Joseph's visions of the Nephite Civilization...

[rodheadlee]

CFR on the metal objects.

Drawings in caves are nearly universal to stone-age human cultures. They aren't really good evidence for a BOM lands, unless they are in Reformed Egyptian and can be C14 dated to the right time period!

"In 2001, a larger project was carried out and we excavated 7 meters x 1 meter down to bed rock, which was between 80 cm and 1m 40 cm deep. We found numerous shellfish remains and lithics, some land and marine fauna remains, seeds, wood remains and some shell ornaments and tools. A burial was found associated with numerous metal objects. Until now we cannot confirm the age of the first human occupation, but it is older than 10,000 years ago. After 10,000 years, the site was occupied continuously until European contact."

From:http://www.innerexplorations.com/bajatext/an.htm

[rodheadlee]

more from the same site:

"As I mentioned before, a burial (adult male) was found in a flexed position associated with numerous metal objects and Comond

[rodheadlee]

Niagara falls????

That and numerous foul currents, cape roundings or contrary tradewinds.

[Anijen]

shrff 03 February 2010 - 02:28 PM

What books are you reading? Are they written by archaeologists in the last 20 years?

Mound Builders by Robert Silverberg and The Moundbuilders by George R. Minor

1. The Archeological evidence of the Hopewell culture does not meet (ever) the populations that the text of the Book of Mormon requires. Mesoamerica does.

Sevenbak

I don't know why it needs to. It wasn't until Helaman that the people even started migrating there in earnest. And we know at the destruction of Christ, the land northward got hit the worst. To expect a huge population northward so far from the Nephite homeland in Mesoamerica is a misunderstanding, imo.

I agree. I made this statement to support that the events in the Book of Mormon were not the Hopewells though I do believe they were influenced by people migrating North.

You should read the pdf I just enclosed on the Brush Creek Tablet. It speaks of the early settlers finding a , ahem, cement box filled with a large odd variant of wheat, most of which crumbled, but some of which grew producing about 5 lbs of kernels. I sure wish we had more documentation, that would be cool if true

I read it. I am at this point in time have reservations concerning the Brush Creek Tablet, it is something I need to study more. I like to study and when I don't have enough info I usually go to amazon and buy a used book.

There are mayan type writings that have popped up in some Hopewell mounds, so I don't think you can disconnect the two

I would be very interested in reading about this. Are they legit?

4. The Hopewell's were hunter gatherers the people of the Book of Mormon were not. Mesoamerican were not hunter gatherers during the time of the BoM (or after).

I don't think that can be proven for a fact.

Well since they had small populations it is a bit more difficult to prove, as opposed to larger populations in which it would require domesticated agriculture. But every book (guns germs and steel by Diamond, Mound Builders by Silverberg and The Moundbuilders by Miner) I have read so far on them tends to think this way.

6. The land of the Hopewell's never had deforestation anywhere as the Book of Mormon claims. Mesoamerica did.

I disagree. The Hopewell region has been studied to have had extensive deforestation in about the same time period Moroni claimed the land northward did.

Hmmm, do you have the source to that quote? I would like to read that more. If so, I stand corrected.

I forgot to add here about population. Mormon was carried into the land southward (Zarahemla) by his father at age 11. He makes specific references to how much more populated with both people and buildings of every kind, compared to his own homeland, which is easily assumed to be the land Northward. Why we should be looking for large population structures in the land northward is beyond me.

Again I agree with you about populations in the great lakes area. However we have to disagree with how far his father carried him I am thinking from a northern place like around present day Veracruz south toward Zerahemla.

Joseph doesn't mention Zelph by name, but to say he didn't speak of the incident, when all around him were also recording it in their own journals is just asking for trouble

.I agree with the Zelph account I just don't think we can take each account by memory and not from Joesph as if they were all factual. I believe there is some truth in them (as far as they are translated correctly, yes a pun).

I too think it's been "watered down" over the years, which is why I frequently get aggrivated here on MADB.

Then we are in 100% agreement

View PostMola Ram Suda Ram, on 03 February 2010 - 05:25 PM, said:

There is strong supportive evidence that the Nephites thought that they were on an island or at least mostly surrounded by water. ..

