The Church and members who aren't documented

[Vindicator]

V, you've been around here long enough to know that threads get closed if they are not about LDS topics. I feel no obligation or desire to derail the thread into a discussion of illegal immigration. The only reason we are able to discuss it is because it is about how the church chooses to deal with it.

I see no reason to do so--I quoted the post when I made this remark.

If I'm married to a Bishop, don't you think I have a temple recommend?

Or maybe you missed that when you missed my call for reference.

Your schtick is getting old.

Vindicator, This is a second call for reference;

You need to back up this ridiculous claim you made or withdraw it:

Alter Idem,

I'm still a little bit new in here. CFR to me has always meant to provide proof in writing or video or speach or doctrine or scripture to back something up. How can I CFR what a Bishop told me? Give you his name? I don't think that is appropriate. What else can I do? Help me out here! If you told me your husband "a former Bishop?" told you something would you put his name in here? Probably not. So help me out on how to CFR or show me where in the rules that a Ward Bishop talking to his hometeaching family can be CFR'd and I'll do my best.

I went back over the posts and I didn't see the letters CFR on any of them from you.

Thanks,

Vindicator- ( gotta run for now) P.S. you also informed me that having a Temple recommend or not was none of my business. I apologized.

[toon]

What will it take for you to see what the overwhelming consequences of Illegals pouring into this country will create. . . . The complete collapse of our education system where your children will be the minorities in the class room. . . . Or until you and yours are the minority and we have to adjust to their culture?

I'm not going to address all the purported consequences you claim will happen, as I'm pretty sure this is already going off topic. But I couldn't let the above just pass without any response. I could care less if my children are minorities in the classroom. I could care less if I become part of the minorty. And the funny thing about culture -- it changes, and people adjust. I'm sure you're not trying to be racist, but can you see how your post comes across as that?

[toon]

I certainly recognize a tension between "obeying, honoring and sustaining the law" and illegal immigration and document fraud. But I have no problem if individual member and prospective members are left to resolve that tension as they see and feel appropriate, with prayer and God's help. And if necessary, with the guidance and assistance of their local Church leaders.

I have no problem if the Church looks the other way (as it's being characterized here) when an illegal immigrant seeks baptism. The Church is for sinners, and I don't think that we require that all aspects of a person's life be placed in order before baptism. What about the individual that lied on his job application? Does he have to fess up to his boss at the risk of being fired before he can be worthy of baptism? What about the person that overstated a few deductions on his tax return a few years back? What about the person who habitually violates traffic laws? Don't we leave these issues up to the individual? What's so different about illegal immigration?

I feel similarly about the temple recommend process. If someone feels they can answer all the questions honestly and in good faith, why deny the recommend? Perhaps he's rationalizing and justifying his sin and being disingenuous. But maybe he truly feels that it is not so serious a sin that he should not go to the temple. Do we really require members to be without sin before entering the temple? Do we really require that all aspects of their lives be in perfect order?

[alter idem]

Alter Idem,

I'm still a little bit new in here. CFR to me has always meant to provide proof in writing or video or speach or doctrine or scripture to back something up. How can I CFR what a Bishop told me? Give you his name? I don't think that is appropriate. What else can I do? Help me out here! If you told me your husband "a former Bishop?" told you something would you put his name in here? Probably not. So help me out on how to CFR or show me where in the rules that a Ward Bishop talking to his hometeaching family can be CFR'd and I'll do my best.

I went back over the posts and I didn't see the letters CFR on any of them from you.

Well, look again. I didn't use the letters CFR, I said 'call for reference' and it was even bolded.

I am really tired of your games, too. And I'm tired of you not reading things carefully and then making inaccurate statements. My husband is not a 'former Bishop' he is a current Bishop.

If there's no way to back up your claim, then I guess we're at an impasse. But for the record, your statement is incorrect and gives non-members a false picture of how adultery is handled by LDS Bishops.

Thanks,

Vindicator- ( gotta run for now) P.S. you also informed me that having a Temple recommend or not was none of my business. I apologized.

Accuracy matters..once again, I saw no apology so I don't know why you said this.

[Jeff K.]

I certainly recognize a tension between "obeying, honoring and sustaining the law" and illegal immigration and document fraud. But I have no problem if individual member and prospective members are left to resolve that tension as they see and feel appropriate, with prayer and God's help. And if necessary, with the guidance and assistance of their local Church leaders.

I have no problem if the Church looks the other way (as it's being characterized here) when an illegal immigrant seeks baptism. The Church is for sinners, and I don't think that we require that all aspects of a person's life be placed in order before baptism. What about the individual that lied on his job application? Does he have to fess up to his boss at the risk of being fired before he can be worthy of baptism? What about the person that overstated a few deductions on his tax return a few years back? What about the person who habitually violates traffic laws? Don't we leave these issues up to the individual? What's so different about illegal immigration?

I feel similarly about the temple recommend process. If someone feels they can answer all the questions honestly and in good faith, why deny the recommend? Perhaps he's rationalizing and justifying his sin and being disingenuous. But maybe he truly feels that it is not so serious a sin that he should not go to the temple. Do we really require members to be without sin before entering the temple? Do we really require that all aspects of their lives be in perfect order?

I agree the tensions are high in regard to those who are in the US illegally. For many in politics it is a single issue question for how they will vote, it is important to them. Heck, I used to be one of them and felt as equally passionate. But sometimes, when we are servants we see things from a different perspective. I think the prophet and apostles are indeed looking a servants of Christ whose compassion must reign. I look to them for a lead as to where to go and how to approach the issue. I continue to seek their counsel on an issue which impacts our members so clearly. I see wonderful people who are trying very hard to assimilate and make a life for themselves.

I think there are some doctrines that are more important than others. A man made law is proving to be a immense burden to our brethern, and we offer salvation to all regardless of how they have approached us. Again, a strong border will stop the hemorrage from occurring or rather re-occurring. But for those who are here, I will quote "The church does everything it can to encourage its members to stay in their home countries to strengthen local stakes and wards. But once they're here, we want to make them feel like part of the community, a valued part of the community,"

I think this shows us the way to go.

[O-Brother]

You posted that the church considers illegals to be trespassers and not too long we learned that trespassers are hypocritically singled out and the police are called to charge the trespasser and then signs are changed to make the no trespassing message more explicit.

Looks like we've got ourselves and interesting situation in regards to illegal immigration. Sometimes I can't believe the things I read and the distortions wrapped around the issue. I admit that it's been educational. It appears that, according to many here, the Church and and its top leaders are pro illegal immigration, period. All I can say is, WOW. I never thought I'd see this day. Right after I joined the Church, my brother said to me: "Are you sure you made the right decision?" I said, "Yeah, the LDS Church is pretty straight and it's not all about money. It's got solid doctrines and I like it." He said:"OK."

