Joseph's visions of the Nephite Civilization...

[Anijen]

I am so glad and relieved that your boy is doing better. That is scary.

Incredibly tacky of me, I apologize for doing this after my previous post. I should have asked about it first and left the trivial geography stuff as a way distant second....

[ebeddoulos]

ebeddoulos, Elder Peterson isn't the one man, he's one of many who have said essentially the same thing. If it was just his opinion or teaching alone, I wouldn't put as much credence into it as I do.

Joseph Fielding Smith used even harsher words than his in describing the new LGT:

"In the light of revelation it is absurd for anyone to maintain that the Nephites and Lamanites did not possess this northern land."

http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/Cumorah-JFeS-DofS3.pdf

Further, nothing that Joseph Smith said about Mesoamerica changes a thing. He and many others believed the Nephite homeland to be in Mesoamerica. So do I. That is not the point. The point is that the land northward was also populated by the Nephite nation, and the statements and teachings are consistent.

Did you know that within months of Joseph's statements about Zarehemla being in Central America, he also spoke of mummies that were found in Kentucky as being of BoM origin?

http://www.centerplace.org/history/ts/v3n13.htm

"Had Mr. Ash in his researches consulted the Book of Mormon his problem would have been solved, and he would have found no difficulty in accounting for the mummies being found in the above mentioned case. The Book of Mormon gives an account of a number of the descendants of Israel coming to this continent; and it is well known that the art of embalming was known among the Hebrews, as well as among the Egyptians, although perhaps not so generally among the former, as among the latter people; and their method of embalming also might be different from that of the Egyptians.

(page 781)"

This thread is about Joseph being consistent with his visionary gifts. None of his statements about Mesoamerica detract from his teachings about this north country as being part of it. He had visions of this land, on numerous occasions. I believe he was a prophet to that end, with all that that entails.

There is nothing in your rebuttal that a.) is not already known, b.) that cannot be explained without abandoning the LGT. For example, the Central American

[jadams_4242]

Moroni, Mormon, Nephi, and other Book of Mormon prophets appeared to Joseph Smith and taught him. Moroni himself had at least 22 visits with Joseph. In addition to personal visitations, his mind was opened and he received visions of the Nephite civilization. This is recorded in various places.

I ask the question "do we trust these visions", because there seems to be many here that discount his views about the BoM setting and a New York Cumorah as the final battle scene.

Joseph shared with his family some of his experiences. His mother, Lucy Mack Smith, recalled, "From this time forth, Joseph continued to receive instructions from the Lord, and we continued to get the children together every evening for the purpose of listening while he gave us a relation of the same

[Sevenbak]

See that is what I don't get. Please explain to me in detail how you can agree with the references I provided but not that the narrow neck of land was near Cumorah? Please cite as much scripture and quotes you can to clarify your reason that the narrow neck of land is not near Cumorah (Palmyra).

Hi Anijen, none of your references claim the narrow neck of land was anywhere near the land of Cumorah. It's always been my position that Cumorah was far Northward from the Nephite homeland, and that Mormon fled there with his people.

[Sevenbak]

]

The original problem was that the hemispheric geography conflicted with the text of the BOM itself. One or the other had to give.

I disagree. The text can be interpreted a variety of ways, thus there are several camps in this issue. This is exactly why Joseph Fielding Smith wrote his rebut in Doctrines of Salvation. It would seem he was a prophet after all, as he warns that the LGT folks somehow need the modern theory to believe the text. Not so!

"This modernistic theory of necessity, in order to be consistent, must place the waters of Ripliancum and the Hill Cumorah some place within the restricted territory of Central America, notwithstanding the teachings of the Church to the contrary for upwards of 100 years.

Because of this theory some members of the Church have become confused and greatly disturbed in their faith in the Book of Mormon. It is for this reason that evidence is here presented to show that it is not only possible that these places could be located as the Church has held during the past century, but that in very deed such is the case."

http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/Cumorah-JFeS-DofS3.pdf

[Sevenbak]

There is nothing in your rebuttal that a.) is not already known, b.) that cannot be explained without abandoning the LGT. For example, the Central American

[Sevenbak]

I am so glad and relieved that your boy is doing better. That is scary.

