The Church and members who aren't documented

[Jeff K.]

Most stake presidents are at the top of the food chain in their chosen line of work. He probably employs illegal immigrants to jobs at the price he wants to pay. So of course he would want current illegals to stay and to keep the law the same so that we always have an influx of cheap immigrant labor. Ultimately quality of life is determined in the job you end up with, not government laws.

Sorry to disillusion you of your disillusion of Stake Presidents. Ours for instance is retired from business, and while in business he had paid top wages, even among competitors, it is one reason he had no union issues in CA.

It is a shame you cannot envision more altruistic motives in church leaders, and automatically presume baser instincts.

[rodheadlee]

"We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.(unless breaking that law gives you and your family a better life)"

And at what point do we draw the line? Do we follow a wicked leader unto the death of many?

All I want out of the immigration situation is fair consideration from the other countries, I want to work in Bora Bora, fat chance on getting a work permit, even though I have a promise of a job. I will work in Mexico next month, I won't feel guilty one bit for not going through channels, it's a one week job. What a mess.

[Jeff K.]

I would be careful what you wish for. Can you imagine if Mexico said "OK, we open our borders to you and you open them to us..... Believe me, that is definately not what you want.

People seem to overlook the issue I am presenting. I don't want open borders. I want stronger borders with greater defense, and I would like us to consider mercy for those who have built their lives here already due in part to our (our nation's) own neglect of the issue.

[alter idem]

I'm glad the church refuses to get sucked into the illegal immigrant mess.

I'm proud of my daughter who serves as a missionary to the Spanish speaking people of Houston, Texas-many of whom are no doubt, illegally in this country. I'm thankful that she is able to teach them the gospel, offer the blessings of salvation and eternal life, which allows them the marvelous blessings that Heavenly Father would like all his children to enjoy. I am grateful that missionaries like my daughter are able to bring about the promises made to so many of the Book of Mormon prophets; that the Lord would remember Lehi's seed and gather them along with the rest of the house of Israel in the last days, regardless of their immigration status--that they might also enjoy the blessings attached to the promised land.

The three fold mission of the church is as follows:

1. Proclaim the Gospel

2. Perfect the Saints

3. Redeem the Dead

This is the purpose of the church. Illegal immigration has been allowed to balloon into the problem that it is today, but it should not be allowed to obstruct the church as it fulfills it's important mission.

I feel there is a danger when some lose sight of priorities and allow temporal concerns to outweigh spiritual matters.

I also think that if we have faith that a Prophet, through divine inspiration, leads and guides this church, then we should be at peace with those who've been called to lead us, set policy and administer the church's affairs.

[Anijen]

Vindicator and others first I am very grateful for your and your ancestry service to this country and to the Lords church. Let me repeat that I am very, even incredibly grateful for your and any who serve the Lord and or serve for this country.

I would also like to emphasize as much as possible I do not condone breaking the law. I do not condone our hispanic brother or sister coming into our country illegally. I believe we should obey the laws of the land. I do with the occasional speeding thing I am a very patriotic law abiding citizen. Breaking the law is wrong.

Okay now that is clear. I can empathize with our neighbors from Mexico or any other corrupted and financially strapped country. If I lived there I would be trying to get to the United States even as an indentured servant if I had to like some of my ancestors before me did. I would be failing as a husband and as a father if I did not do all I can to make a better life a safer life for my family. I would try to come into the country legally and it might take up to twenty years. This is truth ask CI (Confidential Informant) how long could it take to get into this country legally. But what if I don't have that time or my family? What if the need medical attention that is easily provided in the US but I cant get in Mexico without a huge bribe? What if they are hungry and we have no place to live? These questions are not rhetorical they are real and they are urgent.

I would hope for some compassion and sympathy from my brothers and sisters as I enter the country illegally to solve some of life's basic needs. While I am here I would exhaust every opportunity to become legal. If you want to blame me for taking this point of view, so be it.

As far as the church goes I will agree with them they are not here to be enforcers of the countries laws. They do not need to ask if someone is illegal or legal during a baptismal or temple recommend interview. They do not need to ask for our "papers" to conduct ordinances etc. They are here to bring people to Christ and help us to return to him, period.

[Vindicator]

I'm glad the church refuses to get sucked into the illegal immigrant mess.