I will call him now and let him know that the Church is pro illegal immigration and see what he says. He is a Free Mason. I am going to ask him what the Free Masons think about illegal immigration. My brother lives outside the United States and the country he lives in doesn't have too many problems because of strict immigration laws.

FYI, here's an interesting immigration story:

By Murray Sabrin

My parents were the only Holocaust survivors from their respective families in their native Poland. After being liberated in July 1944, they settled in Germany in 1946 and decided to come to America in 1949. Dad wrote his great aunt and soon thereafter got the family's "papers" to come to America, legally. On August 6, 1949 my parents, older brother and I arrived in New York City after several days crossing the Atlantic Ocean. My father's great aunt lived in New York and raised his mother, who came to America with her aunt at the turn of the last century. My paternal grandmother grew up in America in the early 20th century, returned to her native Poland, married and raised a family, only to perish in the Holocaust. My family's journey to America was no different than that of hundreds of thousands of Eastern European Jews and others who came to America for freedom and opportunity, so their children could grow up in peace in a land that had welcomed tens of millions of immigrants throughout its history. Our family came to America following all the rules and regulations the federal government had created in order to have an orderly flow of immigrants. Although there were individuals and families who have come to America illegally, the numbers were not substantial, except for the number of Mexican citizens who were coming to the U.S. illegally in the late 1940s and early 1950s. After Dwight Eisenhower was elected president in 1952, he began "Operation Wetback" to deal with the illegal immigration issue in America's Southwest. The illegal immigrant issue was not to become a lightning rod in America until the 1980s. After a number of attempts at reform, the issue is more than a lighting rod, it has gone "nuclear." Witness the recent pro and anti-illegal immigration rally in Morristown.

The way I deal with immigration is quite simple. If you are a homeowner and someone you didn't invite to your house is sitting on your front step or porch, or is lounging in your living room, that person is early trespassing. You have the right to evict him (or them), or call the police to evict the trespasser. No one has a right to be on someone's property without the permission of the property owner. Does anyone disagree with this fundamental principle of property rights? By the same token, no one has the right to immigrate to another nation, unless he follows the rules and regulations the elected officials of that country have established for legal entry. Every nation protects its borders in order to have an orderly immigration policy. That is not controversial. Nor should it be. President Bush should announce that all illegal immigrants have an option. Return to your native lands and begin the process of legal immigration. If you do not, you will never have the ability to become a U.S. citizen, and you will pay a hefty fine and be deported if your status is discovered by the INS. America will continue to welcome immigrants as long as they follow the rules my parents and millions of others have followed during the past 200 years.

SOURCE: Opinion From New Jersey

[ERayR]

Let me ask you some blunt questions and I hope you answer them:

1. If an LDS member (legal, illegal or citizen) uses someone else's social security number to work, are you OK with it?

2. If an LDS member (legal, illegal or citizen) obtains employment he or she is not legally entitled to, are you OK with it?

3. If a person's is breaking ANY law of the land for which there is no remedy (i.e, a fine, a traffic class, bail or bond) and receives the Priesthood or Priesthood callings, are you oK with it?

4. If a person who's in violation of the law of the land for which there is no remedy, are you OK with that person representing the Church in the mission field? (U.S. only, of course).

Lastly, you seem to be 100% positive that Church leaders are in favor of illegal immigration and are in support of it as far as taking care of (missions, callings, temples, etc.) of the illegal LDS immigrants who are already here. If that's the case, I think we've got a serious problem with serious implications. That's why I don't believe that the First Presidency is pro-illegal immigration because it would make no sense to me. That would go contrary to everything I've been taught since I got converted. Now, if that's really the way it is, boy, I will have to make some adjustments in my thinking and figure out how to deal with it. Maybe it's not you who's in denial. Maybe it's me. Heck, maybe the Church is pro illegal immigration and the 12th and the 13th AOF mean squat.

Wow. That would feel like a marriage proposal gone wrong where the girls says: "No thanks!"

Maybe you and Jeff K are right. The LDS Church is indeed pro illegal immigration, we do send illegal immigrants on missions, temples and they obtain the Priesthood, perform ordinances and even baptize other illegal immigrants. Wow. Is that what I am supposed to accept as our new reality in 2010 and beyond? If that's the truth, I have to do some serious thinking. It doesn't shake my testimony in Jesus Christ the least, but man, that feels like a slap in the face.

Hmmm... Maybe we should do a poll and see how many people are pro illegal immigration and how many are against. If we are against, are you saying that we're not being obedient to the First Presidency position on the issue? Are we the minority of disobedient and misinformed members?

If so, I got a problem. Defenders of the law and the AOF got a problem. Maybe this is indeed the last days where the very elect will be deceived. Which one of us has been deceived? The ones in favor of illegal immigration or the ones against? Have I been holding the wrong beliefs all these years about what we stand for and believe in?

This thread is not about being pro-illegal immigration its about extending Gospel blessings to all of God's children. Solving illegal immigration is a seperate issue. The problem is that you seem to conflate the two.

[rodheadlee]

So, what law gave Juan Cabrillo the right to claim California for Spain, who gave Commodore John D Sloat the right to claim California for the United States? Might makes right?? Whoever conquers me, I have to submit to their laws or is it considered righteous to fight until prevailing or dying? If you want to start nitpicking we can start giving the land back to the rightful owners. Many Mexicans consider us squatters, to them illegal immigration is a form of rebellion and they are doing nothing wrong in their eyes, give the land back to the indigenous natives. What about the rest of the US? How many Indian Treaties has this country reneged on? If you want to get all worked up google Azatlan. There is some other organization with the same goal but I can't remember the name of it.

[Jeff K.]

So, what law gave Juan Cabrillo the right to claim California for Spain, who gave Commodore John D Sloat the right to claim California for the United States? Might makes right?? Whoever conquers me, I have to submit to their laws or is it considered righteous to fight until prevailing or dying? If you want to start nitpicking we can start giving the land back to the rightful owners. Many Mexicans consider us squatters, to them illegal immigration is a form of rebellion and they are doing nothing wrong in their eyes, give the land back to the indigenous natives. What about the rest of the US? How many Indian Treaties has this country reneged on? If you want to get all worked up google Azatlan. There is some other organization with the same goal but I can't remember the name of it.