Incredibly tacky of me, I apologize for doing this after my previous post. I should have asked about it first and left the trivial geography stuff as a way distant second....

No worries friend!

It certainly does put all this stuff on a trivial plain!

[Woody]

I hesitate to add this statement by Elder Mark E. Peterson on the subject, because it's a tad harsh, but his message abrupt. It's on point, so here goes. Don't flame me. [+little animated devil, deleted]

[Woody]

Joseph shared with his family some of his experiences. His mother, Lucy Mack Smith, recalled, "From this time forth, Joseph continued to receive instructions from the Lord, and we continued to get the children together every evening for the purpose of listening while he gave us a relation of the same

[Sevenbak]

Note the word I made bold, italic, and underlined above. What does that word mean to you? To me it suggests he's saying this is what he believes, this is his opinion, not 'this is what has been revealed and published over the First Presidency's signatures.'

I agree with Peterson's statement about Joseph's integrity. How do I apply it to... um, anything here?

Wood

I'm not sure you are using the word believe in the context you intend. I'm also noting you didn't bold his other use of "believe", even though it's in the same paragraph he uttered. Here it is again, not that I wanted to quote him again, but since you're intent on defining "believe", at least define them all. You're welcome to throw out his "beliefs", I'm not, as they are entirely consistent.

"I do not believe we can be good Latter-day Saints and question the integrity of Joseph Smith.

[Sevenbak]

Great! So Joseph entertained his family with descriptions. What was the content of those descriptions?

This is the disconnect I see in your citation of this evidence.

Wood

There is no disconnect. If you continue to read my posts, you will see that Joseph said pretty much the same thing in the Wentworth Letter as his mother did. Are we willing to also throw out the Articles of Faith because we don't agree with the Wentworth Letter?

He clearly says in the WL that it was revelation that showed him the ancient occupants of this country.

"I was also informed concerning the aboriginal inhabitants of this country and shown who they were, and from whence they came; a brief sketch of their origin, progress, civilization, laws, governments, of their righteousness and iniquity, and the blessings of God being finally withdrawn from them as a people, was made known unto me; I was also told where were deposited some plates on which were engraven an abridgment of the records of the ancient Prophets that had existed on this continent. The angel appeared to me three times the same night and unfolded the same things. After having received many visits from the angels of God unfolding the majesty and glory of the events that should transpire in the last days, on the morning of the 22nd of September, A.D. 1827, the angel of the Lord delivered the records into my hands."

[Woody]

The second "believe" is a stronger statement, it approaches sarcasm, ie. certainty. Context is what tells me this.

Wood

[Woody]

There is no disconnect. If you continue to read my posts, you will see that Joseph said pretty much the same thing in the Wentworth Letter as his mother did. Are we willing to also throw out the Articles of Faith because we don't agree with the Wentworth Letter?

He clearly says in the WL that it was revelation that showed him the ancient occupants of this country.

"I was also informed concerning the aboriginal inhabitants of this country and shown who they were, and from whence they came; a brief sketch of their origin, progress, civilization, laws, governments, of their righteousness and iniquity, and the blessings of God being finally withdrawn from them as a people, was made known unto me; I was also told where were deposited some plates on which were engraven an abridgment of the records of the ancient Prophets that had existed on this continent. The angel appeared to me three times the same night and unfolded the same things. After having received many visits from the angels of God unfolding the majesty and glory of the events that should transpire in the last days, on the morning of the 22nd of September, A.D. 1827, the angel of the Lord delivered the records into my hands."

I don't see anything about where's Cumorah in this statement either, just like Lucy's account of his descriptions. Is it really from these two quotations that you get Joseph weighing in on where Cumorah was?