I'm proud of my daughter who serves as a missionary to the Spanish speaking people of Houston, Texas-many of whom are no doubt, illegally in this country. I'm thankful that she is able to teach them the gospel, offer the blessings of salvation and eternal life, which allows them the marvelous blessings that Heavenly Father would like all his children to enjoy. I am grateful that missionaries like my daughter are able to bring about the promises made to so many of the Book of Mormon prophets; that the Lord would remember Lehi's seed and gather them along with the rest of the house of Israel in the last days, regardless of their immigration status--that they might also enjoy the blessings attached to the promised land.

The three fold mission of the church is as follows:

1. Proclaim the Gospel

2. Perfect the Saints

3. Redeem the Dead

This is the purpose of the church. Illegal immigration has been allowed to balloon into the problem that it is today, but it should not be allowed to obstruct the church as it fulfills it's important mission.

I feel there is a danger when some lose sight of priorities and allow temporal concerns to outweigh spiritual matters.

I also think that if we have faith that a Prophet, through divine inspiration, leads and guides this church, then we should be at peace with those who've been called to lead us, set policy and administer the church's affairs.

Glad to hear your proud of your daughter, I've heard she is a wonderful, beautiful young woman. When she baptizes the new investigators does she and the Church tell them they have to move back to Mexico, now that their sins are all washed away and start over the right way.

Here's an Idea, why don't we just eliminate our boarders completely, tell everyone at the United nations the USA is a free for all, be cause we as "Mormon's believe everyone should come to promised land legal or illegally. And after all our resources are exhausted and everyone starts forcing their cultures on us as we see happening now but in a bigger sense where do we go then? Hope you got lots of money and food storage and a safe haven, because your suggesting we teach them it's okay to come and take whatever they want. After all, this is the "Promised Land"

Vindicator-

[Anijen]

Glad to hear your proud of your daughter, I've heard she is a wonderful, beautiful young woman. When she baptizes the new investigators does she and the Church tell them they have to move back to Mexico, now that their sins are all washed away and start over the right way.

Here's an Idea, why don't we just eliminate our boarders completely, tell everyone at the United nations the USA is a free for all, be cause we as "Mormon's believe everyone should come to promised land legal or illegally. And after all our resources are exhausted and everyone starts forcing their cultures on us as we see happening now but in a bigger sense where do we go then? Hope you got lots of money and food storage and a safe haven, because your suggesting we teach them it's okay to come and take whatever they want. After all, this is the "Promised Land"

Vindicator-

*heavy sigh*

[Geaux LSU]

....snip for brevity....

....

Okay now that is clear. I can empathize with our neighbors from Mexico or any other corrupted and financially strapped country....

Why do we presume all illegals to be from Mexico?

[Smith]

I would like to add a point that I don't think has been raised in this thread yet.

I think it is a fine line the Church has to walk, one between helping helping God's children and the other of obeying the Laws of a country. I don't know how precarious a position the Church occupies in the USA or other countries but in mine, well, its not on as solid a footing as say those longtime ones of the Calvinist leaning are. Our country also has a very large influx of refugees and many are struggling just as has been described here on this thread by others and I think in even greater ways because of the eruption of xenophobic violence threatening their very lives.

If the Church is seen/found to be helping illegal immigrants overstay their alloted time or find work illegally then it stands to lose its license to operate, its property, and even its permission for members to meet together. It can be shut down and kicked out. On the other hand people are in need of the necessities of life. And when they are we help within our limited means.

It is a problem I am faced with constantly. And one which can suck the resources of the Church dry very quickly if not handled properly.

[Vindicator]

*heavy sigh*

I'm a guy that's likes to study the facts, the "Do the Math" kind of guy! So, you live in a nice neighborhood. House is worth $180,000.00. We allow the Illegals in the country, everyone in your nice neighborhood loses their jobs because the poor starving people are willing to work for less. Soon, everyone defaults on their homes. But the depraved illegals get in Via Section 8. Now your alone in your once Ivory Tower, reduced to an Adobe hut, thank you section 8. All of a sudden you don't fit in the neighborhood. "Cultural thing" Time to move, but wait there's more, you don't have any equity in your home because your poor depraved illegals devalued the neighborhood,

mayber you can move in with Mom?

