Pingree came in response to a Morning News request to the LDS Church to speak with a leader about the church's stance on illegal immigration.

His comments were included in a story headlined, "Church chooses to stay out of questions of status," which was part of a Morning News series on illegal immigration.

The church, Elder Pingree said, does everything it can to encourage its members to stay in their home countries to strengthen local stakes and wards. "But once they're here, we want to make them feel like part of the community, a valued part of the community," he said.

Tuttle said Thursday that statements Elder Pingree made then remain accurate

Deseret News

The church's view of someone in undocumented status is akin, in a way, to a civil trespass," said Elder Marlin K. Jensen of the Seventy, relating it to coming onto someone's property uninvited. "There is nothing inherent or wrong about that status

Elder Pingree said, does everything it can to encourage its members to stay in their home countries to strengthen local stakes and wards. "But once they're here, we want to make them feel like part of the community, a valued part of the community

How is that reconciled with your more draconian view?

[Jeff K.]

The church's view of someone in undocumented status is akin, in a way, to a civil trespass," said Elder Marlin K. Jensen of the Seventy, relating it to coming onto someone's property uninvited. "There is nothing inherent or wrong about that status

This in effect dictates clearly how we treat them. We do not kick them out of our homes, we do not make them a pariah, we do not drive them back to poverty. I feel strongly when someone callously says "not my problem" because it overlooks the humanity of what we are dealing with. The approach should never be dismissal or "deal with it". Nor do I advocate open borders as some do. I think step one should be an immediate stronger presence to mitigate the need for such compassion and tis costs in the future. But if you are here in this great nation, and if you are attempting to live up to the best part of who we are, then by all means, you should be welcomed.

[Mormon Dude]

When I was on my Mission in Southern California the wards were not allowed to give out ward rosters, even to the Members or Missionaries, for fear they could be used in the wrong hands to round up illegal emigrants.

Also I do remember a General Authority that came to speak to us missionaries, and he said something to the effect that illegal emigrants come to the United States so they can learn the Gospel (Even though they don't know it and think they are coming to work), but I don't remember who it was exactly or when it was exactly, so please don't quote me on that one.

[CV75]

The LDS church indeed has taken a position. When they put their support behind a law that allows missionaries who aren't documented to be exempted from immigration control, when they actively help undocumented members through stake presidencies (as I have done in my assignment) to integreat more fully (not go home). They have indeed taken a position.

The position on these issues is limited to providing opportunities and protection for missionary work; promoting the principle of integrating saints as fellow-citizens of the Kingdom that is not of this world; meeting people where they stand to prompt their salvation; taking the "human cost" into account while writing, passing and enforcing laws (that laws should be "good"); It is not taking the position that a nation should not have immigration laws and enforce them; that the saints should seek to break those laws; or, that it is in the business of enforcing a nation's laws. If it ever gets into a constitutional matter, the Church will almost certainly become involved.

[frankenstein]

8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God

[ERayR]

8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God

[Calm]

Eat, drink, and be merry

Hmmm...encouraging people to repent, be baptized, go to the temple, serve missions, be good family members, good neighbours....yea, that's the same as telling them to "eat, drink and be merry".

[Jeff K.]

The position on these issues is limited to providing opportunities and protection for missionary work; promoting the principle of integrating saints as fellow-citizens of the Kingdom that is not of this world; meeting people where they stand to prompt their salvation; taking the "human cost" into account while writing, passing and enforcing laws (that laws should be "good"); It is not taking the position that a nation should not have immigration laws and enforce them; that the saints should seek to break those laws; or, that it is in the business of enforcing a nation's laws. If it ever gets into a constitutional matter, the Church will almost certainly become involved.

Nice spin but it leaves out this telling quote:

The church's view of someone in undocumented status is akin, in a way, to a civil trespass," said Elder Marlin K. Jensen of the Seventy, relating it to coming onto someone's property uninvited. "There is nothing inherent or wrong about that status

[ERayR]

When the US Government gets serious about enforcement of immigration laws then I will revisit my opinion. Until then I don't think the church should become an enforcement arm of the US Government.

[CV75]

Nice spin but it leaves out this telling quote:

Elder Jensen's quote falls under my so-called "spin" "fellow-citizens of the Kingdom that is not of this world." Now that I see how you create spin of non-spin, adios.

[alter idem]

When and where did President Monson state that he has chosen compassion over the law and that he expects us to do the same? I must have missed that talk or official statement.

Yea, apparently you DID miss it. You seem unable to see that the church's position, under the leadership of the Prophet, is the compassionate stance and he expects to lead by example.

An article written and published in the Deseret News, regarding statements made during the Interfaith Dialogue on Immigration at Westminster College by Elder Marlin K. Jensen, of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints