The Church and members who aren't documented

[O-Brother]

What's your theory (I'm yet slower still )?

Unless there is a greater undisclosed reason for minimizing the concept of honesty and obedience to the laws of the land, my theory is that we are compromising our core values for the sake or Public Relations and conversions. The fact that the U.S. Government is relaxed on illegal immigration should not automatically create LDS compromises with illegalities and disobedience. Theoretically speaking.

[O-Brother]

I don't know, I think our faith has a long and glorious history of being illegal immigrants and vagrants.

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob wandered through lands that weren't theirs making often unfavorable deals to survive and get the food they needed.

Moses led his people to a new land trespassing through other lands, illegally immigrating, and then taking over the government.

Our pioneer ancestors entered then Mexico (Utah) without permission and settled down on land not theirs.

Hmmmmmmmmm........

Once laws are enacted we cannot justify wrong-doing by saying that people did this or that 100 or 1,000 years ago and conclude that because they did it, then it's OK for us to do the same. If we go by that logic, that it should be OK for people to practice polygamy without reprisals or prejudice.

[The Nehor]

Once laws are enacted we cannot justify wrong-doing by saying that people did this or that 100 or 1,000 years ago and conclude that because they did it, then it's OK for us to do the same. If we go by that logic, that it should be OK for people to practice polygamy without reprisals or prejudice.

Ah, but our ancestors did. They violated polygamy laws for years and stopped when God told us to through the prophet. I don't put breaking the ever-malleable laws of the land on the same level as practicing polygamy which God forbid.

Also, as the average American violates federal law multiple times a day I don't see the law of the land as the same inviolate standard you seem to. http://www.encounterbooks.com/books/felonies-you-commit-every-day/

[Nofear]

...my theory is that we are compromising our core values for the sake or Public Relations and conversions.

Personally, I'm not so inclined to believe that the Brethren are so ready to compromise their values for membership numbers or political currency. Such, to me, is quite the accusation.

[Anijen]

Once laws are enacted we cannot justify wrong-doing by saying that people did this or that 100 or 1,000 years ago and conclude that because they did it, then it's OK for us to do the same. If we go by that logic, that it should be OK for people to practice polygamy without reprisals or prejudice.

I am thinking of the human problem and not the legal one. I am related to a once been illegal alien until his marriage to my sister and some other stuff after he is now legal. He told me horror stories of the economic condition of Mexico and the deep corruptness that goes on. I feel that the hierarchy of needs trump the legality in most of these cases.

I can not judge them too harshly (if at all)for wanting to provide better for their families. If that ideology diminishes justice of the law, then it is the law that needs to be fixed and not the people who have no economic choice. And because it has happened in the past, it is a legit reason to update outdated laws, its called reacting to a set precedence. We can argue and turn blue and say you cant use the past as an excuse, I say why not? Change the law somehow. There must be some better way to let people in and try to keep the criminal and terrorist out. I don't know what it is but people shouldn't have to suffer, lets find a solution.

[ERayR]

I am thinking of the human problem and not the legal one. I am related to a once been illegal alien until his marriage to my sister and some other stuff after he is now legal. He told me horror stories of the economic condition of Mexico and the deep corruptness that goes on. I feel that the hierarchy of needs trump the legality in most of these cases.

I can not judge them too harshly (if at all)for wanting to provide better for their families. If that ideology diminishes justice of the law, then it is the law that needs to be fixed and not the people who have no economic choice. And because it has happened in the past it is a legit reason to update outdated laws, its called reacting to a set precedence. We can argue and turn blue and say you cant use the past as an excuse, I say why not? Change the law somehow. There must be some better way to let people in and try to keep the criminal and terrorist out. I don't know what it is but people shouldn't have to suffer until we know the solution.

Anijen earlier in this thread I posted the severity of the economic needs that cause a great many of these to take the risk to come here. It was rudely dismised. I can't help but believe that most would rather be safely at home with family and loved ones if that were a viable choice. However, several of the good brothers who enjoy the blessings of life here and who have earned their own redemption, don't see the need for taking care of the poor and needy. They also think the Church should become another enforcement arm of the government.

It is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints, not the Church of Jesus Christ of the USA.

[Anijen]

Anijen earlier in this thread I posted the severity of the economic needs that cause a great many of these to take the risk to come here. It was rudely dismised. I can't help but believe that most would rather be safely at home with family and loved ones if that were a viable choice. However, several of the good brothers who enjoy the blessings of life here and who have earned their own redemption, don't see the need for taking care of the poor and needy. They also think the Church should become another enforcement arm of the government.

It is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints, not the Church of Jesus Christ of the USA.

I agree completely.

[frankenstein]

Anijen earlier in this thread I posted the severity of the economic needs that cause a great many of these to take the risk to come here. It was rudely dismised. I can't help but believe that most would rather be safely at home with family and loved ones if that were a viable choice. However, several of the good brothers who enjoy the blessings of life here and who have earned their own redemption, don't see the need for taking care of the poor and needy. They also think the Church should become another enforcement arm of the government.

It is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints, not the Church of Jesus Christ of the USA.

so lets do away with all laws

lets teach that being a tattle tail is wrong - though a current honor code policy at byu.

yes the comments above are absurd just as your comments are, I do not recall anyone stating we should not take of the poor and needy.

the church is not a police force; however, that does not mean the Church should fain ignorance and even allow for Missions Presidents to take a activie role in aiding a "criminal".

[alter idem]

I know I'm going to get the wrath of some, but what the heck...

Lehi said this:

"Yea, the Lord hath covenanted this land unto me, and to my children forever, and also all those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord.

Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord." 2 Nephi 1:5-6

Lehi was not just talking about in his day. The Book of Mormon was written for our day and these promises are still in force. This land was consecrated for all those the Lord brings here, and I believe he chooses to bring the remnant of the seed of Joseph here today--and some of it is very likely through illegal immigration-because the Lord doesn't care about borders and right now, we as a nation are not really living up to the demands that he requires of us, to secure his protection and benevolence.

I believe this is one reason why church leaders allow illegal immigrants to be baptized, attend the Temple, serve missions, etc.

Who knows but they were brought here by the hand of the Lord and as part of the fulfillment of prophesy.

[Anijen]

frankenstein 25 February 2010 - 06:41 PM

so lets do away with all laws

We are not saying that.

lets teach that being a tattle tail is wrong - though a current honor code policy at byu.

Not relevant.

I do not recall anyone stating we should not take care of the poor and needy

Although it seems some are saying obedience to a confusing and some places draconian law is better than taking care of the poor and needy.

the church is not a police force;

Agreed.

however, that does not mean the Church should fain ignorance

They don't feign ignorance, when have they? What would your solution be?

and even allow for Missions Presidents to take a active role in aiding a "criminal"

CFR

Perhaps you are confusing aiding a criminal with a roll in their spiritual growth. I see a mission president assigning Elders where he feels they are inspired to go. I do not think that a mission president is thinking how can I mess with the INS.

[Anijen]

WARNING

Anytime one thinks the Lord is wrong and they know better how his church should be ran, IMO is at the very least full of pride and could be on a slippery slope to apostasy.

[Jeff K.]

let me more explicit in my time with the IRS I processed nearly 10,000 W7 applications and issued that many ITINS. All the W7 applications I processed were submitted with a 1040, where on the tax payer was claiming dependents. Many of these applications and 1040 were submitted with a W2, of which the vast majority had a number in the SSN box. Now think about this, if someone has a SSN they can not get a ITIN, however that person is submitting an application for a ITIN. And since the person is submitting a 1040 and a W2, that means the person HAS WORKED illegally in the United States. as and IRS employee I had access to a Social Security number data base, i would cross check the SSN on the W2 in the data base, and yes I identified dead people, babies only months old, etc.

Also I said nothing of an ITIN and working. I said that illegals get tax benefits. The ITIN number is for processing the 1040 which the majority of what I processed were refunds averaging 1000$.

from the Internal Revenue Manual (IRM)

U.S. Immigration Laws speak of immigrants, non-immigrants, and illegal aliens. U.S. Tax law speaks of resident aliens and nonresident aliens.

• Resident aliens are taxed like U.S. citizens, while nonresident aliens are taxed differently. The tax law applicable to aliens defines residency for tax purposes from how it is defined by immigration law.
• Under the Internal Revenue Code, even illegal aliens (undocumented) are treated as resident aliens if they meet the "Substantial Presence Test" in the tax code. See Publication 519, U.S. Tax Guide for Aliens to determine resident status

substantial presence is not enforced, as described in Pub 519 i had many a discussion with management about this.

It appears that what you are telling me is that the US chose to disobey its own laws, and if the fed disobeys its own laws, then any judge will tell you the law is moot and unconstitutional (under the equal protection clause since the law must either be applied to all equally or not applied at all) and therefore no law was broken. No enforcement is the equivalent of no law.

w7's are a normal course of procedure, many foriegn nationsls doing business in the US fill them out because of their sales here in the US. We have the equivalent for our foreign sales men in other nations who are expats. It is normal business and not unusual, especially in a nation like ours, one of the largest in the world with a strong import economy, tens of thousands is not unheard of, in fact it is normal. So there is nothing unusual about that there, neither in this nation or other nations. I also believe you know by law a 1040 must be submitted since you don't have a tax id without paying taxes ( again much ado about nothing there).

Your presumption about working illegally in the US is incorrect since the US makes provisions for sales internationally.

Consider this link reflecting the issue as being one legally handled. Not illegally mind you. Unless you are overlooking some very crucial law in regard to foreign nationals working in the US.

Please note the following:

The rules relating to US taxation of foreign nationals are quite complicated. There are exceptions to the general rules and the conclusions could be quite varied, depending upon the specific country where the foreign national is resident. It is important that foreign nationals consult with a US tax professional who is knowledgeable in this area to determine their particular US tax status in order to make informed decisions with respect to their US real estate investments.

And that is just real estate. Not too many people indulge in that business I am told...... or do they? . My wife who handles international retail properties in the US and Asia pointed out to me quickly how complicated the entire issue is on real estate alone, not to mention what would happen in regard to other areas which can be equally complicated. And perhaps as a cog in the administrative wheel of the IRS you see only a sliver of issues and have therefore jumped to a conclusion closer to your own predisposition?

I don't quite see it as conspiratorially as you, and what you have told me does not rise to the bar of illegality, though it might if the circumstances were more clearly understood beyond the limited framework you have provided.

All very technical and complicated to be sure.

[Jeff K.]

Unless there is a greater undisclosed reason for minimizing the concept of honesty and obedience to the laws of the land, my theory is that we are compromising our core values for the sake or Public Relations and conversions. The fact that the U.S. Government is relaxed on illegal immigration should not automatically create LDS compromises with illegalities and disobedience. Theoretically speaking.

Whoah NELLIE! Our core values, the First PResidency and the holders of the keys to the Priesthood are compromising the core values?!?!? I respectfully disagree.

[Jeff K.]

If I might, I would like to simply return to the question. We have here an exercise in which we must choose to a certain extent. We must choose for example to follow "the law". To some such laws are the equivalent of doctrine which allows temples be occupied by priesthood holders for salvation and exhaltation. To some such laws reflect the need for order in the world, a reflection of justice. While we have had many arguments consisting of the structure and order of justice and how justice is organized, and how justice must be paid above all things. I am left to wondering how the premortal existence when when similar calls on justice and its organizaiton were made. I think at that point we ourselves were the ones worried about the outcome. How we could survive such a difficult undertaking knowing that justice left us little room for success. Indeed we may have begged for an "out" for some token of mercy that would help us, even as we became interlopers due to our sin. We in essence when we sin, have no right to be associated with the Lord, in fact we illegally do so, until justice is paid.

Repentance on the other hand is not an act of justice but mercy. We are provided with an opportunity to remain within the graces of the Lord's "land" or "house" if you will and make ourselves whole while remaining on that land, which would be forbidden to us if justice alone were our structure.

Repentance, baptism, and the temple, are not structures of justice, but structures of mercy.

So do we deny mercy for others while demanding it for ourselves? What would our lot be if we chose to make our words regarding the demand for justice over mercy, Christs words do us?

[Duncan]

I live in Canada. Up until a few years ago there was an illegal or undocumented or whatever the terminology is serving in the Bishopric in my folks' ward. He and his wife came from Central America. The had a kid born in the States and the two more when they came here. He worked but it was all under the table type stuff.They eventually got deported. That same ward had a guy who had like 10 kids or something all born here and he had molested or raped some kids or something to that effect and he got kicked out and then there was a petition going around in that ward wanting him back and he came back, legally this time. My Mom was furious, they don't want a convicted child molester here but whatever... Two cases where you wonder sometimes.

[frankenstein]

Your presumption about working illegally in the US is incorrect since the US makes provisions for sales internationally.