Any of this sinking in? IN Alter Idem's situation, shouldn't they be living the princibles of the Gospel before being baptized? Temple recommend questions, are you honest in your business dealings and with your fellow man? How can you baptize someone who is "currently" breaking the law and has no intentions of not doing so...

any of this hitting home yet? Your saying it's okay to give away to illegals that which I have struggled and worked my life for to accomplish for my family and son's???????

Thank you, Vindicator-

[alter idem]

Glad to hear your proud of your daughter, I've heard she is a wonderful, beautiful young woman. When she baptizes the new investigators does she and the Church tell them they have to move back to Mexico, now that their sins are all washed away and start over the right way.

No, she doesn't tell them that. After they are baptized, she works with the members of the ward to help make sure new converts(regardless of their immigration status) are fellowshipped and receive callings and work towards going to the temple.

And hopefully, some of them will serve missions. We have a sister serving from our ward who is illegal--she's serving in a neighboring state and she's a fantastic missionary. She's also teaching Spanish speaking investigators, so no doubt, some of them are illegals as well.

Here's an Idea, why don't we just eliminate our boarders completely, tell everyone at the United nations the USA is a free for all, be cause we as "Mormon's believe everyone should come to promised land legal or illegally. And after all our resources are exhausted and everyone starts forcing their cultures on us as we see happening now but in a bigger sense where do we go then? Hope you got lots of money and food storage and a safe haven, because your suggesting we teach them it's okay to come and take whatever they want. After all, this is the "Promised Land"

Vindicator-

The border problem is the Govt.'s problem. We need our govt. to enforce the rules and strenghthen the border, not the church. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is in the business of saving souls and bringing people to Christ. We have the Book of Mormon and it tells us some very important prophesies about the native peoples of this hemisphere. We know the promises that have been made to them, we know what our responsibility it. Gather the House of Israel. To me, it's clear that our Prophet and leaders understand this, even if some members do not.

[alter idem]

I'm a guy that's likes to study the facts, the "Do the Math" kind of guy! So, you live in a nice neighborhood. House is worth $180,000.00. We allow the Illegals in the country, everyone in your nice neighborhood loses their jobs because the poor starving people are willing to work for less. Soon, everyone defaults on their homes. But the depraved illegals get in Via Section 8. Now your alone in your once Ivory Tower, reduced to an Adobe hut, thank you section 8. All of a sudden you don't fit in the neighborhood. "Cultural thing" Time to move, but wait there's more, you don't have any equity in your home because your poor depraved illegals devalued the neighborhood,

mayber you can move in with Mom?

I'm not sure where you live, but I have not seen that illegal immigrants cause these kinds of problems. I think some people use illegals(or any other race or group of people) as a convenient excuse to blame their problems on, rather than consider their own shortcomings as the real reason for problems.

Any of this sinking in? IN Alter Idem's situation, shouldn't they be living the princibles of the Gospel before being baptized? Temple recommend questions, are you honest in your business dealings and with your fellow man? How can you baptize someone who is "currently" breaking the law and has no intentions of not doing so...

any of this hitting home yet? Your saying it's okay to give away to illegals that which I have struggled and worked my life for to accomplish for my family and son's???????

Thank you, Vindicator-

As long as the Govt. is wishy washy about it's policies and it's borders, why should the church take a hard line stance? Especially if taking a hard line stance would impede the mission of the church?

[alter idem]

I would like to add a point that I don't think has been raised in this thread yet.

I think it is a fine line the Church has to walk, one between helping helping God's children and the other of obeying the Laws of a country. I don't know how precarious a position the Church occupies in the USA or other countries but in mine, well, its not on as solid a footing as say those longtime ones of the Calvinist leaning are. Our country also has a very large influx of refugees and many are struggling just as has been described here on this thread by others and I think in even greater ways because of the eruption of xenophobic violence threatening their very lives.

If the Church is seen/found to be helping illegal immigrants overstay their alloted time or find work illegally then it stands to lose its license to operate, its property, and even its permission for members to meet together. It can be shut down and kicked out. On the other hand people are in need of the necessities of life. And when they are we help within our limited means.

It is a problem I am faced with constantly. And one which can suck the resources of the Church dry very quickly if not handled properly.