I really don't want to get into the historical geopolitical analysis of the Americas. Whether the Aztecs or Mejeeca conquered other tribes who conquered prior tribes and then in turn was conquered by Spaniards, and so on is, I think, irrelevant. I would like to point out that those members I have worked with are very open with me, and the one thing they definately are not is rebellious towards the US. In fact most of them are grateful for the opportunities the US has afforded them. The breaking of Indian treaties and the history of the US, or Mexico in relation to native Americans (Geronimo aka Goyate only hated one group of people more than anglos, that was the Mexican government and people who massacred his family). As I said, it isn't about pointing the finger, we could go back generations, indeed we could keep blaming for another hundred years for another hundred other presumed and real outrages. I am talking about now, members who are here now, and compassion, which may in effect break the cycle we are seeing.

Again, very strong borders as a preventative measure which stops the trauma, and accomodation for those who are here who have no record of criminality.

[O-Brother]

This thread is not about being pro-illegal immigration its about extending Gospel blessings to all of God's children. Solving illegal immigration is a seperate issue. The problem is that you seem to conflate the two.

OK. Thanks. I must have been a little slow learner about illegal immigration and the Church. It's not what I thought. After further research, it appears that the stance on illegal immigration IS indeed coming from the top leadership of the Church and that's why so many members are following the same line of thinking. I was under the impression that the AOF and other scriptures were pretty solid on the issue but apparently that's not the case.

The scriptures that I thought substantiated my line of thinking have no effect on the current position of the Church. I was under the impression that in order to be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost and officiate in the Priesthood that members were supposed to be in good standing with the laws of the land, be honest in their dealings with their fellow men and repent of anything that was not in order with themselves, others and the law.

Obviously that is no longer the case as far as illegal immigrants are concerned. Everything I've been taught since my conversion, in terms of honesty and obedience to laws has proven to be incorrect. I think I've been blind and didn't quite see things for what they are now. Statements from spokespersons, actions from the Church and the leadership plus members attitudes seem to point to a new way of thinking or ideology within the Church. It's one of those things you look at and scratch your head because it seems so illogical to me. You get that "I just missed the train" feeling when you arrive at the train station.

I think I understand where the Church is going with all of this. I will be an observer and see what happens because at this point it looks like any debate on the subject is unproductive. The thinking has already been done at the top. Apparently the Savior too is in favor of what's going on so I won't argue. I did think that Jesus was all about strict laws and "order" based on what I had studied. I think things changed along the way and I didn't quite get the memo.

Living and learning I guess. I have a sense of wasted brain energy thinking that I was fighting for righteousness and dwelling on a logical realm. The Church will continue to baptize illegal immigrants, send them on U.S. only missions, give them temple recommends, allow temple ordinances, give them the Priesthood and offices thereof, treat them as if nothing was wrong about their day-to-day operations in society and disregard for other people's social security numbers, earnings and tithes from unauthorized employment. The weight of illegal immigration and its effects on society seems to have no significance to most LDS members. Compassion and mercy have new definitions. I was going by old ones. I think my type of member, along with a few others like me, are now considered Church dinosaurs, dwelling in an old era of old values that no longer apply.

Even my wife now says: "Give it up. You're wasting your time. You're not going anywhere with this."

I think she's right. The Church, members and the Government will eventually sort things out.

[Jeff K.]

Even my wife now says: "Give it up. You're wasting your time. You're not going anywhere with this."

My wife says that to me more often than not too.

I think she's right. The Church, members and the Government will eventually sort things out.

In the end I think that is the best we can all hope for. It doesn't mean you aren't right in some of your observations. My hope is that you are seeing the worst case scenario which doesn't come about, and that my best case scenario does. I think in the end we will both the muddling in the middle somewhere.

[rodheadlee]

I really don't want to get into the historical geopolitical analysis of the Americas. Whether the Aztecs or Mejeeca conquered other tribes who conquered prior tribes and then in turn was conquered by Spaniards, and so on is, I think, irrelevant. I would like to point out that those members I have worked with are very open with me, and the one thing they definately are not is rebellious towards the US. In fact most of them are grateful for the opportunities the US has afforded them. The breaking of Indian treaties and the history of the US, or Mexico in relation to native Americans (Geronimo aka Goyate only hated one group of people more than anglos, that was the Mexican government and people who massacred his family). As I said, it isn't about pointing the finger, we could go back generations, indeed we could keep blaming for another hundred years for another hundred other presumed and real outrages. I am talking about now, members who are here now, and compassion, which may in effect break the cycle we are seeing.

Again, very strong borders as a preventative measure which stops the trauma, and accomodation for those who are here who have no record of criminality.

Sorry for the derail, but I've spent more than 2 years in Mexico and I had an attitude change towards immigration as a result. We are not the owners of the land, just the current landlord.

[Jeff K.]

Really no worries about the derail, my big thing is keeping it church oriented so as not to go into lockdown mode for the thread.

I lived in Mexico about six years doing business for a US firm. In a sense I know where are coming from, but landlord or not, property rights or not, posession is nine tenths of internaional law. Many of the members I spoke with decry the Mexican American War as unjust, but feel the results were much better than the alternative, even they admit they would not like California to be an extension of Tijuana/Baja California....

[O-Brother]

My wife says that to me more often than not too.

In the end I think that is the best we can all hope for. It doesn't mean you aren't right in some of your observations. My hope is that you are seeing the worst case scenario which doesn't come about, and that my best case scenario does. I think in the end we will both the muddling in the middle somewhere.

Well, I've decided to go back to my roots. I obviously can't reconcile things the way some of you have on this particular issue. Based on past experience, missionary visa mishaps in the Guyana (50 missionaries expelled)

http://lds-law.org/2...led-from-guyana

visa mishaps in my own mission where, per our Mission President's request in part because of my language skills, I ended up being the one to intercede on behalf of six missionaries on "tourist visas" when the law of the country required "pastor" visas instead. The whole issue of mercy and compassion having different meanings to different people, trumping the 12th and 13th articles of faith, ~50, 000 Utah children with stolen social security numbers not meaning squat and all the other reasons posted here, it's hard for me (I'm a little slow) to feel like we're heading in the right direction as a whole.

If I were a Bishop or Stake President, I couldn't go along with the current position of the Church on this issue. I could not, in good conscience be ordaining illegal immigrants to the offices of the Priesthood, send them on missions or feel good about ANYONE, legal, citizen or illegal, entering the House of the Lord (A house of order) while still in no compliance with the core beliefs of the restored Gospel. They and I and everyone else would have to repent of, provide restitution for and fix whatever problems precludes them from being honest during a temple interview or mission, otherwise, I would feel like I would be mocking the Lord.