I don't quite see it as conspiratorially as you, and what you have told me does not rise to the bar of illegality, though it might if the circumstances were more clearly understood beyond the limited framework you have provided.

W7's are submitted for realestate, but as you pointed out those are quite complicated due to the complication of the issue another department handled those.

However, I am not wrong nor conspiratorial about illegal aliens working in the United States, filing taxes, and getting a tax refunds and being treated sometime better under the Tax Code than United States Citizens.

Someone who LEGALLY works in the United States CAN NOT GET A ITIN and does not submitt a W7 or rather is not entitled to ITIN by way of W7 application. The reason being someone who can legally work in the United States has the requisite identifying numbers to file taxes, however a foreign national granted permission to work in the United States can file a W7 for dependents provided those dependents do not have permission to work in the United States.

the issue is very simple, file a W7 with a 1040, get a refund, legal resident or illegal alien.

that you wish to keep you head in the sand of the river denial is quite your prerogative, rather naive and silly of you but go right ahead on with it.

[frankenstein]

I know I'm going to get the wrath of some, but what the heck...

Lehi said this:

"Yea, the Lord hath covenanted this land unto me, and to my children forever, and also all those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord.

Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord." 2 Nephi 1:5-6

Lehi was not just talking about in his day. The Book of Mormon was written for our day and these promises are still in force. This land was consecrated for all those the Lord brings here, and I believe he chooses to bring the remnant of the seed of Joseph here today--and some of it is very likely through illegal immigration-because the Lord doesn't care about borders and right now, we as a nation are not really living up to the demands that he requires of us, to secure his protection and benevolence.

I believe this is one reason why church leaders allow illegal immigrants to be baptized, attend the Temple, serve missions, etc.

Who knows but they were brought here by the hand of the Lord and as part of the fulfillment of prophesy.

What land was consecrated? The western hemisphere? The United States? not sure you what you mean though are you saying that all people who come to the United States are brought here by God or just those that eventually join the Church? and if we take that verse literally "that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord. " then that most certainly means God brought the terrorist here who caused the acts of 911.

CFR

Perhaps you are confusing aiding a criminal with a roll in their spiritual growth. I see a mission president assigning Elders where he feels they are inspired to go. I do not think that a mission president is thinking how can I mess with the INS.

look up the most recent incident of a illegal alien LDS Missioinary who was arrested by Homeland Security happened spring of 2009 I believe in the same article you will read of a Mission President who changed the travel arraignments for an illegal alien missionary who was also returning to home so that the person could avoid law enforcement. the incident was also discussed on MADB and eventually one of the threads was locked.

So do we deny mercy for others while demanding it for ourselves?

good grief, so now we do away with the all law, as you reasoning can be applied to all laws.

As Elder Packard has so famously narrated "mercy CAN NOT ROB justice", justice must be fulfilled - amnesty is an afront to justice and a mockery of our laws, especially since immigration attorneys tell illegal to just wait for the next amnesty.

[ERayR]

Unless there is a greater undisclosed reason for minimizing the concept of honesty and obedience to the laws of the land, my theory is that we are compromising our core values for the sake or Public Relations and conversions. The fact that the U.S. Government is relaxed on illegal immigration should not automatically create LDS compromises with illegalities and disobedience. Theoretically speaking.

Do you obey all trafic laws or do you occasionally speed? Do you come to a complete stop at all stop signs? If not do you think you ought to confess to your bishop and turn in your temple recomend? Before you start claiming apples and oranges I think both are misdemeanors and both are definatly against the law. I seem to remember something about glass houses and rocks.

[Jeff K.]

W7's are submitted for realestate, but as you pointed out those are quite complicated due to the complication of the issue another department handled those.

However, I am not wrong nor conspiratorial about illegal aliens working in the United States, filing taxes, and getting a tax refunds and being treated sometime better under the Tax Code than United States Citizens.

Someone who LEGALLY works in the United States CAN NOT GET A ITIN and does not submitt a W7 or rather is not entitled to ITIN by way of W7 application. The reason being someone who can legally work in the United States has the requisite identifying numbers to file taxes, however a foreign national granted permission to work in the United States can file a W7 for dependents provided those dependents do not have permission to work in the United States.

the issue is very simple, file a W7 with a 1040, get a refund, legal resident or illegal alien.

that you wish to keep you head in the sand of the river denial is quite your prerogative, rather naive and silly of you but go right ahead on with it.