I suspect that you understand this better than some members because of where you live and the poverty that you see. Here in the United States, it's seems that even our poor people are rich! But go to another country and it is astonishing the poverty that many people live in!

The church recently added a statement to the Three fold mission to make sure that we understand that there is a fourth aspect that goes along with these:

The LDS Church is adding "to care for the poor and needy" to its longstanding "threefold mission," which is to preach the LDS gospel, purify members' lives and provide saving ordinances such as baptism to those who have died.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13965607

I don't think the church wants to be mired in this, but just concern itself with the work of the gospel

[frankenstein]

I would try to come into the country legally and it might take up to twenty years. This is truth ask CI (Confidential Informant) how long could it take to get into this country legally

it varies by country, but yes, from Mexico it takes twenty years, and that is because of backlog in processing.

[O-Brother]

Scenario I discussed with a friend who teaches Sunday School and Gospel doctrine. It goes like this:

1. Person enters the country illegally, typically by two means. The first, a valid visa that later expires and the person never goes home or ...

2. Person is smuggled in by friends and relatives or crosses the border via non-patrolled entry points - there are several of them.

3. Person joins family or friends and now needs a job. Person cannot work without a social security number.

4. Person falsifies, buys on the street or makes up a social security number that happens to match some child or adult in somewhere U.S.A.

5. Person applies for a job at a fast food restaurant and is forced to lie on the application about status

6. Employer is not in charge of verifying legal status, collects the false information from the applicant and the employment is granted.

7. The person is now violating U.S. law by not having permission to work in the United States.

8. Person is now violating U.S. law by remaining in the United States.

9. Person is now violating U.S. law by using someone else's social security number without permission

10. Person has lied to the employer in order to obtain employment.

11. Person needs to drive so he lies on his application to get a driver's license or in some states he simply gets a driving privilege card

12. Person now earns money, rents, buys a car and begins living in the United States without permission

13. Person meets missionaries, learns about the Church, the Gospel and decides to join the Church.

14. Person is interviewed for "worthiness" and willingness to obey the 10 Commandments, one of which is THOU SHALL NOT STEAL

15. Person is interviewed for worthiness and willingness to obey the 10 Commandments, one of which is THOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS

16. Person says he will comply with 14 and 15 above whenever he can, someday. In some cases person just says yes, I do.

17. Person is told that LDS members believe in the law of tithing and person agrees to pay tithing

18. Person is asked if there are issues that need attention, he says no, nothing he can think of

19. Interview goes great, baptism date is set. Person is baptized and confirmed a member and the Gift of the Holy Ghost is asked to be upon that person

20. After a while. person is ordained to the Aaronic Priesthood and later to the Melquisedec Priesthood.

21. Person attends Church and pays tithing from the money he obtains from his unauthorized employment and using his fake social security number

22. Person is ordained an Elder and decides to go on a mission.

23. Person is interviewed for a temple recommend and obtains one so he can attend the temple

24. Person receives his mission call but cannot serve outside the United States because he wouldn't be able to come back as a missionary for the Church

25. Person teaches people about the principles of the Gospel, including obedience to the Ten Commandments, being honest, tithing, the restoration, etc.

26. Person now baptizes other people who may be in the same situation he was and he feels good about bringing others into the Gospel and the cycle repeats itself

27. Person is "honorably" released and, if all goes well, comes back to his home Ward and gets called to serve in Priesthood capacity.

28. Person enrolls into a local college, uses the social security number he has always used before, gets in-state tuition and graduates with honors.

29. Person now looks for work but his illegal status now forces him to go back to the same lies he started with. He's now an Elder.

30. Person attends the temple regularly

At this point, the following can happen:

Person meets a nice, faithful LDS young lady who happened to be born in the U.S. and kept herself worthy to meet her eternal companion. They go through the temple interviews and pass with flying colors. They get married. Find a competent attorney and apply for his permanent resident card. His attorney will then make some recommendations about how to handle his immigration status since he entered the country illegally, a fact that can jeopardize his interview with immigration authorities. Interviews are video-recorded and conducted under oath with penalty of perjury. So he's counseled on how to work with the system in order to validate his marriage to a U.S. citizen. If all goes well and instructions are followed, fees are paid, paperwork is completed he gets his green card a few months later and lives happily ever after enjoying his permanent resident status and potential citizenship down the road, pending yet another under oath interview with an immigration official, again video taped and under the penalty of perjury.

