Joseph's visions of the Nephite Civilization...

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Correct!

Did they border Book of Mormon lands?

No.

Did who boarder BoM lands? The Jaradites?

last I checked that is the BoM lands, as the Jaradites were part of the boM.

[BOMG]

Did who boarder BoM lands? The Jaradites?

last I checked that is the BoM lands, as the Jaradites were part of the boM.

whatever

[Sevenbak]

He was just as fascinated with Mesoamerica if not more as he was the plains of Ohio. I think more because after he viewed John L Stevens book he never once mentioned the mounds again.

1. The Archeological evidence of the Hopewell culture does not meet (ever) the populations that the text of the Book of Mormon requires. Mesoamerica does.

I don't know why it needs to. It wasn't until Helaman that the people even started migrating there in earnest. And we know at the destruction of Christ, the land northward got hit the worst. To expect a huge population northward so far from the Nephite homeland in Mesoamerica is a misunderstanding, imo.

2.They (Hopewell's) did not have domesticated animals or agriculture that the text of the Book of Mormon describes. Mesoamerica does.

You should read the pdf I just enclosed on the Brush Creek Tablet. It speaks of the early settlers finding a , ahem, cement box filled with a large odd variant of wheat, most of which crumbled, but some of which grew producing about 5 lbs of kernels. I sure wish we had more documentation, that would be cool if true.

3. The Hopewell's did not have a written language. Mesoamerica does.

There are mayan type writings that have popped up in some Hopewell mounds, so I don't think you can disconnect the two.

4. The Hopewell's were hunter gatherers the people of the Book of Mormon were not. Mesoamerican were not hunter gatherers during the time of the BoM (or after). I don't think that can be proven for a fact.

5. The Hopewell's did not work with cement (mud isn't cement), Mesoamerica did.

The Book of Mormon doesn't mention concrete, which Mesoamerica had. I'm assuming you are referring to the concrete structure. Cement is not as strong, and doesn't last for 2000 years. The Pearl of Great price mentions the box that housed the plates having cement holding the sides together, yet when exposed to the elements, the box broke and slid down the hill. I don't think we need to be looking cement that can stand the test of time and the elements.

6. The land of the Hopewell's never had deforestation anywhere as the Book of Mormon claims. Mesoamerica did.

I disagree. The Hopewell region has been studied to have had extensive deforestation in about the same time period Moroni claimed the land northward did.

http://abstracts.co.allenpress.com/pweb/esa2000/abstracts/KEN-3-41-19.html

" I examined sediment cores from two small ponds constructed by the Hopewell culture as part of a 51 ha earthworks site in southwestern Ohio, USA (Fort Ancient). The 2000-year pollen record from these sediments shows that the Hopewell people dramatically modified local vegetation and maintained a deforested landscape. Sediment deposition in the ponds began at approximately 70 B.C. and 130 A.D., respectively, during Hopewell occupation of the site. During this period, both sediment cores have extremely low pollen accumulation rates, high sedimentation rates, and low organic matter content, indicating open vegetation structure with few nearby trees and high rates of erosion."

[Mortal Man]

mummification could, like agricultural products and architectural styles, have followed a similar route north as did Moroni on his way to bury the plates in New York.

Actually, it turns out that Moroni didn't bury the plates. He passed them off to some Anasazi's in southern Utah who subsequently took them east to the Mississippi River Valley and then finally to New York. The sealed portion of the plates contains a history of the Cahokians.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

whatever

Is this how you normally comminicate? I am trying to understand were you are comming from as you are being vague. I ask if it was indeed the Jaradites. And gave a responce if it is indeed the Jaradites you are talking about. The best you got is "whatever". Really?

Please show me were my comments are not factual or accurate.

Saying "whatever" doesn't really further the discussion. As I see this, all you have done is string the peas.

[BOMG]

Is this how you normally comminicate? I am trying to understand were you are comming from as you are being vague. I ask if it was indeed the Jaradites. And gave a responce if it is indeed the Jaradites you are talking about...Please show me were my comments are not factual or accurate.