I have a hard time understanding how mercy and compassion make concessions toward illegal activity for gain (jobs, higher wages, better life, education, benefits, etc.) or Church membership with pending ethical and legal issues such as obtaining jobs at the expense of other people's identity and how tithes can proceed from unauthorized labor. This doesn't sound right to me.

Having been to Mexico and Central America and knowing many Latin people, I don't buy the "starvation" argument. In fact, in Utah, many illegal immigrants are making lots of money and sending it home, tax free. I know one particular person who's making nearly $1,000,000 in income per year and whose employees are primarily illegal immigrants. He is legal after marrying an American lady. He's in the automotive business. I also know of other individuals, many of whom are illegal, who run several retail outlets who are doing very well economically and they too send money back home, tax free. Like the United States, Mexico has its poor, its middle-class and its rich. We have scores of American companies doing business there. Just like here, Mexico and Central America have people who are going hungry and similarly, they also have a segment of the population that's going homeless and living in poverty. Our huge LDS membership in Mexico has a lot to do with our position on illegal immigration. Mexico has some of the nicest temples and nicest ward buildings. Some of the nicest people too and conversion rates. It's not that bad of a place to live. When I was younger, I not only visited Mexico but I knew many people from there and later even did business in Mexico City. The most t prudent Mexican LDS members that I know come here with tourists visas and others come here to be nannies, all legally. Most of our illegal immigrant problems stems from Mexico and Central America. Visa overstays from other countries are not the primary problem and Mexico accounts for 56%+ of illegal immigrants into this country according to Pew Hispanic Studies. It's safe to say that Mexico has a monopoly on illegal immigration issues. You hear little or nothing about other ethnic groups. As for "starving", consider the following information:

3-1-2009 WASHINGTON (Reuters) - More than 49 million Americans -- one in seven -- struggled to get enough to eat in 2008, the highest total in 14 years of a federal survey on "food insecurity," the U.S. government said Monday. While Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack said programs such as food stamps softened the impact of an economic recession, anti-hunger groups pointed to the huge increase from the preceding year when 36.2 million people had trouble getting enough food and a third of them occasionally went hungry.

"The survey suggested that things could be much worse but for the fact that we have extensive food assistance programs," Vilsack told reporters. "This is a great opportunity to put a spotlight on this problem." About 14.6 percent of U.S. households, equal to 49.1 million people, "had difficulty obtaining food for all their members due to a lack of resources" during 2008, up 3.5 percentage points from 2007 when 11.1 percent of households were classified as food insecure.

Ironically, while many are going without, America also suffers from glutony in some cases, disease in others or carelessness, causing more than 1/3 of our population to be obese. Feast or famine. So we too have problems at different extremes. http://www.reuters.c...E50863H20090109

As far as illegal immigrants starving, I would agree if we were talking about Africa or Ethiopia or if their lives were being threatened by genocide or war. Having worked closely with immigration issues and coming from a family of legal immigrants myself, I don't buy most of the defensive opinions I see online. There are a lot of words without knowledge going around. Perhaps I'm becoming apostatized because of this issue and need some enlightenment and repentance so I will be talking to my Stake President as soon as he's available.

Illegal activity and any condoning thereof doesn't sit right with me, unless I look the other way and pretend it's OK. A tsunami looks harmless until it hits the coast. Complacency and rationalizations are spiritual tsunamis.

P.S.: If the new ideology is what I see, then I'll have to be reconverted to accept the new norm and not worry about confessing any parking tickets or going 5 miles over the speed limit since it's all the same now.

[Vindicator]

Well, I've decided to go back to my roots. I obviously can't reconcile things the way some of you have on this particular issue. Based on past experience, missionary visa mishaps in the Guyana (50 missionaries expelled)

http://lds-law.org/2...led-from-guyana

visa mishaps in my own mission where, per mission president's request based on my language skills, I ended up being the one to intercede on behalf of six missionaries on "tourist visas" when the law of the country required "pastor" visas instead, the whole issue of mercy and compassion having different meanings to different people, articles of faith #12 and #13 apparently having no meaning anymore, ~50, 000 Utah children with stolen social security numbers not meaning squat and all the other reasons posted here, it's hard for me (I'm a little slow) to feel like we're heading in the right direction as a whole.

If I were a Bishop or Stake President, I couldn't go along with the current position of the Church on this issue. I could not, in good conscience be ordaining illegal immigrants to the offices of the Priesthood or feel good about ANYONE, legal, citizen or illegal, entering the House of the Lord (A house of order) while still living in no compliance with the core beliefs of the restored Gospel. They and I and everyone else would have to repent of, provide restitution for and fix whatever problems precludes them from being honest during a temple interview or mission, otherwise, I would feel like I would be mocking the Lord.

I have a hard time understanding how mercy and compassion make concessions toward illegal activity for gain (jobs, higher wages, better life, education, benefits, etc.) or Church membership at the expense of other people's identity and how tithes can proceed from unauthorized labor. This doesn't sound right to me.

Having been to Mexico and Central America and knowing many Latin people, I don't buy the "starvation" argument. In fact, in Utah, many illegal immigrants are making lots of money and sending it home, tax free. I know one particular person who's making nearly $1,000,000 in income per year and whose employees are primarily illegal immigrants. He is legal after marrying an American lady. He's in the automotive business. I also know of other individuals, many of whom are illegal, who run several retail outlets who are doing very well economically and they too send money back home, tax free. Like the United States, Mexico has its poor, its middle-class and its rich. We have scores of American companies doing business there. Just like here, Mexico and Central America have people who are going hungry and similarly, they also have a segment of the population that's going homeless and living in poverty. Our huge LDS membership in Mexico has a lot to do with our position on illegal immigration. Mexico has some of the nicest temples and nicest ward buildings. Some of the nicest people too and conversion rates. It's not that bad of a place to live. When I was younger, I not only visited Mexico but I knew many people from there and later even did business in Mexico City. The most t prudent Mexican LDS members that I know come here with tourists visas and others come here to be nannies, all legally. Most of our illegal immigrant problems stems from Mexico and Central America. Visa overstays from other countries are not the primary problem and Mexico accounts for 56%+ of illegal immigrants into this country according to Pew Hispanic Studies. It's safe to say that Mexico has a monopoly on illegal immigration issues. You hear little or nothing about other ethnic groups. As for "starving", consider the following information:

Ironically, while many are going without, America also suffers from glutony in some cases, disease in others or carelessness, causing more than 1/3 of our population to be obese. Feast or famine. So we too have problems at different extremes. http://www.reuters.c...E50863H20090109

As far as illegal immigrants starving, I would agree if we were talking about Africa or Ethiopia or if their lives were being threatened by genocide or war. Having worked closely with immigration issues and coming from a family of legal immigrants myself, I don't buy most of the defensive opinions I see online. There are a lot of words without knowledge going around. Perhaps I'm becoming apostatized because of this issue and need some enlightenment and repentance so I will be talking to my Stake President as soon as he's available.