This story represents a very common scenario among illegal immigrants who become LDS with the variation that sometimes a person is brought into the country very young.

If they are born here, birth citizenship applies so the story doesn't apply.

For those of you who are pro or against illegal immigration, tell us what you think is right and what you think is wrong with this typical scenario?

[rodheadlee]

I would be careful what you wish for. Can you imagine if Mexico said "OK, we open our borders to you and you open them to us..... Believe me, that is definately not what you want.

People seem to overlook the issue I am presenting. I don't want open borders. I want stronger borders with greater defense, and I would like us to consider mercy for those who have built their lives here already due in part to our (our nation's) own neglect of the issue.

I agree, but there should be some kind of work program that is not a huge problem, it should be like getting a tourist visa for 30-90 days or even 6 months.

edited to add: This would take care of migrant farm and construction workers.

[Jeff K.]

I agree, but there should be some kind of work program that is not a huge problem, it should be like getting a tourist visa for 30-90 days or even 6 months.

edited to add: This would take care of migrant farm and construction workers.

It is an option that has been used before, it was at one time called the bracero program which the US had in place since WWII up until the 70's. But it doesn't answer the basic needs of those who are here. Those who would indeed be driven to poverty if forced to return.

[Jeff K.]

Scenario I discussed with a friend who teaches Sunday School and Gospel doctrine. It goes like this:

1. Person enters the country illegally, typically by two means. The first, a valid visa that later expires and the person never goes home or ...

2. Person is smuggled in by friends and relatives or crosses the border via non-patrolled entry points - there are several of them.

3. Person joins family or friends and now needs a job. Person cannot work without a social security number.

4. Person falsifies, buys on the street or makes up a social security number that happens to match some child or adult in somewhere U.S.A.

5. Person applies for a job at a fast food restaurant and is forced to lie on the application about status

6. Employer is not in charge of verifying legal status, collects the false information from the applicant and the employment is granted.

7. The person is now violating U.S. law by not having permission to work in the United States.

8. Person is now violating U.S. law by remaining in the United States.

9. Person is now violating U.S. law by using someone else's social security number without permission

10. Person has lied to the employer in order to obtain employment.

11. Person needs to drive so he lies on his application to get a driver's license or in some states he simply gets a driving privilege card

12. Person now earns money, rents, buys a car and begins living in the United States without permission

13. Person meets missionaries, learns about the Church, the Gospel and decides to join the Church.

14. Person is interviewed for "worthiness" and willingness to obey the 10 Commandments, one of which is THOU SHALL NOT STEAL

15. Person is interviewed for worthiness and willingness to obey the 10 Commandments, one of which is THOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS

16. Person says he will comply with 14 and 15 above whenever he can, someday. In some cases person just says yes, I do.

17. Person is told that LDS members believe in the law of tithing and person agrees to pay tithing

18. Person is asked if there are issues that need attention, he says no, nothing he can think of

19. Interview goes great, baptism date is set. Person is baptized and confirmed a member and the Gift of the Holy Ghost is asked to be upon that person

20. After a while. person is ordained to the Aaronic Priesthood and later to the Melquisedec Priesthood.

21. Person attends Church and pays tithing from the money he obtains from his unauthorized employment and using his fake social security number

22. Person is ordained an Elder and decides to go on a mission.

23. Person is interviewed for a temple recommend and obtains one so he can attend the temple

24. Person receives his mission call but cannot serve outside the United States because he wouldn't be able to come back as a missionary for the Church

25. Person teaches people about the principles of the Gospel, including obedience to the Ten Commandments, being honest, tithing, the restoration, etc.

26. Person now baptizes other people who may be in the same situation he was and he feels good about bringing others into the Gospel and the cycle repeats itself

27. Person is "honorably" released and, if all goes well, comes back to his home Ward and gets called to serve in Priesthood capacity.

28. Person enrolls into a local college, uses the social security number he has always used before, gets in-state tuition and graduates with honors.

29. Person now looks for work but his illegal status now forces him to go back to the same lies he started with. He's now an Elder.