Innocent mistake. We were discussing the bodies of water that surrounded BoM lands and what they were called when you asked a question about Jaredites. You may have confused your posting with another thread on the Jaredites. Care to add to the discussion?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Care to add to the discussion?

I take it that you think I have not done that.

Here is the break down

Here is what you said and I responded

A word of caution on the logging. We are not informed where they went for timber. To assume it was to the Land Southward is a mistake. Without knowing the lay of the land, it may have been easier for them to go east or west rather than south.

Mesotheorists are helpless to explain why neither the Sea West or Sea East are never referred to as the "Great Sea" "Great Water" "Irreantum" "Many Waters" "Deep" and "Great Deep" that they crossed. In other words, neither the Atlantic or the Pacific oceans bordered Book of Mormon lands. Therefore, they could have traveled east or west beyond the Sea West and East to other lands for timber.

-------------

Also, according to Alma 22:31-32 we do know how wide the Land of Desolation was.

I have a small comment to make. WE don't really even know what oceans "the great deep" or "Irreantum" refer to. Do they refer to just the pacific ocean? Or is it any ocean? The text never says.

A some what strong case can be made that Irreantum refers to the pacific ocean.

To wich you responded with

Correct!

Did they border Book of Mormon lands?

No.

Then I said,

Did who boarder BoM lands? The Jaradites?

last I checked that is the BoM lands, as the Jaradites were part of the boM.

And you responded with "whatever". I didn't really bring up the Jaradites. You did, or at least I am trying to get clarification on that.

To the point, I have no idea what your reasoning is by asking "Do they boarder BoM lands".

[Sevenbak]

He was just as fascinated with Mesoamerica if not more as he was the plains of Ohio. I think more because after he viewed John L Stevens book he never once mentioned the mounds again.

1. The Archeological evidence of the Hopewell culture does not meet (ever) the populations that the text of the Book of Mormon requires. Mesoamerica does.

I forgot to add here about population. Mormon was carried into the land southward (Zarahemla) by his father at age 11. He makes specific references to how much more populated with both people and buildings of every kind, compared to his own homeland, which is easily assumed to be the land Northward. Why we should be looking for large population structures in the land northward is beyond me.

[BOMG]

I didn't really bring up the Jaradites. You did, or at least I am trying to get clarification on that.

Really?? Enlighten me, where did I use the word Jaredites, or any "ite" for that matter?

To the point, I have no idea what your reasoning is by asking "Do they boarder BoM lands".

The point, swim in another pond and stop derailing threads.

[Sevenbak]

Perhaps his death had something to do with that. 1841-1844 was not much time but in that amount of time there were certainly plenty of talk about Mesoamerica.

His statements about Mesoamerica and the Kentucky mummies both being of BoM origin were both given within months of each other. He didn't evolve his teachings, but rather added upon existing knowledge.

Line upon line.

[Sevenbak]

Then your definition of hearsay is different than mine. CFR on any quote from Joseph where he mentions the name Zelph. There is none They are from other people hence hearsay...

Sevenbak I believe in the Zelph incident, but I also believe it has been watered down and the journal histories were combined to make one entry for the History of the Church which BTW concerning this matter was also not written by Joseph.

The same manual says the church has no official stance on the geography. It is certainly not declaring it official doctrine because we know the church has none regarding any geography of the book of Mormon other than Cumorah (Palmyra) is where Moroni deposited the plates and where Joseph retrieved them. If you have any official statement from the church saying different I would be very interested, if not it is left as speculation and opinion only. Ask yourself, if Zelph died at the final battle why is his body in a mound in Ohio?

CFR Joseph mentioned or is this hearsay again other people mentioning that Joseph mentioned. Please cite your source for this.

Joseph doesn't mention Zelph by name, but to say he didn't speak of the incident, when all around him were also recording it in their own journals is just asking for trouble.

If you don't think Joseph substantiated all the other Zelph accounts in his own letter, how do you define what he said to Emma? What is he referring to if not to this incident?

"The whole of our journey, in the midst of so large a company of social honest and sincere men, wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionally the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls & their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity, and gazing upon a country the fertility, the splendour and the goodness so indescribable, all serves to pass away time unnoticed. (Dean C. Jessee, The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1984), 324; emphasis added)

I too think it's been "watered down" over the years, which is why I frequently get aggrivated here on MADB.