Illegal activity and any condoning thereof doesn't sit right with me, unless I look the other way and pretend it's OK. A tsunami looks harmless until it hits the coast. Complacency and rationalizations are spiritual tsunamis.

O-Brother,

Keep the faith my Priesthood Brother,

It's not in our Stewardship, it's in the Church leaderships Stewardship and if they want to encourage this we just have to believe in that "Belief System". Keep your own values dear. Those especially that are conservative.

It's all good!

You expressed my thoughts precisely.

Vindicator-

By Frosty Wooldridge

For 15 years, from the mid 1970's to 1990, I worked in Detroit, Michigan. I watched it descend into the abyss of crime, debauchery, gun play, drugs, school truancy, car-jacking, gangs and human depravity. I watched entire city blocks burned out. I watched graffiti explode on buildings, cars, trucks, buses and school yards. Trash everywhere!

Detroiters walked through it, tossed more into it and ignored it. Tens of thousands and then, hundreds of thousands today exist on federal welfare, free housing and food stamps!

With Aid to Dependent Children, minority women birthed eight to 10 and in one case, one woman birthed 24 kids as reported by the Detroit Free Press-all on American taxpayer dollars.

A new child meant a new car payment, new TV and whatever mom wanted. I saw Lyndon Baines Johnson's "Great Society" flourish in

Detroit. If you give money for doing nothing, you will get more hands out taking money for doing nothing.

Mayor Coleman Young, perhaps the most corrupt mayor in America, outside of Richard Daley in Chicago, rode Detroit down to its knees. He set the benchmark for cronyism, incompetence and arrogance. As a black man, he said, "I am the MFIC." The IC meant 'in charge'. You can figure out the rest. Detroit became a majority black city with 67 percent African-Americans. As a United Van Lines truck driver for my summer job from teaching math and science, I loaded hundreds of American families into my van for a new life in another city or state.

Detroit plummeted from 1.8 million citizens to 912,000 today. At the same time, legal and illegal immigrants converged on the city, so much so, that Muslims number over 300,000. Mexicans number 400,000 throughout Michigan, but most work in

Detroit. As the whites moved out, the Muslims moved in.

As the crimes became more violent, the whites fled. Finally, unlawful Mexicans moved in at a torrid pace. Detroit suffers so much shoplifting that grocery stores no longer operate in many inner city locations. You could cut the racial tension in the air with a knife!

Detroit may be one our best examples of multiculturalism: pure dislike and total separation from America ...

Today, you hear Muslim calls to worship over the city like a new American Baghdad with hundreds of Islamic mosques in Michigan, paid for by Saudi Arabia oil money. High school flunk out rates reached 76 percent last June, according to NBC's Brian Williams . Classrooms resemble more foreign countries than America .. English? Few speak it ! The city features a 50 percent illiteracy rate and growing. Unemployment hit 28.9 percent in 2009 as the auto industry vacated the city. In this week's Time Magazine October 4, 2009, "The Tragedy of Detroit: How a great city fell and how it can rise again," I choked on the writer's description of what happened. "If Detroit had been savaged by a hurricane and submerged by a ravenous flood,

we'd know a lot more about it," said Daniel Okrent. "If drought and carelessness had spread brush fires across the city, we'd see it on the evening news every night.

Earthquake, tornadoes, you name it - if natural disaster had devastated the city that was once the living proof of American prosperity, the rest of the country might take notice.

But Detroit , once our fourth largest city, now 11th and slipping rapidly, has had no such luck. Its disaster has long been a slow unwinding that seemed to remove it from the rest of the country. Even the death rattle that in the past year emanated from its signature industry brought more attention to the auto executives than to the people of the city, who had for so long been victimized by their dreadful decision-making."

As Coleman Young's corruption brought the city to its knees, no amount of federal dollars could save the incredible payoffs, kick backs and illegality permeating

his administration. I witnessed the city's death from the seat of my 18-wheeler tractor trailer because I moved people out of every sector of decaying Detroit "By any quantifiable standard, the city is on life support. Detroit 's treasury is $300 million short of the funds needed to provide the barest municipal services," Okrent said. "The school system, which six years ago was compelled by the teachers' union to reject a philanthropist's offer of $200 million to build 15 small, independent charter high schools, is in receivership. The murder rate is soaring, and 7 out of 10 remain unsolved.. Three years after Katrina devastated New Orleans, unemployment in that city hit a peak of 11%. In Detroit, the unemployment rate is 28.9%.

That's worth spelling out: twenty-eight point nine percent." At the end of Okrent's report, and

he will write a dozen more about Detroit, he said, "That's because the story of Detroit is not simply one of a great city's collapse. It's also about the erosion of the industries that helped build the country we know today. The ultimate fate of Detroit will reveal much about the character of America in the 21st century. If what was once the most prosperous manufacturing city in the nation has been brought to its knees, what does that say about our recent past? And if it can't find a way to get up, what does that say about our future?"

As you read in my book review of Chris Steiner's book, "$20 Per Gallon", the auto industry won't come back.. Immigration will keep pouring more and more uneducated third world immigrants from the Middle East into Detroit - thus creating a beachhead for Islamic hegemony in America .. If 50 percent illiteracy continues, we will see more homegrown terrorists spawned out of the Muslim ghettos of Detroit

Illiteracy plus Islam equals walking human bombs.

You have already seen it in Madrid, Spain; London, England and Paris, France with train bombings, subway bombings and riots. As their numbers grow, so will their power to enact their barbaric Sharia Law that negates republican forms of government, first amendment rights and subjugates women to the lowest rungs on the human ladder. We will see more honor killings by upset husbands, fathers and brothers that demand subjugation by their daughters, sisters and wives. Muslims prefer beheadings of women to scare the hell out of any other members of their sect from straying. Multiculturalism: what a perfect method to kill our language, culture, country and way of life.

I PRAY EVERYONE THAT READS THIS REALIZES THAT IF WE DONT ALL STAND UP AND SCREAM!!!! AT WASHINGTON AND OUR CITY LEADERS THIS IS WHAT AWAITS AMERICA. IF YOU FOLLOW THE NEWS AT ALL YOU KNOW THIS

HAS HAPPENED IN ENGLAND AND FRANCE AND SPAIN.

