The Church and members who aren't documented

[ERayR]

I am amazed at the tolerance that the church leadership shows for lawbreakers also. Why I could name at least 3 bishops I know who regularly break trafic laws by speeding. I am aware of a couple of elders quorum presidents who talk on their cell phones while driving, thus endangering the lives of everyone on the road. What really is astounding is that they all have temple recommends and I see them in the temple regularly.

[frankenstein]

To you the issue is very simple. The law, justice and what not...... mercy should play no part in "the law" and "justice".

To me it is much more than that, and I cannot hide behind the ignorance of not knowing these people, nor am I insulated behind a keyboard in not ministering to those who aren't documented. It would be easy for me and the church to retreat to the idea of "the law" and "justice" without mercy. Well within our rights, I know, I keep hearing that.

And yet, it appears that such a simple thing to you, is not so simple to the prophet and apostles. Nor do I believe you would accuse them of putting their head in the sand. So my policy, my view if you will, seems more in line with the direction they seem to be going. So in your simple terms, how do you reconcile the distinctly different direction you desire for those already here, relative to the indicated course of direction the First Presidency seems to take?

i have never said anything about not "helping ones neighbor", however I am against active participation aiding and abetting criminal activity. If my neighbor is hungry I will offer food, etc. I also encourage my neighbor to obey the law, and do what I can within the law to help that person abide by the dictates of the law. I am very well acquainted with the plight of foreign persons in the United States - legals Residents and illegal aliens , however, my knowledge of their plight does not cause me to turn a blind eye to the law and thumb my nose at it.

have you ever worked with legal residents? say refugees from a war torn country? these people wait their time, and at times are separated from their families. when they get to the United States legally, they usually can only get very low paying menial jobs. yet these Refugees have to compete for these menial jobs with illegal aliens; this competition leads to ethic strife and discord - i know this first hand having worked with both Refugees and illegal aliens.

If you haven't broke any laws then cast the first stone.

If you have broken any of the above laws or any other laws and still answered everything correctly to get a temple recommend but you feel the Church is wrong for not persecuting the illegal immigrants then I feel you are a hypocrite.

so do away with all laws then, because none are worthy to accuse another, and none are worthy to sit in judgment - jury - of another and find another guilty. Also I said nothing of the Church to persecute illegal aliens, my position is that the Church should take a position that encourages compliance with the law - for instance someone on probation can not be baptized until the probation has ended, same goes for other privileges in the Church - priesthood advance, temple etc; and that raises the question of whether someone convicted of a sex crime can ever be baptized despite how repentant the person is - because a sex offender is essentially on probation for life. Is that an exact double-standard, not exactly, as one person has been hypocritically convicted by the "first stone casters" and the other has managed to break the law without being caught; but it sure approaches the line to a double standard.

[hordak]

I know I'm going to get the wrath of some, but what the heck...

Lehi said this:

"Yea, the Lord hath covenanted this land unto me, and to my children forever, and also all those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord.

Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord." 2 Nephi 1:5-6

Lehi was not just talking about in his day. The Book of Mormon was written for our day and these promises are still in force. This land was consecrated for all those the Lord brings here, and I believe he chooses to bring the remnant of the seed of Joseph here today--and some of it is very likely through illegal immigration-because the Lord doesn't care about borders and right now, we as a nation are not really living up to the demands that he requires of us, to secure his protection and benevolence.

I believe this is one reason why church leaders allow illegal immigrants to be baptized, attend the Temple, serve missions, etc.

Who knows but they were brought here by the hand of the Lord and as part of the fulfillment of prophesy.

So we can finally get rid of that LGT and accept that the BoM took place in the USA right

[Jeff K.]

i have never said anything about not "helping ones neighbor", however I am against active participation aiding and abetting criminal activity. If my neighbor is hungry I will offer food, etc. I also encourage my neighbor to obey the law, and do what I can within the law to help that person abide by the dictates of the law. I am very well acquainted with the plight of foreign persons in the United States - legals Residents and illegal aliens , however, my knowledge of their plight does not cause me to turn a blind eye to the law and thumb my nose at it.

Indeed, as it does mine. I was once of the same mind. The laws chosen in a democracy are the laws chosen, and we all agree to live by them, and adhere to them. It becomes easy to dismiss an entire class of people as a criminal class. But then as I have had to work with them, help them, and provide my talents for their benefit, almost entirely at the behest of the church, I have begun to understand and see things with a much different shade of knowledge. One might consider it the difference between a macro and micro view of humanity.

If by sending the family back to Mexico I impoverish them and they lose all that they are trying so hard to gain, a betterment of family, a hope for children. I would then deny them, their children, and quite possibly generations, giving true meaning of the sins of the fathers falling upon the children. The question is what becomes of me, when in my responsibility, I am part of that cause? As I have labored in the field, I have begun to question what exactly my responsibility is in this and how I would be held accountable. It seems my response to Christ that I was obeying the law of the land, seems to ring hollow, when a child that might have attained greatness is reduced to poverty in the country of their parents birth, or their own. In a sense, that type of conversation scares me more than some of the others I have thought of over the years.

Just so you don't get the wrong idea, I do not advocate open borders. In fact I believe our borders and policies should be heavily strengthened in order to maintain the integrity of this great nation which the Lord has blessed. But our weakness on the watchtower should not necessitate imprudent and draconian action for those who were not dissuaded by the few we left guarding the entrance to our nation. A strong border which regulates and controls well should be a requirement and should be acted upon immediately. However for those who have entered with the best of intentions and sought to harm none and have, aside from immigration, attempted to live as we do. I think mercy requires us to act in a more circumspect way, helping them become who we are proud to be. Something of a narrow path that is balanced to the question of mercy and necessity.

[ERayR]

so do away with all laws then, because none are worthy to accuse another, and none are worthy to sit in judgment - jury - of another and find another guilty. Also I said nothing of the Church to persecute illegal aliens, my position is that the Church should take a position that encourages compliance with the law - for instance someone on probation can not be baptized until the probation has ended, same goes for other privileges in the Church - priesthood advance, temple etc; and that raises the question of whether someone convicted of a sex crime can ever be baptized despite how repentant the person is - because a sex offender is essentially on probation for life. Is that an exact double-standard, not exactly, as one person has been hypocritically convicted by the "first stone casters" and the other has managed to break the law without being caught; but it sure approaches the line to a double standard.

No one is advocating doing away with all the laws so don't go hyperbole. What is being advocated is to follow the Savior's example and temper justice with mercy while getting some laws that are actually workable and enforcable.

The church does encourage compliance with the law but the leadership has seen that justice must be tempered with mercy. Relating undocumented status with a sex offence is way, way over the line. You are relating a misdemeanor with a felony. A closer analogy is to relate it to a traffic offense. Do you think it hypocritical to allow traffic offender access to the church.

[Jeff K.]

have you ever worked with legal residents? say refugees from a war torn country? these people wait their time, and at times are separated from their families. when they get to the United States legally, they usually can only get very low paying menial jobs. yet these Refugees have to compete for these menial jobs with illegal aliens; this competition leads to ethic strife and discord - i know this first hand having worked with both Refugees and illegal aliens.

Earthquake in Peru, Floods in El Salvador, digging out villages buried under the squalls of Southern Chile, rebuilding water systems, all of these things I have done under auspices of a private corporation whose specialty was rebuilding infrastructure, and it is one reason I hold so much disdain for the ability of nations to respond to the needs of people and have some libertarian tendencies.

I will tell you that those who come to the US and compete have no problem finding menial jobs and rise quickly, much more quickly than those who cannot depend on their documentation to help them rise. I would say the competition is minimal at best. Ethnic strife by the way is usually the catchword of demogogues who are the ones whipping the groups to a frenzy. I do not see it as such a difficult issue or even obstacle.

[frankenstein]

the catchword of demogogues who are the ones whipping the groups to a frenzy. I do not see it as such a difficult issue or even obstacle.

veiled insults aside, my comments derive from sitting in the living rooms of liberians, nigerians and persons from other African nations and those people sharing with me their struggles and disdain for persons who violate the law in terms of immigration.

[alter idem]

What land was consecrated? The western hemisphere? The United States? not sure you what you mean though are you saying that all people who come to the United States are brought here by God or just those that eventually join the Church?

Uh, I didn't say it, Lehi said it. Didn't you see I was quoting scripture?

If you want to know exactly 'what' the scriptures mean by the promised land, God would be the one to ask. I can give you my opinion. I suspect that in our day today, the 'promised land' would be the United States of America because it is a nation that truly enjoys 'liberty' because of our divinely inspired constitution.

And neither I nor the scriptural quote said anything about it referring to 'just those that eventually join the church'.

To understand what it is talking about you'll want to read and think about it yourself. My opinion is that it is talking about all people, not exclusively members of the church.

and if we take that verse literally "that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord. " then that most certainly means God brought the terrorist here who caused the acts of 911.

If one is a literalist, which LDS are not. IMO, the scriptures were talking about those who come to the promised land, but I don't think it includes those who come here on vacation, land in one of our airports on lay-over or come to commit terrorist acts. However, we also know from scripture that the Lord will not be able to protect us from all dangers (including terrorist acts that threaten our freedom and safety) if we do not serve him:

Moroni speaks directly to us, 'the gentiles' who possess the promised land today:

'Behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands; wherefore he that doth posses it shall serve God or shall be swept off;..

And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decress of God--that ye may repent and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.

Behold, this is a choice land and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written.' Ether 2:10-12

[alter idem]

So we can finally get rid of that LGT and accept that the BoM took place in the USA right

I think you are jumping the gun with that. I don't think this narrows down where past events took place.

But in our day, I think the United States of America is the western hemisphere nation where the blessings of the promised land are most able to be fulfilled.

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 26 February 2010 - 10:00 AM, said:

the catchword of demogogues who are the ones whipping the groups to a frenzy. I do not see it as such a difficult issue or even obstacle.

veiled insults aside, my comments derive from sitting in the living rooms of liberians, nigerians and persons from other African nations and those people sharing with me their struggles and disdain for persons who violate the law in terms of immigration.

No, not directed at you at all, but at the Jessee Jacksons et al that use race differences in order to gain their position. I know mixed poor nieghborhoods that have no such issues.

[O-Brother]

W7's are submitted for realestate, but as you pointed out those are quite complicated due to the complication of the issue another department handled those.

However, I am not wrong nor conspiratorial about illegal aliens working in the United States, filing taxes, and getting a tax refunds and being treated sometime better under the Tax Code than United States Citizens.

Someone who LEGALLY works in the United States CAN NOT GET A ITIN and does not submitt a W7 or rather is not entitled to ITIN by way of W7 application. The reason being someone who can legally work in the United States has the requisite identifying numbers to file taxes, however a foreign national granted permission to work in the United States can file a W7 for dependents provided those dependents do not have permission to work in the United States.

the issue is very simple, file a W7 with a 1040, get a refund, legal resident or illegal alien.

that you wish to keep you head in the sand of the river denial is quite your prerogative, rather naive and silly of you but go right ahead on with it.

That's interesting to know. I was wondering how those refunds were being sent out. Interesting scheme going on. Makes sense to me now. What do you think is the real purpose or reason for the current situation regarding illegal immigrants and the LDS Church?

[O-Brother]

so do away with all laws then, because none are worthy to accuse another, and none are worthy to sit in judgment - jury - of another and find another guilty. Also I said nothing of the Church to persecute illegal aliens, my position is that the Church should take a position that encourages compliance with the law - for instance someone on probation can not be baptized until the probation has ended, same goes for other privileges in the Church - priesthood advance, temple etc; and that raises the question of whether someone convicted of a sex crime can ever be baptized despite how repentant the person is - because a sex offender is essentially on probation for life. Is that an exact double-standard, not exactly, as one person has been hypocritically convicted by the "first stone casters" and the other has managed to break the law without being caught; but it sure approaches the line to a double standard.

Makes sense. Simply reciting and asking for compliance with the 12th and 13th article of faith might suffice. Do you know if a person who is not paying child support is prevented from advancements in the Priesthood? Is that enforced nowadays?

[Jeff K.]

I don't know of a single undocumented worker that goes that route. Its a red herring without any real consequence, it may even be an excuse for some people to claim unfair advantage when in fact, it is generally the other way around.

[ERayR]

Makes sense. Simply reciting and asking for compliance with the 12th and 13th article of faith might suffice. Do you know if a person who is not paying child support is prevented from advancements in the Priesthood? Is that enforced nowadays?

OK in the spirit of openness did you speed any time in the last 2 months? Have you taken all the pencils and pens back to the office? Just curious as to how you measure up to your own standards.

[O-Brother]

OK in the spirit of openness did you speed any time in the last 2 months? Have you taken all the pencils and pens back to the office? Just curious as to how you measure up to your own standards.

Let me think... Speeding, that's a hard one. I may have gone over the limit while passing or changing lanes. Pencils and pens? No. I am pretty sure I haven't taken any from the office. Even if I had, they would belong to me anyway. But I see that disclosure is important whenever we compare apples and oranges.

[Anijen]

Let me think... Speeding, that's a hard one. I may have gone over the limit while passing or changing lanes. Pencils and pens? No. I am pretty sure I haven't taken any from the office. Even if I had, they would belong to me anyway. But I see that disclosure is important whenever we compare apples and oranges.

On one hand it is apples and oranges. But the argument put forth was about obedience to laws. I put out some laws that many if not most people break and consequently still are temple worthy. According to Frankenstein and yourself and others you want to pick and choose the laws you keep and break. Some laws are plainly draconian some are so darn confusing that it is a headache just to think about. Ask Confidential Informant about immigration laws, he is the expert on these matters.

I agree that immigration including illegal immigration has many problems. But I am a realist I don't see it getting fixed any time soon. In the mean while there are needy people who need to provide for their families. You and others would for the sake of a law have people unsafe, unfed, unsheltered, and perhaps more than likely get in harms way. Hey but you are a law abiding citizen and a top notch member pat your self on your back because I wont. I find yours and Frankenstein and others who have similar attitudes, I feel you are prideful, selfish, bigoted and just down right mean spirited.

Go ahead tell us what you think the church needs to do but I for one think that is nothing but pride.

[mbh26]

Most stake presidents are at the top of the food chain in their chosen line of work. He probably employs illegal immigrants to jobs at the price he wants to pay. So of course he would want current illegals to stay and to keep the law the same so that we always have an influx of cheap immigrant labor. Ultimately quality of life is determined in the job you end up with, not government laws.

[O-Brother]

On one hand it is apples and oranges. But the argument put forth was about obedience to laws. I put out some laws that many if not most people break and consequently still are temple worthy. According to Frankenstein and yourself and others you want to pick and choose the laws you keep and break. Some laws are plainly draconian some are so darn confusing that it is a headache just to think about. Ask Confidential Informant about immigration laws, he is the expert on these matters.

I agree that immigration including illegal immigration has many problems. But I am a realist I don't see it getting fixed any time soon. In the mean while there are needy people who need to provide for their families. You and others would for the sake of a law have people unsafe, unfed, unsheltered, and perhaps more than likely get in harms way. Hey but you are a law abiding citizen and a top notch member pat your self on your back because I wont. I find yours and Frankenstein and others who have similar attitudes, I feel you are prideful, selfish, bigoted and just down right mean spirited.

Go ahead tell us what you think the church needs to do but I for one think that is nothing but pride.

Is the above your argument? It's so full of holes and nonsense that I'm not sure I want to formulate a reply so we will leave it at that.

[ERayR]

On one hand it is apples and oranges. But the argument put forth was about obedience to laws. I put out some laws that many if not most people break and consequently still are temple worthy. According to Frankenstein and yourself and others you want to pick and choose the laws you keep and break. Some laws are plainly draconian some are so darn confusing that it is a headache just to think about. Ask Confidential Informant about immigration laws, he is the expert on these matters.

I agree that immigration including illegal immigration has many problems. But I am a realist I don't see it getting fixed any time soon. In the mean while there are needy people who need to provide for their families. You and others would for the sake of a law have people unsafe, unfed, unsheltered, and perhaps more than likely get in harms way. Hey but you are a law abiding citizen and a top notch member pat your self on your back because I wont. I find yours and Frankenstein and others who have similar attitudes, I feel you are prideful, selfish, bigoted and just down right mean spirited.

Go ahead tell us what you think the church needs to do but I for one think that is nothing but pride.

Anijen you have said it well. The Pharisees tend to willfully misunderstand. Again, well said.

[frankenstein]

I find yours and Frankenstein and others who have similar attitudes, I feel you are prideful, selfish, bigoted and just down right mean spirited.

Go ahead tell us what you think the church needs to do but I for one think that is nothing but pride.

thanks for the personal insults.

you still have not addressed the issue of doing away with all laws, juries, etc, none are worthy to judge another so we must do away with the entire legal system....anarchy until Christ the only Righteous Judge reins.But before you attempt such, you might want to read a talk from Elder Oaks about how we are COMMANDED to judge and sometimes that means judging actions of another.

Is it pride or bigotry to ask compliance with the laws?

Is it pride or bigotry to ask the Government to stop dolling out millions of dollars a year to people who do not qualify for the money? (see W7 discussion herein - I am not addressing welfare, schooling, etc)

Is it pride or bigotry to see and understand the sadness in the face of a father and son, when I had to tell them "You can not see you wife and sisters for 5 years" because the wife and sisters are in an African Country, and that is how long it will be before they could legally come to the United States. The man's response was "That is just not fair, if we had been born on this side of the world we could just sneak across". This man was doing everything legally and is experiencing first hand the injustice that is created by willful blindness and a utterly complete misunderstanding of Gospel and willful disobedience to such (Love God keep the commandments, keeping the commandments no reason to break the laws - who is the pick and choose pharisee?

Is it pride or bigotry for me to understand that Legal Resident ALeins, Refugees, Asylees, and the like are harmed by the competition created for low level jobs that illegals also compete for. But you and other do not want to address that issue, but rather willful ignorance and disdain for trying to help the person legally entitled FIRST over the person who violated the law to enter the country.

[Geaux LSU]

hordak

You also appear to know nothing about what it means to be an undocumented immagrant. To a large portion they have two choices. One is to take the risks of entering the USA illegally or watch their families go hungry. I submit that before you condemn you should face the same choice. You quote scripture to bolster your position, perhaps you didn't read far enough. Try Mosiah 4:14. "And ye will not suffer your children that they go hungry, or naked; neither will ye suffer that they transgress the laws of God, and fight and quarrel one with another, and serve the devil, who is the master of sin, or who is the devil spirit which hath been spoken of by our fathers, he being an enemy to all righteousness."

Which would you choose, which is the greater commandment.

Seriously? I suppose drug dealers are unlicensed pharmacists?

[Vindicator]

On one hand it is apples and oranges. But the argument put forth was about obedience to laws. I put out some laws that many if not most people break and consequently still are temple worthy. According to Frankenstein and yourself and others you want to pick and choose the laws you keep and break. Some laws are plainly draconian some are so darn confusing that it is a headache just to think about. Ask Confidential Informant about immigration laws, he is the expert on these matters.

I agree that immigration including illegal immigration has many problems. But I am a realist I don't see it getting fixed any time soon. In the mean while there are needy people who need to provide for their families. You and others would for the sake of a law have people unsafe, unfed, unsheltered, and perhaps more than likely get in harms way. Hey but you are a law abiding citizen and a top notch member pat your self on your back because I wont. I find yours and Frankenstein and others who have similar attitudes, I feel you are prideful, selfish, bigoted and just down right mean spirited.

Go ahead tell us what you think the church needs to do but I for one think that is nothing but pride.

Sir,

I have to confess, I must be a prideful person. I'm proud that my Grandfather fought and survived the tyranny and hate of WWII. I'm Proud that my father served two tours in Viet Nam to help fight the repression of it's people and push of communistic takeover. I'm proud that I served a Mission for my beloved Christ. I'm proud of my nephew that served an Honorable mission in Tiajuana Mexico, perhaps one of the most difficult Missions in theChurch, without, mind you the protection of our brave Soldiers. I'm proud that I served my Country in the United States Army, defending against enemies both forign and domestic. I'm prould and grateful that I was born in a great country, a country of Laws, a country with a strong Constitution. I'm proud that for now thanks to the lives and sacrafices of thousands before me this United States is a world Leader. I'm proud to have been raised in the True Church, that because of the brave men and women in uniform have given me and others the Freedom's to worship freely, have been able to go through the Temples, to have employment to pay our taxes to build schools and University's, roads and infrastructure, to have the finest healthcare system in the World, to have my sons educated in the best schools, to simply live FREE. I'm PROUD to be a Patriot! I'm proud to be a Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints! So forgive me when I'm not comfortable seeing criminals from Mexico crawl into this great country and milk our educational system using it as a DayCare facility to enable Mom and Dad to work all day and send their too often untaxed income back to Mexico and their corrupt Government. Forgive me for being upset that these criminals milk our health care system and emergency rooms for their primary health care issues costing tax payers billions of dollars each year, cram our prisons and jails after their criminal activity knowing little or nothing will happen to them but be deported only to return again one day and reek havoc on another innocent family. So forgive me when I don't bend over backwards to help the poor and needy criminals that shouldn't be in the first place when our own freeway and highway exits are crowdedwith homeless AMERICAN VETERAN's who gave you the basic right to put your opinions on this site. Forgive me for being imbarrassed for our Church when non-members inquire as to why we harbor criminals in our churches and Temples and want to debate our Hypocracy. While members offer arcaic scriptures to foolishly attempt to rashionalize why all should be perfectly welcome to just move in to this Great Country. Perhaps the Church should terminate all of their Mexico missions and just put every Missionary in a cush Border States Mission, protected by the brave men and women in Uniform, both Law Enforcment and Military, then they can just go into the areas in these states that are full of illegal aliens and that is what they are, and teach these criminals who are here illegally to shape up and fly right, repent of their sins, be baptized just to continue to their Hispanic Cultures while milking the Churches welfare system. I would be interested in what your real motives for protecti ng these illegals, as I have followed your writings often. It would seem you would be one to encourage following the "Laws of the Land". The church has no problem turning theirs heads on this issue but seems to take issue with someone attempting to do the lords work in the Temples but is denied because he/she is a few months behind on his childsupport at no fault of his own. So, yes, I must me prideful and yes I'm PROUD. I want to continue to see this country stay great, so that the ultimate sacrafices made by those before me don't go in vain watching illigal criminals tear down what they gave their lives to perserve.

P.S. Make sure you file your taxes before April 15th. 20 Million Illegals are depending on you.