The same manual that spells out the Zelph incident also spells out specifically that New York was the final battle scene, so whatever generic geography disclaimers it might have are in the overall sense, not these specific instances.

[Sevenbak]

It is not that I trust brother Sperry over other sources. He quotes many sources himself of past leaders and current scholars to support his ideas. I feel his argument is sound and strong and does not conflict with any church doctrine or the text of the Book of Mormon. Still it is his thoughts on the matter which is an educated opinion, one in which I agree and you do not, no harm or foul.

No offense taken, we have been bantering this for too long to be offended. I have come to relate to you as a friend and enjoy the debate.

There are many wise men both in leadership positions and scholarly positions that also have educated opinions, that are at odds with the modern theory. Likewise, no harm no foul.

I also very much relate to you as a friend and enjoy the debate!!

[Sevenbak]

Actually, we have better information about this land than we do most locations in the Book of Mormon. The specifics in Helaman lay out at least five specific requirements. It has to be north of Nephite lands (not in Nephite lands). It has to have many waters. It has to be devoid of trees needed to support a large population, therefore the people built buildings of cement. All of this must occur between AD 100-400.

The cement buildings is an important archaeological consideration, because that means that we need a place where they are building with some solid but pliable material. One might make the argument that it was adobe, but that won't survive the seasons in the northeast or along the Mississippi (there is a reason that it is used in the desert Southwest).

The Mesoamerican location does fit this particular requirement, but I am unaware of any way to fit it into the Hopewellian interaction sphere or the northeast. By the time you start reaching places with out trees in Canada, you are also reaching places that don't have many people. There is no indication that there were ever populations large enough to create a deforestation that would lead to an alternate building source, let alone no indication that the source was there.

Because Mormon was very specific about this location, it was an important geographical marker for him. I can't imagine any geography fitting the text unless it meets Mormon's criteria.

Could be adobe, but I doubt it. Moroni wouldn't have used adobe to seal the box that housed the plates, he used cement. Cement that didn't withstand the elements when finally exposed to them. My driveway is made out of concrete, much more lasting than mere cement, and yet it is peeling up and disintegrating.

I don't know why we think they had durable portland type cement anyway. In a land devoid of trees, they would have needed fuel to burn the limestone to make durable cement. I think the definition could mean something we just don't consider.

JMHO

[BOMG]

I forgot to add here about population. Mormon was carried into the land southward (Zarahemla) by his father at age 11. He makes specific references to how much MORE populated with both people and buildings of every kind, COMPARED TO his own homeland, which is easily assumed to be the land Northward. Why we should be looking for large population structures in the land northward is beyond me.

If you were referring to Mormon 1:6-7, that's not what it said. Please clarify the "more" and "compared to" statements, thanks!

[Sevenbak]

Widtsoe is writing at a time (1950 for the original article) where there was quite an interest in Book of Mormon geography, but before the LGT was well defined and certainly before it gained much traction.

I think his conclusion is also important:

The assertions that Book of Mormon locations are known because of prophecy to Joseph Smith creates the problem of all of the prophets and apostles after his time being unaware of such an important revelatory confirmation of geography. How is it that generations of prophets, seers, and revelators could have missed something on which Joseph was supposed to have not only been adamant, but informed by revelation?

If Joseph had received geography by revelation, how could Elder Widtsoe have been so unaware of such an important revelation?

He was aware as were all the others who spoke about it. Even Elder Widtsoe uses "probably" here, it's his obvious opinion 100 years after the fact.

[Sevenbak]

A word of caution on the logging. We are not informed where they went for timber. To assume it was to the Land Southward is a mistake. Without knowing the lay of the land, it may have been easier for them to go east or west rather than south.

-------------

Also, according to Alma 22:31-32 we do know how wide the Land of Desolation was.

Correct, however since they migrated from the south, and shipped to the north, it makes sense that they shipped from the south to the north. They could also have shipped timber from anywhere they had it, it's not worth arguing a point, to me anyway.