IF YOU THINK THIS IS JUST A BUNCH OF HOOEY AND YOU FEEL NO DUTY TO FIGHT FOR THIS COUNTRY, THEN I'M SORRY, I DONT KNOW WHAT IT WILL TAKE FOR YOU TO STAND AND FIGHT..AOLWebSuite .AOLPicturesFullSizeLink { height: 1px; width: 1px; overflow: hidden; } .AOLWebSuite a {color:blue; text-decoration: underline; cursor: pointer} .AOLWebSuite a.hsSig {cursor: default}God Bless you,

I'm done with this thread.

[O-Brother]

O-Brother,

Keep the faith my Priesthood Brother,

It's not in our Stewardship, it's in the Church leaderships Stewardship and if they want to encourage this we just have to believe in that "Belief System". Keep your own values dear. Those especially that are conservative.

It's all good!

You expressed my thoughts precisely.

Vindicator-

Yep. I realize that I'm not alone. Keep it Church-centric or they usually close the thread if you bring in extremist views or political stuff.

I will keep the faith in Jesus Christ. HE is the Way, The Truth and the Life.

It's all good.

P.S.: Sounds like you've been rensing around.

P.S.S.: You may find the following random comments rather interesting... from my homework archives.

"I have a problem with the perception that the Twelfth Article of Faith is strictly a matter of convenience. The Church could dispel this impression by making a public statement that members who immigrate illegally are acting contrary to the teachings of the Church and that the Church condemns the practice."

"do you not think being illegally in a country falls somewhat short of

[Jeff K.]

Well, I've decided to go back to my roots. I obviously can't reconcile things the way some of you have on this particular issue. Based on past experience, missionary visa mishaps in the Guyana (50 missionaries expelled)

http://lds-law.org/2...led-from-guyana

visa mishaps in my own mission where, per our Mission President's request in part because of my language skills, I ended up being the one to intercede on behalf of six missionaries on "tourist visas" when the law of the country required "pastor" visas instead. The whole issue of mercy and compassion having different meanings to different people, articles of faith #12 and #13 apparently having no meaning anymore, ~50, 000 Utah children with stolen social security numbers not meaning squat and all the other reasons posted here, it's hard for me (I'm a little slow) to feel like we're heading in the right direction as a whole.

If I were a Bishop or Stake President, I couldn't go along with the current position of the Church on this issue. I could not, in good conscience be ordaining illegal immigrants to the offices of the Priesthood, send them on missions or feel good about ANYONE, legal, citizen or illegal, entering the House of the Lord (A house of order) while still in no compliance with the core beliefs of the restored Gospel. They and I and everyone else would have to repent of, provide restitution for and fix whatever problems precludes them from being honest during a temple interview or mission, otherwise, I would feel like I would be mocking the Lord.

I have a hard time understanding how mercy and compassion make concessions toward illegal activity for gain (jobs, higher wages, better life, education, benefits, etc.) or Church membership with pending ethical and legal issues such as obtaining jobs at the expense of other people's identity and how tithes can proceed from unauthorized labor. This doesn't sound right to me.

Having been to Mexico and Central America and knowing many Latin people, I don't buy the "starvation" argument. In fact, in Utah, many illegal immigrants are making lots of money and sending it home, tax free. I know one particular person who's making nearly $1,000,000 in income per year and whose employees are primarily illegal immigrants. He is legal after marrying an American lady. He's in the automotive business. I also know of other individuals, many of whom are illegal, who run several retail outlets who are doing very well economically and they too send money back home, tax free. Like the United States, Mexico has its poor, its middle-class and its rich. We have scores of American companies doing business there. Just like here, Mexico and Central America have people who are going hungry and similarly, they also have a segment of the population that's going homeless and living in poverty. Our huge LDS membership in Mexico has a lot to do with our position on illegal immigration. Mexico has some of the nicest temples and nicest ward buildings. Some of the nicest people too and conversion rates. It's not that bad of a place to live. When I was younger, I not only visited Mexico but I knew many people from there and later even did business in Mexico City. The most t prudent Mexican LDS members that I know come here with tourists visas and others come here to be nannies, all legally. Most of our illegal immigrant problems stems from Mexico and Central America. Visa overstays from other countries are not the primary problem and Mexico accounts for 56%+ of illegal immigrants into this country according to Pew Hispanic Studies. It's safe to say that Mexico has a monopoly on illegal immigration issues. You hear little or nothing about other ethnic groups. As for "starving", consider the following information:

Ironically, while many are going without, America also suffers from glutony in some cases, disease in others or carelessness, causing more than 1/3 of our population to be obese. Feast or famine. So we too have problems at different extremes. http://www.reuters.c...E50863H20090109

As far as illegal immigrants starving, I would agree if we were talking about Africa or Ethiopia or if their lives were being threatened by genocide or war. Having worked closely with immigration issues and coming from a family of legal immigrants myself, I don't buy most of the defensive opinions I see online. There are a lot of words without knowledge going around. Perhaps I'm becoming apostatized because of this issue and need some enlightenment and repentance so I will be talking to my Stake President as soon as he's available.

Illegal activity and any condoning thereof doesn't sit right with me, unless I look the other way and pretend it's OK. A tsunami looks harmless until it hits the coast. Complacency and rationalizations are spiritual tsunamis.

P.S.: If the new ideology is what I see, then I'll have to be reconverted to accept the new norm.

I do not argue the starvation position because I do not believe it to be accurate. Having lived in Mexico and been responsible for a series of business organizations throughout Latin America I know that starvation is definately not the norm. But impovershment is in many countries. I could not in good conscience drive a family to poverty for such a law. It would be an active action and I would play an active role in doing that. So I am forced, by my compassion to reject sending a family to poverty when here they have a chance to and have shown themselves to be good members.

As to visa issues. I do not rate my nation with others. Technically I have served in three missions because of visa issues, when in fact I have only been a hold over in CA and landed eventualy in Peru (long story). So I do not really see such things as relevant to my position.

In fact, in Utah, many illegal immigrants are making lots of money and sending it home, tax free. I know one particular person who's making nearly $1,000,000 in income per year and whose employees are primarily illegal immigrants.

Sending money tax free? Are you stating the money they make is not taxed or that illegals do not pay taxes in the US? Well they do. While we may argue about income taxes and the amounts, sales taxes are paid, property taxes (either through ownership or rent) is paid, consumption taxes of all kinds are paid. When they send the money home, and it is their income, they have been taxed. Consider sending the money home to be discretionary income, either they place it in the bank or they send it home, it is up to their "discretion".