Thank you, The Vindicator

[Geaux LSU]

Sir,

I have to confess, I must be a prideful person. I'm proud that my Grandfather fought and survived the tyranny and hate of WWII. I'm Proud that my father served two tours in Viet Nam to help fight the repression of it's people and push of communistic takeover. I'm proud that I served a Mission for my beloved Christ. I'm proud of my nephew that served an Honorable mission in Tiajuana Mexico, perhaps one of the most difficult Missions in theChurch, without, mind you the protection of our brave Soldiers. I'm proud that I served my Country in the United States Army, defending against enemies both forign and domestic. I'm prould and grateful that I was born in a great country, a country of Laws, a country with a strong Constitution. I'm proud that for now thanks to the lives and sacrafices of thousands before me this United States is a world Leader. I'm proud to have been raised in the True Church, that because of the brave men and women in uniform have given me and others the Freedom's to worship freely, have been able to go through the Temples, to have employment to pay our taxes to build schools and University's, roads and infrastructure, to have the finest healthcare system in the World, to have my sons educated in the best schools, to simply live FREE. I'm PROUD to be a Patriot! I'm proud to be a Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints! So forgive me when I'm not comfortable seeing criminals from Mexico crawl into this great country and milk our educational system using it as a DayCare facility to enable Mom and Dad to work all day and send their too often untaxed income back to Mexico and their corrupt Government. Forgive me for being upset that these criminals milk our health care system and emergency rooms for their primary health care issues costing tax payers billions of dollars each year, cram our prisons and jails after their criminal activity knowing little or nothing will happen to them but be deported only to return again one day and reek havoc on another innocent family. So forgive me when I don't bend over backwards to help the poor and needy criminals that shouldn't be in the first place when our own freeway and highway exits are crowdedwith homeless AMERICAN VETERAN's who gave you the basic right to put your opinions on this site. Forgive me for being imbarrassed for our Church when non-members inquire as to why we harbor criminals in our churches and Temples and want to debate our Hypocracy. While members offer arcaic scriptures to foolishly attempt to rashionalize why all should be perfectly welcome to just move in to this Great Country. Perhaps the Church should terminate all of their Mexico missions and just put every Missionary in a cush Border States Mission, protected by the brave men and women in Uniform, both Law Enforcment and Military, then they can just go into the areas in these states that are full of illegal aliens and that is what they are, and teach these criminals who are here illegally to shape up and fly right, repent of their sins, be baptized just to continue to their Hispanic Cultures while milking the Churches welfare system. I would be interested in what your real motives for protecti ng these illegals, as I have followed your writings often. It would seem you would be one to encourage following the "Laws of the Land". The church has no problem turning theirs heads on this issue but seems to take issue with someone attempting to do the lords work in the Temples but is denied because he/she is a few months behind on his childsupport at no fault of his own. So, yes, I must me prideful and yes I'm PROUD. I want to continue to see this country stay great, so that the ultimate sacrafices made by those before me don't go in vain watching illigal criminals tear down what they gave their lives to perserve.

P.S. Make sure you file your taxes before April 15th. 20 Million Illegals are depending on you.

Thank you, The Vindicator

To you, and yours, I say thank you and BRAVO!.

[O-Brother]

thanks for the personal insults.

Is it pride or bigotry for me to understand that Legal Resident ALeins, Refugees, Asylees, and the like are harmed by the competition created for low level jobs that illegals also compete for. But you and other do not want to address that issue, but rather willful ignorance and disdain for trying to help the person legally entitled FIRST over the person who violated the law to enter the country.

Well said. The "damages" are often overlooked when the compassion band wagon passes by. Some of us forget Joseph's words: "Teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves." A correct principle involves no cheating the system, gaming it or bypassing those who are also in need but choose to do things legally as any good Latter-Day saint worthy the name should do. There are thousands of us LDS members who do not agree with illegal immigration but it's nonsense to assume that we do not love our brothers and sisters who put themselves in their situation. Let's not be so quick to judge those who are not in favor of illegal activity. Our Church does not believe in law-breaking. That's not one of our core values. If it's not possible to immigrate legally, then, that's the way it is until the laws are changed. It's not OK to receive benefits and entitlements just because you made it here whether by visa, smuggling or border-crossing.