You take that reference literally, being on an island? Just curious.

I was born on the island of japan lived on Guam and served my Mission in the Marshall Islands. I have spoke with many islanders many view the continent of North America as an Island. My Samoan and Tongan companions both made statements to "when I visit your island" (they knew I lived in Utah at the time). I think when the word island comes up or seas or great deep, we need to not read it with presentism, but know the terms could be written with one view and read with another. Besides I am pretty sure Mola is an islander himself and I would take his view of what he means as Island more so than BOMG. Big up for Mola

rodheadlee I have sailed the Sea of Cortez for 2 years and I can tell you that Baja is no joke, the veil is very thin in this sacred Sea. I don't know where it fits in BoM geography but there have been metal objects found in gravesites dating back to the proper time period as well as drawings on the walls of caves. The Sea of Cortez is unforgiving to those who come unprepared but is a wonder to those who respect her.

Because of your unique perspective as a sailor, I always look forward to your post. Thanks.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You're in the dark. Our model is here: www.bookofmormongeography.org

.

I looked at a few things on your site, here is one of them.

Fact: A New Jerusalem will be built on Book of Mormon lands.

The New Jerusalem Is Already Here

The following verses make it clear the New Jerusalem would be setup before the Book of Mormon came forth:

22 But if they (Gentiles) will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob (Indians), unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;

23 And they (Gentiles) shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob (Indians), and also as many of the house of Israel (Jews) as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.

24 And then shall they (Gentiles) assist my people (Indians) that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the New Jerusalem.

25 And then shall the power of heaven come down among them; and I also will be in the midst.

26 And then shall the work of the Father commence at that day, even when this gospel shall be preached among the remnant of this people. Verily I say unto you, at that day shall the work of the Father commence among all the dispersed of my people, yea, even the tribes which have been lost, which the Father hath led away out of Jerusalem. (3 Nephi 21)

For me there seems to be a disconnect.

The original fact is: A New Jerusalem will be built on Book of Mormon lands.

This is something the text never claims. It only says that the New Jerusalem would be built by the gentiles and some of the Jews and some of the scattared people of Jacob's remnant.

It just seems to be a whole lot of assumption. The text never claims that the New Jeruslam would be built were Nephi lived or were Jacob lived. It would carry more weight if the text said that the New Jerusalem would be built by the gentiles and the remant of Jocob in the land of your inheritance.

"Scattered upon the face of the land" is not defined. Once they are scattered they could be any were, as that is what "to scatter" means.

Consider the house of Israel, when they were scattered are they all in Jerusalem (the land of their inheritance)? Or are they scattared all over the old world?

IOW Missouri is never identifed as a BoM land.

[rodheadlee]

I was born on the island of japan lived on Guam and served my Mission in the Marshall Islands. I have spoke with many islanders many view the continent of North America as an Island. My Samoan and Tongan companions both made statements to "when I visit your island" (they knew I lived in Utah at the time). I think when the word island comes up or seas or great deep, we need to not read it with presentism, but know the terms could be written with one view and read with another. Besides I am pretty sure Mola is an islander himself and I would take his view of what he means as Island more so than BOMG. Big up for Mola

Because of your unique perspective as a sailor, I always look forward to your post. Thanks.

Thanks, my favorite son lives on Guam he is gaijin. The boat is in Samoa and when we return we will set sail for Tonga. I enjoy all of your posts.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Thanks, my favorite son lives on Guam he is gaijin. The boat is in Samoa and when we return we will set sail for Tonga. I enjoy all of your posts.

You have a favorite son?

[Ahab]

Moroni, Mormon, Nephi, and other Book of Mormon prophets appeared to Joseph Smith and taught him. Moroni himself had at least 22 visits with Joseph. In addition to personal visitations, his mind was opened and he received visions of the Nephite civilization. This is recorded in various places.

I ask the question "do we trust these visions", because there seems to be many here that discount his views about the BoM setting and a New York Cumorah as the final battle scene.