The whole issue of mercy and compassion having different meanings to different people, articles of faith #12 and #13 apparently having no meaning anymore, ~50, 000 Utah children with stolen social security numbers not meaning squat and all the other reasons posted here, it's hard for me (I'm a little slow) to feel like we're heading in the right direction as a whole.

It has been done before, but if law of the land is your God, then everytime you speed, you should turn yourself in, and make the appropriate restitution (it runs around 10 - 20 dollars per mile per hour over the limit), then you would be fulfilling the harsh stance you take. My bet is that you do not carry out restitution, so if mercy is to be extended to you for the action, then shouldn't some equivalent be given to all? Or is it that long before the question of illegal immigration came up you decided that articles of faith 12 and 13 mean squat where speeding is concerned? And yes, some social security numbers are stolen, many are made up - the government habitually hasn't been very good at providing information for that determination.

I know one particular person who's making nearly $1,000,000 in income per year and whose employees are primarily illegal immigrants. He is legal after marrying an American lady. He's in the automotive business. I also know of other individuals, many of whom are illegal, who run several retail outlets who are doing very well economically and they too send money back home, tax free.

You keep harping on the "I know....." while dismissing everyone else's "I know...." as being invalid somehow compared to your "I know...". I don't know about the consistency of the view. Nor are they 'tax free', unless you mean they aren't paying taxes on their income, which means they aren't getting reciepts, which means they cannot show expenses against profits, which means their companies exist in a rather strange place that doesn't quite work financially. IRS risks suddenly become huge.

If I were a Bishop or Stake President, I couldn't go along with the current position of the Church on this issue. I could not, in good conscience be ordaining illegal immigrants to the offices of the Priesthood, send them on missions or feel good about ANYONE, legal, citizen or illegal, entering the House of the Lord (A house of order) while still in no compliance with the core beliefs of the restored Gospel. They and I and everyone else would have to repent of, provide restitution for and fix whatever problems precludes them from being honest during a temple interview or mission, otherwise, I would feel like I would be mocking the Lord.

I am sure the Lord will bless our prophets and apostles to choose the right person and if you feel you cannot fulfill that role, than I am sure the Lord will not choose you to lead his church, but you may surprise yourself, there might even be a well of compassion you have not touched upon that will manifest itself to you when you obtain a responsibility to care and nurture those minorities you seem to fee so much. And remember "restitution" the next time you sin and speed your way somewhere. Immediately go to the nearest highway patrol, ask them what the fine is, make out the check, and then, and only then do you ask forgiveness for your sin and get back in your car.

[O-Brother]

I am sure the Lord will bless our prophets and apostles to choose the right person and if you feel you cannot fulfill that role, than I am sure the Lord will not choose you to lead his church, but you may surprise yourself, there might even be a well of compassion you have not touched upon that will manifest itself to you when you obtain a responsibility to care and nurture those minorities you seem to fee so much. And remember "restitution" the next time you sin and speed your way somewhere. Immediately go to the nearest highway patrol, ask them what the fine is, make out the check, and then, and only then do you ask forgiveness for your sin and get back in your car.

A good representation of your analogy below.

Your position on illegal immigration says a great deal about where we are and where we're headed. If you think the laws of the land are my god, you're mistaken. Hypothetically speaking, let's say someone uses a fraudulent social security number and ends up teaching people about the Gospel, representing the Church or serving in the Priesthood. Did you know that theft and misuse of a social security number is a felony and not a misdemeanor?

[Jeff K.]

Like I said, your overused traffic ticket analogy has no merit. Apples and oranges.

I don't see apples and oranges. Explain to me how breaking one law without restitution is ok, but breaking another law without restitution is not ok. I look forward to the explanation.

Both are laws of the land, duly upheld by our democracy and both, one assumes fall under the AOF clauses you mentioned.

[ERayR]

O-Brother please provide me with a list of what laws I can break and not be in violation of the previously mentioned Articles of Faith. I really seriously want to know. While your at it please give me some guidance as to how to discern which laws can be safely ignored and still not be in violation of the Articles of Faith.

[O-Brother]

I don't see apples and oranges. Explain to me how breaking one law without restitution is ok, but breaking another law without restitution is not ok. I look forward to the explanation.

Both are laws of the land, duly upheld by our democracy and both, one assumes fall under the AOF clauses you mentioned.

Can't you figure this out on your own? It's actually very simple. If a person cannot provide restitution, i.e., confess the sin of theft, abandon the theft, feel bad about the theft, never use the social security number again, no longer work illegally and reside in the country illegally, then that meets the LDS description of the process of repentance. We learn this stuff in primary and teach it to people during our missions. It gets interesting when one illegal alien is preaching this process to another illegal alien. Very inspiring.

Now let's look at your traffic ticket analogy.

If I speed, the repentance process is quite different.

1. I can pay a fine if I am detected by a police officer and get a speeding ticket.

2. I can dispute the ticket

3. I can take a class and have the ticket voided

4. I can learn a lesson and never speed again

There is NO theft involved in speeding unless you're driving a stolen getaway car after breaking into a Latino market and stealing a box of Cafe Con Leche, Horchata, Cafe De Olla, Atole and Champurrada.

Theft violates one of the Ten commandments and, if a person is concerned with being a good LDS member in good standing, it requires confession to a Bishop prior to going on a mission or obtaining a temple recommend. Especially if the theft involves damage to another person in some form or if the theft involves a felony (actual USE of social security numbers)

That's just the theft part of the problem The second problem is illegal entry which requires a return in order for repentance to be complete. Illegal entry into the United States is just that, illegal.

8 U.S.C.

[ERayR]

Can't you figure this out on your own? It's actually very simple. If a person cannot provide restitution, i.e., confess the sin of theft, abandon the theft, feel bad about the theft, never use the social security number again, no longer work illegally and reside in the country illegally, then that meets the LDS description of the process of repentance. We learn this stuff in primary and teach it to people during our missions. It gets interesting when one illegal alien is preaching this process to another illegal alien. Very inspiring.

Now let's look at your traffic ticket analogy.

If I speed, the repentance process is quite different.

1. I can pay a fine if I am detected by a police officer and get a speeding ticket.

2. I can dispute the ticket

3. I can take a class and have the ticket voided

4. I can learn a lesson and never speed again

There is NO theft involved in speeding unless you're driving a stolen getaway car after breaking into a Latino market and stealing a box of Cafe Con Leche, Horchata, Cafe De Olla, Atole and Champurrada.