There are millions of people who want to be here and they're not. They too are God's children. Let's not kid ourselves that the end justifies the means. Some of us realize that many members want to be compassionate, etc. That's fine. Be compassionate. But compassion should not be equivalent to condoning law-breaking, illegality and the notion that the Priesthood can be exercised while issues are still not resolved with the proper civil authorities. It's really very simple to understand. If my son steals and doesn't fully repent, I expect him to go to jail to learn a lesson. I don't tell him it's OK that he stole something because he had his needs or reasons. Some violations are minor and some are major. Some create real victims, some only hurt the violator.. Some create serious damages to the perpetrator while others only damage other people.

The moment we starting thinking that theft is OK, we corrupt our values and everything we as latter-day saints believe in. When one supports illegal immigration, one supports everything that goes with it, from $338 Billion of annual fiscal damages to all the damages caused by illicit use of social security numbers, id theft, jobs taken by unauthorized workers, etc. We do have to be careful where we place our support. In reference to immigration, our support should be directed towards things and behaviors that are legal because that's what Mormons believe in. At least that's how it's been for a long time. I hope nothing has changed. Many people have fought and died so we could have our freedoms. It might be a good idea not to turn America into a circus where everything goes, especially when things are being done illegally or against the 12th and 13th articles of faith, penned by Joseph Smith. From a religious stand point, God shall not be mocked so we have to be careful how the Priesthood is used and that there are no skeletons in the closet or unresolved issues prior to being ordained to it.

[Vindicator]

Well said. The "damages" are often overlooked when the compassion band wagon passes by. Some of us forget Joseph's words: "Teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves." A correct principle involves no cheating the system, gaming it or bypassing those who are also in need but choose to do things legally as any good Latter-Day saint worthy the name should do. There are thousands of us LDS members who do not agree with illegal immigration but it's nonsense to assume that we do not love our brothers and sisters who put themselves in their situation. Let's not be so quick to judge those who are not in favor of illegal activity. Our Church does not believe in law-breaking. That's not one of our core values. If it's not possible to immigrate legally, then, that's the way it is until the laws are changed. It's not OK to receive benefits and entitlements just because you made it here whether by visa, smuggling or border-crossing.

There are millions of people who want to be here and they're not. They too are God's children. Let's not kid ourselves that the end justifies the means. Some of us realize that many members want to be compassionate, etc. That's fine. Be compassionate. But compassion should not be equivalent to condoning law-breaking, illegality and the notion that the Priesthood can be exercised while issues are still not resolved with the proper civil authorities. It's really very simple to understand. If my son steals and doesn't fully repent, I expect him to go to jail to learn a lesson. I don't tell him it's OK that he stole something because he had his needs or reasons. Some violations are minor and some are major. Some create real victims, some only hurt the violator.. Some create serious damages to the perpetrator while others only damage other people.

The moment we starting thinking that theft is OK, we corrupt our values and everything we as latter-day saints believe in. When one supports illegal immigration, one supports everything that goes with it, from $338 Billion of annual fiscal damages to all the damages caused by illicit use of social security numbers, id theft, jobs taken by unauthorized workers, etc. We do have to be careful where we place our support. In reference to immigration, our support should be directed towards things and behaviors that are legal because that's what Mormons believe in. At least that's how it's been for a long time. I hope nothing has changed. Many people have fought and died so we could have our freedoms. It might be a good idea not to turn America into a circus where everything goes, especially when things are being done illegally or against the 12th and 13th articles of faith, penned by Joseph Smith. From a religious stand point, God shall not be mocked so we have to be careful how the Priesthood is used and that there are no skeletons in the closet or unresolved issues prior to being ordained to it.

Well Said! Thank you!