Joseph shared with his family some of his experiences. His mother, Lucy Mack Smith, recalled, "From this time forth, Joseph continued to receive instructions from the Lord, and we continued to get the children together every evening for the purpose of listening while he gave us a relation of the same

[shrff]

I would be very interested in reading about this. Are they legit?

Here's how you know they are not legit. If they were, it would be one of the biggest archaeological discoveries in the history of the New World. It would be trumpeted in the leading international scientific journals. Instead, you're likely to find these supposed Mayan writings in Ancient American Magazine.

Alternatively, I suspect that this may be a reference to certain North/Central American icons that tend to pop up both the Maya writing system and various other contexts. A common one is the foliated cross.

From a rock art panel in New Mexico

The Maya logograph EK', which has been deciphered as the planetary body we call Venus.

There is a big difference between common icons cropping up in adjacent representational systems and a Maya text appearing in a Moundbuilder context.

I say again, until one of these objects is found in context and properly documented by a modern archaeologist, we can't assume that any of them are legitimate. You can grasp at straws and talk about conspiracy theories all you want, but this is how archaeology works. Context is everything.

[shrff]

more from the same site:

"As I mentioned before, a burial (adult male) was found in a flexed position associated with numerous metal objects and Comond

[rodheadlee]

You have a favorite son?

Not really, they're all adopted but not on paper. He was the best carpentry student I had though.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Not really, they're all adopted but not on paper. He was the best carpentry student I had though.

Roger, roger.

[BOMG]

I have sailed the Sea of Cortez for 2 years and I can tell you that Baja is no joke, the veil is very thin in this sacred Sea. I don't know where it fits in BoM geography but there have been metal objects found in gravesites dating back to the proper time period as well as drawings on the walls of caves. The Sea of Cortez is unforgiving to those who come unprepared but is a wonder to those who respect her.

That is a defunct approach to associate all ancient/spiritual objects/lands/writings with the ancient/sacred/spiritual writing of the Book of Mormon. Jesus had "other sheep" beyond those in Western New York.

BOMG, I was checking out your website and I see that you propose that the journey across the oceans to the new world ended at the western end of Lake Erie. Do you have a proposed route? As a sailor I'm very sceptical of this proposed landing site.

Lehi and the Mulekites left Lebanon where there was ore and wood for ship building. Spain was known in Biblical times (perhaps further areas), thus they sailed out the Mediterranean Sea and ventured north following the coast line before heading west. This was a common route for mariners.

Niagara falls????

That fulfills the prophecy that at the coming of Jesus the earth/rocks would crack "both above and below" and Niagara Falls was part of that result. Prior to that, yes, the St. Lawrence and the Niagara gorge were navigable.

[BOMG]

For me there seems to be a disconnect.

The original fact is: A New Jerusalem will be built on Book of Mormon lands.

It flies against the current LDS mindset of a New Jerusalem yet to be built in Independence Missouri.

This is something the text never claims. It only says that the New Jerusalem would be built by the gentiles and some of the Jews and some of the scattared people of Jacob's remnant.

The verse cited on our web site regarding the New Jerusalem did refer to Book of Mormon lands. I highlighted that AND substantiate it with a verse from Ether:

22 But if they (Gentiles) will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob (Indians), unto whom I have given

THIS LAND

for their inheritance; (3 Nephi 21)

1 And now I, Moroni, proceed to finish my record concerning the destruction of the people of whom I have been writing. 2 For behold, they rejected all the words of

Ether

; for he truly told them of all things, from the beginning of man; and that after the waters had receded from off the face of

THIS LAND

it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof; 3 And that it was the

place of the New Jerusalem, which should come down out of heaven

, and the holy sanctuary of the Lord. 4 Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake concerning a

New Jerusalem upon

THIS LAND

. <a name="5"> 5 And he spake also concerning the house of Israel, and the Jerusalem from whence Lehi should come

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Knowing Book of Mormon lands is IMPORTANT!

Whereas the government of the United States of America AND its founding documents ARE the government of that New Jerusalem IS obvious to ALL. We know the prophecy was ALREADY fulfilled.

I suggest you change the text on your website to this text. It makes more sense and is a little more to the point. The text I quoted was vague and non specific.

I hope you don't mind the critique.