Theft violates one of the Ten commandments and, if a person is concerned with being a good LDS member in good standing, it requires confession to a Bishop prior to going on a mission or obtaining a temple recommend. Especially if the theft involves damage to another person in some form or if the theft involves a felony (actual USE of social security numbers)

That's just the theft part of the problem The second problem is illegal entry which requires a return in order for repentance to be complete. Illegal entry into the United States is just that, illegal.

8 U.S.C.

[gmormon]

Two Things:

First when did illegal immigration become an unpardonable sin?

Second: I would still like a list of laws I can safely ignore and not be in violation of the afore mentioned Articles of Faith.

You know any time I speed or commit any traffic violation I immediately pull over the first officer of the law I see to turn myself in.

[O-Brother]

Two Things:

First when did illegal immigration become an unpardonable sin?

Second: I would still like a list of laws I can safely ignore and not be in violation of the afore mentioned Articles of Faith.

Glad to give you my opinion:

Illegal immigration has never become an unpardonable sin, only a sin for which you cannot make restitution therefore you can't effectively repent of it without doing what's required which none of those in the country illegally are doing, unless they're voluntarily returning to their homelands and re-entering via legal means. The Lord WILL bring them back if they do what's right. Nothing is impossible with the Lord. I can testify that that is true.

There is no specific list of laws to be ignored only laws for which a violation allows you and I to repent of and make restitution for when and IF we violate them. For example, speeding, petty theft, assault and others. It's pretty straight forward. As far as illegal immigration is concerned, if you cannot provide full restitution, you cannot fully repent.

If you say you repent but you're still working illegally, using someone else's social security number, claiming tax refunds, are a recipient of services designed for citizens or legal residents, you're not only lying to God, yourself and Priesthood authorities, but you're just making a bad problem worse.

That's why we are encouraged to do things right to begin with. Some things we have control over and some we don't. Every illegal immigrant has control over his decision to enter the land illegally. I've quoted the laws, I've quoted the scriptures, others have expressed the same opinion, it's all there for anyone to see. I have have possible solutions to the problem but you see, it's a lot easier to rationalize wrong-doing that fix it what's wrong. Illegal immigration is like glue. Once it sticks, it's hard to make things come undone. If I felt that illegal immigration was OK, I have absolutely nothing to gain by going against it other than a clear conscience. If I thought that 10 years from now growth based on illegal immigration was great, I'd be all for it. If I thought that it was OK to monopolize illegal immigration, I'd be all for it too. Why am I against it? Because I think it violates lots of LDS principles and core beliefs. It sets a bad precedent and makes exceptions where there should be none, in my view. Now, I know I am not alone in my thinking but to each their own. We've all witnessed what non-LDS illegal immigration can do despite claims of economic growth. Down the road, let's see what this growth does when our Churches are segregated into Hispanic Wards everywhere. Right now the Church has control over these Wards because those in charge are not typically illegal immigrants. I know so because I have attended many ethnic Wards. I do KNOW what's going on. For the most part, ethnic wards are supervised by non-ethnic local leaders. Do you know why? The answer will surprise you. It's not language barriers.

Finally, there are people making money off illegal immigration and LDS illegal immigrants so that makes the problem difficult to solve. I kind of got the hint that it's probably too late now to reverse the tide. So, let's just wait and see what happens. Perhaps you will remember some of the things I said or maybe I will just be proven to be a fool.

I'm just saddened by the whole thing and disappointed, partly because I think I understand what's going to happen down the road once the volume of illegal LDS members becomes significant, and it will. I preferred that growth came by righteous means but that's not up to me. Just my opinion as a member.

[alter idem]

Glad to give you my opinion:

Illegal immigration has never become an unpardonable sin, only a sin for which you cannot make restitution therefore you can't effectively repent of it without doing what's required which none of those in the country illegally are doing, unless they're voluntarily returning to their homelands and re-entering via legal means. The Lord WILL bring them back if they do what's right. Nothing is impossible with the Lord. I can testify that that is true.

There is no specific list of laws to be ignored only laws for which a violation allows you and I to repent of and make restitution for when and IF we violate them. For example, speeding, petty theft, assault and others. It's pretty straight forward. As far as illegal immigration is concerned, if you cannot provide full restitution, you cannot fully repent.

If you say you repent but you're still working illegally, using someone else's social security number, claiming tax refunds, are a recipient of services designed for citizens or legal residents, you're not only lying to God, yourself and Priesthood authorities, but you're just making a bad problem worse.

If people are breaking the law and there is a consequence for doing so, why are they not being prosecuted?

That's why we are encouraged to do things right to begin with. Some things we have control over and some we don't. Every illegal immigrant has control over his decision to enter the land illegally. I've quoted the laws, I've quoted the scriptures, others have expressed the same opinion, it's all there for anyone to see. I have have possible solutions to the problem but you see, it's a lot easier to rationalize wrong-doing that fix it what's wrong. Illegal immigration is like glue. Once it sticks, it's hard to make things come undone. If I felt that illegal immigration was OK, I have absolutely nothing to gain by going against it other than a clear conscience. If I thought that 10 years from now growth based on illegal immigration was great, I'd be all for it. If I thought that it was OK to monopolize illegal immigration, I'd be all for it too. Why am I against it? Because I think it violates lots of LDS principles and core beliefs. It sets a bad precedent and makes exceptions where there should be none, in my view. Now, I know I am not alone in my thinking but to each their own. We've all witnessed what non-LDS illegal immigration can do despite claims of economic growth. Down the road, let's see what this growth does when our Churches are segregated into Hispanic Wards everywhere. Right now the Church has control over these Wards because those in charge are not typically illegal immigrants. I know so because I have attended many ethnic Wards. I do KNOW what's going on. For the most part, ethnic wards are supervised by non-ethnic local leaders. Do you know why? The answer will surprise you. It's not language barriers.

There are already hispanic wards and I don't see why you think this is a bad thing.

Finally, there are people making money off illegal immigration and LDS illegal immigrants so that makes the problem difficult to solve. I kind of got the hint that it's probably too late now to reverse the tide. So, let's just wait and see what happens. Perhaps you will remember some of the things I said or maybe I will just be proven to be a fool.

I'm just saddened by the whole thing and disappointed, partly because I think I understand what's going to happen down the road once the volume of illegal LDS members becomes significant, and it will. I preferred that growth came by righteous means but that's not up to me. Just my opinion as a member.

You talk like you think that the leadership of the church are making mistakes, being foolish and not seeing the dangers ahead.