30. Person attends the temple regularly

At this point, the following can happen:

Person meets a nice, faithful LDS young lady who happened to be born in the U.S. and kept herself worthy to meet her eternal companion. They go through the temple interviews and pass with flying colors. They get married. Find a competent attorney and apply for his permanent resident card. His attorney will then make some recommendations about how to handle his immigration status since he entered the country illegally, a fact that can jeopardize his interview with immigration authorities. Interviews are video-recorded and conducted under oath with penalty of perjury. So he's counseled on how to work with the system in order to validate his marriage to a U.S. citizen. If all goes well and instructions are followed, fees are paid, paperwork is completed he gets his green card a few months later and lives happily ever after enjoying his permanent resident status and potential citizenship down the road, pending yet another under oath interview with an immigration official, again video taped and under the penalty of perjury.

This story represents a very common scenario among illegal immigrants who become LDS with the variation that sometimes a person is brought into the country very young.

If they are born here, birth citizenship applies so the story doesn't apply.

For those of you who are pro or against illegal immigration, tell us what you think is right and what you think is wrong with this typical scenario?

The scenario has no humanity in it. It lacks the touch of Christ. Other than that, I am sure it fulfills mans justice quite well.

It is easy to type here. Most people don't interact with the families I have interacted with. Some perhaps don't even care what happens to those families as long as "the law of the land" is maintained. But in the end, some just don't care about the families. What would that say to we saints who choose not to care, but maintain "the law of the land"? Mercy is for us and the to be given to us from the Lord, however we spare no mercy for others? Sadly the narrative reflects just that.

Allow me to present to you real life, and not a story.

The (for want of a better name) Garcia family came to the United States 20 years ago from Mexico. An impovershed town with nothing to offer. He and his wife crossed the border in the dead of night, and it wasn't much of a worry because the US gave a wink and a nod to the issue. It needed workers and thought it was easier than overhauling immigration. Unemployment in the US was 4% roughly, and 2 to 3% was temporary (people moving to new jobs and what not). From an economic standpoint, illegal immigration actually put a hold on inflationary drivers, one reason it wasn't a big issue then, too many jobs not enough people. So brother Garcia comes the US, he and his wife meet the missionaries, and they are baptized. They are good and faithful members, their children come over and they have children here. They are good members, temple holders. The church does not take issue with their citizenship, they hold temple recommends. They love the Lord.

Brother Garcia also is very good at his job, he is competent and the people around him respect him for his example, for his dedication to work and family. He is what we US citizens are proud to call neighbors. He helps his ward out, helps the poor, not only in his ward and community, but whenever he can. Saves his money and teaches his family to work hard too. Tells them that if they are smart and work hard they can go to college. He is one of those wonderful people that are the glue of American society that we Saints so often feel are missing.

Along comes someone who says, ok, you have done much good in this country, not only for your church, for your ward, but also for America. But that doesn't matter. In fact, this person who has a strong commitment to "law of the land" feels that the temple recommend he holds and the times he goes into the Temple should be restricted.

"Let him do it in his own land".

But his children and he are American, they may not have the documents, but they love this land, and its people. They love the opportunities here to grow, that were not available from the land of their birth. Brother Garcia will also know that his family will once again be imporvershed, his sons and daughters will not go to college, they will not be an asset to humanity that they could have been. They will not prosper and strengthen family in their home country.

"Not my problem" is the reply. "You should not have come in the first place. It is your problem to solve and deal with".

I know such a family. And I defy a disciple of Christ to deny him and his children a future in this nation. Because the judgement laid down for "the law of the land" goes against a higher law. Especially with Brother Garcia.

I would never attempt to impoversh such a family and sleep guiltlessly knowing I have pretty much destroyed their future. In supporting such a position, I know I break the law of the land. But here is my question. Whom will Christ judge more harshly? My breaking the law of the land, or the person who placed a good family in poverty in order to meet Caesers requirements?

[O-Brother]

The scenario has no humanity in it. It lacks the touch of Christ. Other than that, I am sure it fulfills mans justice quite well.

So brother Garcia comes the US, he and his wife meet the missionaries, and they are baptized. They are good and faithful members, their children come over and they have children here. They are good members, temple holders. The church does not take issue with their citizenship, they hold temple recommends. They love the Lord.