[Anijen]

BOMG 04 February 2010 - 03:12 PM

That fulfills the prophecy that at the coming of Jesus the earth/rocks would crack "both above and below" and Niagara Falls was part of that result. Prior to that, yes, the St. Lawrence and the Niagara gorge were navigable.

Sorry, I haven't heard that before. I was just there about six months ago and the guides are not teaching that either. Our guide on the "Maid of the Mist" tour said Niagara was formed during the last ice age. I don't think it was navigable at that time by a canoe let alone a ship carrying a large family.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Sorry, I haven't heard that before. I was just there about six months ago and the guides are not teaching that either. Our guide on the "Maid of the Mist" tour said Niagara was formed during the last ice age. I don't think it was navigable at that time by a canoe let alone a ship carrying a large family.

I would need more information than the naked assertions that have been tossed around that the Falls were navigable in BoM times.

[Anijen]

BOMG

Whereas the government of the United States of America AND its founding documents ARE the government of that New Jerusalem IS obvious to ALL. We know the prophecy was ALREADY fulfilled.

Missouri is certainly a land of promise. However, Missouri is not the only land of promise

[livy111us]

Niagara falls????

[Calm]

That fulfills the prophecy that at the coming of Jesus the earth/rocks would crack "both above and below" and Niagara Falls was part of that result. Prior to that, yes, the St. Lawrence and the Niagara gorge were navigable.

And the evidence for this?

[BOMG]

Sorry, I haven't heard that before. I was just there about six months ago and the guides are not teaching that either. Our guide on the "Maid of the Mist" tour said Niagara was formed during the last ice age. I don't think it was navigable at that time by a canoe let alone a ship carrying a large family.

Dates, like archaeology, are subject to new interpretation. The falls were originally dated at 35k years old. Now, only 12k!!

I would need more information than the naked assertions that have been tossed around that the Falls were navigable in BoM times.

The prophecy fits, we wear it.

Missouri is certainly a land of promise. However, Missouri is not the only land of promise

Don't start that. BoM lands had borders, and the promises therein applied only to theirs. If Missouri, Hawaii, Mesoamerica, Africa, have promises, so be it, I don't limit God, but I also respect the prophets and people who prayed for THEIR LANDS in the BoM.

Wasn't it impossible to navigate to the great lakes from the Atlantic Ocean prior to the building of the Erie canal? It wouldn't make much sense to carry your boats in hopes of finding a large body of water.

And the evidence for this?

http://bookofmormongeography.org/book-of-mormon-geography-land-changed

[Hyrum Page]

I was born on the island of japan lived on Guam and served my Mission in the Marshall Islands. I have spoke with many islanders many view the continent of North America as an Island. My Samoan and Tongan companions both made statements to "when I visit your island" (they knew I lived in Utah at the time). I think when the word island comes up or seas or great deep, we need to not read it with presentism, but know the terms could be written with one view and read with another. Besides I am pretty sure Mola is an islander himself and I would take his view of what he means as Island more so than BOMG. Big up for Mola

In my opinion this is one of the more valuable comments on this thread, because it brings in the issue of cultural convention in the description of geography. Too often people want to take Book of Mormon geography as though it translates in a rather straightforward and literal way into our current understanding. If one really treats the Book of Mormon as an ancient text from a lost civilization that is brought to us through the sometimes opaque lens of translation, then a literal, common-sense approach is rendered much less reliable than one might like to assume.

[BOMG]

In my opinion this is one of the more valuable comments on this thread, because it brings in the issue of cultural convention in the description of geography.

That excuse is used by those espousing the indefensible Meso/Malay/Aftrican models.

Too often people want to take Book of Mormon geography as though it translates in a rather straightforward and literal way into our current understanding. If one really treats the Book of Mormon as an ancient text from a lost civilization that is brought to us through the sometimes opaque lens of translation, then a literal, common-sense approach is rendered much less reliable than one might like to assume.

Says who? Do you know who translated the "ancient text" from a "lost civilization" into English?

[Brant Gardner]

Do you know who translated the "ancient text" from a "lost civilization" into English?

Yes.

[BOMG]

Yes.

You think you do. What about Hyrum, who was never there. What say Hyrum?