To you the issue is very simple. The law, justice and what not...... mercy should play no part in "the law" and "justice".

To me it is much more than that, and I cannot hide behind the ignorance of not knowing these people, nor am I insulated behind a keyboard in not ministering to those who aren't documented. It would be easy for me and the church to retreat to the idea of "the law" and "justice" without mercy. Well within our rights, I know, I keep hearing that.

And yet, it appears that such a simple thing to you, is not so simple to the prophet and apostles. Nor do I believe you would accuse them of putting their head in the sand. So my policy, my view if you will, seems more in line with the direction they seem to be going. So in your simple terms, how do you reconcile the distinctly different direction you desire for those already here, relative to the indicated course of direction the First Presidency seems to take?

[Jeff K.]

that you wish to keep you head in the sand of the river denial is quite your prerogative, rather naive and silly of you but go right ahead on with it.

Little pups bark, men speak of serious things.

[Anijen]

Have you ever taken a pen from the office?

Have you ever text someone while driving?

Have you ever talked on the cell phone while driving? I believe this might be illegal in some places.

Have you ever pulled off the tag from a mattress.

Have you ever went over the speed limit, passed another car were you shouldn't have, ran a stop sign?

Looked in someone else mail box?

Yelled at your children, perhaps heaven forbid spanked them? Some see this as child abuse.

If you haven't broke any laws then cast the first stone.

If you have broken any of the above laws or any other laws and still answered everything correctly to get a temple recommend but you feel the Church is wrong for not persecuting the illegal immigrants then I feel you are a hypocrite.

[Anijen]

However, I am not wrong nor conspiratorial about illegal aliens working in the United States, filing taxes, and getting a tax refunds and being treated sometime better under the Tax Code than United States Citizens.

Someone who LEGALLY works in the United States CAN NOT GET A ITIN and does not submitt a W7 or rather is not entitled to ITIN by way of W7 application. The reason being someone who can legally work in the United States has the requisite identifying numbers to file taxes, however a foreign national granted permission to work in the United States can file a W7 for dependents provided those dependents do not have permission to work in the United States.

the issue is very simple, file a W7 with a 1040, get a refund, legal resident or illegal alien.

that you wish to keep you head in the sand of the river denial is quite your prerogative, rather naive and silly of you but go right ahead on with it.

This is veering away from the church and members who aren't documented (you know the original topic of this thread). It seems to me you have a lot of angst.

[Anijen]

On the serious side I know illegal immigration is a problem. I have known many many wonderful people who have one time or another been in the country illegally. Do I care? Not in the slightest bit.

I personally feel that if we have true Christ like love we will not see them as an illegal immigrant but as a brother as a sister and a child of God.

[ERayR]

I live in big dairy country and am well aware of the problem undocumented(illegal) immigrants can cause. I see some of it first hand. I am also aware of why a large majority of them are here. I am also smart enough to observe and know that the ones who join the church and are working to better their lives are not the ones causing the problems. I also know that if it were my family is not getting enough to eat an invisible line in the ground would not be an impediment to me doing all I could to take care of that family. The Lord has also commanded that we take care of our families needs. Which do I break, which is the greater sin, to let my families needs go unmet or crossing a border contrary to a governmental law.

[deadeye]

I have close relatives who have worked in Border enforcement for their entire careers. Both are baffled by the apparent embrace of illegal aliens by the church. It definitely seems to run counter to the basic Articles of Faith that everyone's been taught their entire lives.

One bit of confusion is there are anecdotal evidences that some General authorities are very tolerant of illegal aliens (Elder Ballard particularly). A letter co-signed by him distributed to members of the Utah legislature asking for "compassion", or a quote from a newspaper. However, I've paid careful attention to conference talks and other "official" channels from the church and have yet to hear any authoritative statement that we are supposed to openly suspend the principles of honesty, obeying the law, etc for illegal aliens.

Perhaps the leadership of the church is expecting another amnesty at some point? Or perhaps the various quotations that support illegal aliens are not meant to be authoritative statements, but are simply that person "speaking as a man" instead?

I've seen a lot of anger on both sides of this issue, even among church members. It would be nice to have some sort of definitive statement. However, it may not be possible, because the U.S. seems to uniquely have a corrupted system that doesn't consistently enforce the immigration laws because of political or business pressure. Openly embracing illegal behavior probably wouldn't go over very well in other countries that do take their laws seriously.