Brother Garcia also is very good at his job, he is competent and the people around him respect him for his example, for his dedication to work and family. He is what we US citizens are proud to call neighbors. He helps his ward out, helps the poor, not only in his ward and community, but whenever he can. Saves his money and teaches his family to work hard too. Tells them that if they are smart and work hard they can go to college. He is one of those wonderful people that are the glue of American society that we Saints so often feel are missing.

Along comes someone who says, ok, you have done much good in this country, not only for your church, for your ward, but also for America. But that doesn't matter. In fact, this person who has a strong commitment to "law of the land" feels that the temple recommend he holds and the times he goes into the Temple should be restricted.

"Let him do it in his own land".

But his children and he are American, they may not have the documents, but they love this land, and its people. They love the opportunities here to grow, that were not available from the land of their birth. Brother Garcia will also know that his family will once again be imporvershed, his sons and daughters will not go to college, they will not be an asset to humanity that they could have been. They will not prosper and strengthen family in their home country.

"Not my problem" is the reply. "You should not have come in the first place. It is your problem to solve and deal with".

I know such a family. And I defy a disciple of Christ to deny him and his children a future in this nation. Because the judgement laid down for "the law of the land" goes against a higher law. Especially with Brother Garcia.

I would never attempt to impoversh such a family and sleep guiltlessly knowing I have pretty much destroyed their future. In supporting such a position, I know I break the law of the land. But here is my question. Whom will Christ judge more harshly? My breaking the law of the land, or the person who placed a good family in poverty in order to meet Caesers requirements?

Let me ask you a question while I hold back my tears after reading how one person's needs justifies breaking the law of the land, rationalizes how the end justifies the means and that jumping ahead of legal immigrants who are trying to do the right things to live here justifies entitlements and benefits. While those LDS members who oppose illegal immigration are grotesquely characterized as cold, destroyers of bright futures, bigots, draconian and inhumane mean spirited LDS people:

Are you pro or against illegal immigration?

Before you answer that, do you have a similar story to tell us about a family who tried to come here legally, abides by the 12th and 13th articles of faith and plays by the rules? Because those are the stories that closely match what the Church stands for, what Christ taught and what scores of talks refer to as being honest in all things, obedience, obeying the Ten Commandments, not stealing, not bearing false witness, answering temple interviews honestly, etc. You know, the types of things we tend to teach our children.

All your story tells us is that, as long as you you work hard, do good, love America (Why wouldn't they, it's better here if they're poor in their homeland) want a great future for your children, etc., you're welcome to enter the country illegally and bypass all systems, laws and screenings that are designed to keep things in order and balance. Immigrant is a legal status that's earned by virtue of compliance, it's not a status that you get by virtue of crossing the border illegally.

Your notion of charity, compassion, love, etc., simply denotes how people can get away with violating the laws of the land and how they can get support based on playing on your emotions and heart strings.

Did you know that for every illegal immigrant that's here, there is at least one family member waiting as musch as 10 years to come to America? I have one such family member. Now, whom would Christ approve of? The one that's trying to be honest or the one that cheats his way to get benefits, privileges and opportunities? Whose side are you on, the cheater with good intentions or the honest person who respects the laws of the land?

While you think about the answer or discount my reply as "no humanity", think about that LDS Mexican family in Mexico, members who are also poor, but who are obeying the laws of their land, pays an honest tithing, doesn't lie and does the best they can with what they have THERE like we do the best we can with what we have here. Who will the Lord bless more? The family that cheats or them? They know they can come here and cheat the system but choose to stay in Mexico and be good saints there, like millions of others in their wards and stakes. They know that if the Lords wants them to immigrate here, that He will provide a way for that to happen, legally.

Hear it from legal immigrants themselves:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=vQ8J2lRqvWc

After that, i suggest your watch Tanya's story. Legal Immigrant- Tanya From Melitopol, Ukraine Look it up on YouTube. I won't post the video here.

[Jeff K.]

I say those who have legally filled our their documents should indeed be granted first priorty while those already here are granted partial rights to remain until their work is done. I wouldn't even be upset with an additional payroll tax on those who are here illegally in order to help contain the costs.

What my true story does, and it is true... is humanize the issue. You are willing to destroy the future of these individuals who are doing well and doing more for our nation than many "legal" citizens. You go ahead, go to that man and tell him you love him as a brother while you drive him and his family to poverty. It kind of rings hollow don't you think?