[BOMG]

5. The Hopewell's did not work with cement (mud isn't cement), Mesoamerica did.

The Book of Mormon doesn't mention concrete, which Mesoamerica had. I'm assuming you are referring to the concrete structure. Cement is not as strong, and doesn't last for 2000 years. The Pearl of Great price mentions the box that housed the plates having cement holding the sides together, yet when exposed to the elements, the box broke and slid down the hill. I don't think we need to be looking cement that can stand the test of time and the elements.

Where did it say the box broke apart? I read it stayed together and as a whole slide down the hill.

Could be adobe, but I doubt it. Moroni wouldn't have used adobe to seal the box that housed the plates, he used cement.

Perhaps, but it was not exposed to the elements. Had it been, even modern day cement would not have held that long.

[BOMG]

Correct, however since they migrated from the south, and shipped to the north, it makes sense that they shipped from the south to the north. They could also have shipped timber from anywhere they had it, it's not worth arguing a point, to me anyway.

It's worth discussing if you assume the River Sidon flows into the Land Northward, and/or was used for logging purposes. How did you envision the transport taking place? From where to where on what water ways? Just curious.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Really?? Enlighten me, where did I use the word Jaredites, or any "ite" for that matter?

The point, swim in another pond and stop derailing threads.

Dude, you have massive issues that have nothing to do with me. You are the one that brought up " Do they boarder BoM lands"

Who is the they?

All I did was think that maybe you were talking about the Jaradites. I have no idea who the, they, is.

I hope I have made it more clear to what I am getting at.

[BOMG]

Dude, you have massive issues that have nothing to do with me. You are the one that brought up " Do they boarder BoM lands"

Who is the they?

All I did was think that maybe you were talking about the Jaradites. I have no idea who the, they, is.

I hope I have made it more clear to what I am getting at.

Was the subject matter the Jaredites? No. Why would you ask that? Ship off.

[Sevenbak]

Ethan Smith filed his copyright application for View of the Hebrews on June 11, 1823. His book informed residents of Vermont and New York concerning the aboriginal inhabitants of this country, showed who they were and from whence they came, and sketched their origin, progress, civilization, laws, governments and final destruction by their savage brethren.

I'll take "Solomon Spaulding beats up Ethan Smith" for $100, Bob.

[Sevenbak]

Is this how you normally comminicate? I am trying to understand were you are comming from as you are being vague. I ask if it was indeed the Jaradites. And gave a responce if it is indeed the Jaradites you are talking about. The best you got is "whatever". Really?

Please show me were my comments are not factual or accurate.

Saying "whatever" doesn't really further the discussion. As I see this, all you have done is string the peas.

Go easy on him, perhaps the Whitmer College is more abrupt in it's communication approach than BYU?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Was the subject matter the Jaredites? No. Why would you ask that? Ship off.

So then answer the question. Who is the they? I assume you are trying to make a point in asking that question. You brought up the "they" remember?

Why are you trying to be so obtuse here?

You may have been refering to the "they" as the oceans.

I have to ask that if the oceans don't boarder the BoM lands, how can you make that claim if the text never says one way or the other? It holds no water. No pun intended.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Go easy on him, perhaps the Whitmer College is more abrupt in it's communication approach than BYU?

I am trying to go easy but he has a massive chip on his shoulder about something.

I am merely trying to get clarification about a point that he made to an unkown "they" that he brought up when he said " Do they board BoM lands".

Then he accuses me of derailing the thread.

Who is the "they". He still wont answer me.

[Sevenbak]

If you were referring to Mormon 1:6-7, that's not what it said. Please clarify the "more" and "compared to" statements, thanks!

Right.

6 And it came to pass that I, being *eleven years old, was carried by my father into the land southward, even to the land of Zarahemla.

7 The whole face of the land had become covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous almost, as it were the sand of the sea.

Why would Mormon even mention this if his own land was the same in population as Zarahemla was. It was obviously worth noting.

Also, Ammaron told Mormon of the records before he went south. It was much later as they were fleeing through the north countries that Mormon collects all of the records hidden by Ammaron. If the land northward was not the boyhood home of Mormon, then I don't know what is.