[frankenstein]

Because the judgement laid down for "the law of the land" goes against a higher law

what is the "higher law"

Is it love God, and love your neighbor, with the addendum from the Doctrine and Covenants about keeping the laws of God.

As for the story you tell, it does depict what it means to be American i.e. lie, cheat and steal and you can prosper in America, laws only apply to other people.

[O-Brother]

I say those who have legally filled our their documents should indeed be granted first priorty while those already here are granted partial rights to remain until their work is done. I wouldn't even be upset with an additional payroll tax on those who are here illegally in order to help contain the costs.

What my true story does, and it is true... is humanize the issue. You are willing to destroy the future of these individuals who are doing well and doing more for our nation than many "legal" citizens. You go ahead, go to that man and tell him you love him as a brother while you drive him and his family to poverty. It kind of rings hollow don't you think?

Oh please. Their fate was determined long ago when they decided to enter the country illegally. They should know the risks. Doing more than legal citizens? I won't even comment on that one. There are no partial rights. If the House of the Lord is a house of order, what do you suppose our Wards, ordinances, temple interviews, missions, etc., should be like? I hate to tell you this, brother, but anything with the word "illegal" in front of it has no business with the LDS faith and Church, regardless of how hard you try to justify it. The implications of supporting anything illegal, whether it's illegal immigration, theft, robbery, employment, earnings, marriage, fraud, cheating, taxes, etc. should have no connection with the modern Church in any way, shape or form, lest we find ourselves preaching double-standards. We've got a problem that cannot be solved as long as we keep sending the message out that as long as you do things for a good cause, to feed your family or have a better life, it's ok to cheat the system and enjoy life in America. Anyone who's been to Mexico, for example, knows that you can have a very good life there. I've been there. I've done business there. I have friends there. I've even dated there. I strongly disagree with people that think that ALL Mexicans are poor. Perhaps I should post some photos and videos here of how nice Mexico really is. It's not the dump that most Americans think it is so for those who want a better life, they can realize that in Mexico without cheating our system. Now, if you want to talk poverty, let's talk Africa. Heavenly Father is the God of ALL people but if He wanted everyone to live here in the United States, everyone would have been here now. The continents would have been on big land mass, the languages would have not been confused in the tower of Babel and there would be no countries. Maybe someday, but not now. The New Jerusalem is not here and won't be here by illicit means. Confusion is not of God. God is a God of order and a God of laws, both temporal and eternal. I don't think anyone here has suggested that we mistreat people or that we round them up and send them home. That's not our job. What's being suggested is that there is no justification for cheating and that the damages are real especially when illegal immigration replaces jobs, drains budgets, plays a big part in depleting funds so states can't pay for education, teachers, depletes medical care, social services and many other things. So, it's not a good idea for us to rationalize illegal immigration the way we have been. It's just plain wrong. We can love our children and our brothers and sisters and point them in the right direction but we can't force anyone to see the light or do things right. Plus, every time we support illegal immigration and single it out to a handful of ethnic groups, we hurt legal immigration for many in the process and that's not fair to those who want to play by the rules.

Do you really want a Church where a growing number of its members are breaking laws and while at it, still advancing in the Priesthood, serving missions and attending the temple? Think about it. Pray about it. I have.

[Anijen]

Why do we presume all illegals to be from Mexico?

Obviously I didn't hence when I said any other country.

[Anijen]

I will agree to disagree. I will not participate no more in this thread. I tried to explain my feelings. Jeff K post (118) was eloquently put forth and I think is an excellent summation and I could not do a better job. My last thoughts on the matter are there are a lot more callused unsympathetic people than I realized.

[O-Brother]

I will agree to disagree. I will not participate no more in this thread. I tried to explain my feelings. Jeff K post (118) was eloquently put forth and I think is an excellent summation and I could not do a better job. My last thoughts on the matter are there are a lot more callused unsympathetic people than I realized.

I think what you found out is that there are a few smart, educated LDS members here who don't agree with illegal immigration regardless of how it's dressed, adorned or presented. But you could have ended your participation without a veiled insult because other members don't agree with you. There are millions of people who agree with your point of view on the issue and there are millions of people who disagree. That's what makes America great, that we can agree to disagree. Reminds me of something a Prophet once said:

"Pride is concerned with who is right. Humility is concerned with what is right."