Wood

[Anijen]

Omer, a Jaredite King

Most of the Book of Mormon evidence will be taken from the books of Ether, Mormon, Mosiah, and Omni. The first piece of evidence concerns Omer, a righteous Jaredite king, who was warned by the Lord to flee out of his land in order to save his life. In the words of Moroni:

And the Lord warned Omer in a dream that he should depart out of the land; wherefore Omer departed out of the land with his family, and traveled many days, and came over and passed by the hill of Shim, and came over by the place where the Nephites were destroyed, and from thence eastward, and came to a place which was called Ablom, by the seashore. (Ether 9:3)

We are concerned more especially with the words in italics. Notice that Omer and his party passed by the hill Shim, a place recognized by all Book of Mormon students as being the hill in the land Antum where Ammoron hid the sacred records of his people (Mormon 1:3; 4:23). No one would question the fact that this hill and Antum were in turn in the larger territory of Desolation (see Mormon 4:19; cf. 4:23), somewhere in or about Middle America.

Next we observe (notice the casual language employed) that Omer came "by the place where the Nephites were destroyed." Moroni must certainly mean the place of the last destruction of his people. If the Cumorah in New York was the place, then Omer and family traveled at least 3,000 miles away from the hill Shim to reach it. In view of the casual language employed, does such a long journey seem reasonable? If the party traveled an average of twenty miles per day by primitive means for "many days," let's say an improbable sixty, they would cover only 1,200 miles. How very improbable it is that Omer traversed the distance to Cumorah in New York is reinforced by Ether 9:9 in which a certain Nimrah "gathered together a small number of men, and fled out of the land from which Omer had fled, and came over and dwelt with Omer." Notice that Nimrah knew where to find Omer and "came over" to him. Not the slightest hint is given that would lead us to believe a three-thousand-mile journey was attempted. It may reasonably be assumed that "Ablom, by the seashore," where Omer temporarily dwelt, was on the Gulf of Mexico side, not too far from "the place where the Nephites were destroyed" (Ether 9:3).

Omer was restored eventually to his kingdom (Ether 9:13), but not the slightest hint is given that he had to retrace his steps a great distance to get to it. So if we are correct in presuming that in Ether 9:3 Moroni was referring to the place of his people's final destruction, the evidence thus far would seem to favor the view that it was somewhere in Middle America. Sidney B. Sperry

No matter to what land Omer went in exile, the fact is clear that he returned to, and his successors dwelt in, the traditional southern home of the Jaredites. This is made very clear by such statements as "their flocks began to flee before the poisonous serpents, towards the land southward, which was called by the Nephites Zarahemla" (Ether 9:31), and "they built a great city by the narrow neck of land, by the place where the sea divides the land" (Ether 10:20).Now let us examine the evidence presented by Moroni relative to the territory in which the last great Jaredite battles took place.6 In Ether 14:5

[Anijen]

Final Evidence

Now let us gather up some final evidence having a bearing on the problem. It will be remembered that when King Limhi, whose people were living in the early lands of their fathers' first inheritance (Lehi-Nephi, Shilom; see Mosiah 7:21; 9:1, 6), wanted to get them back to the land of Zarahemla, he sent out forty-three men to search for it (Mosiah 8:7). What happened?

They were lost in the wilderness for the space of many days, yet they were diligent, and found not the land of Zarahemla but returned to this land, having traveled in a land among many waters, having discovered a land which was covered with bones of men, and of beasts, and was also covered with ruins of buildings of every kind, having discovered a land which had been peopled with a people who were as numerous as the hosts of Israel.

And for a testimony that the things that they had said are true they have brought twenty-four plates which are filled with engravings, and they are of pure gold.

And behold, also, they have brought breastplates, which are large, and they are of brass and of copper, and are perfectly sound. And again, they have brought swords, the hilts thereof have perished, and the blades thereof were cankered with rust. (Mosiah 8:8

[Cold Steel]

Joseph was a contemporary of all these myriad of people, besides himself, that spoke of the Cumorah in New York as being the final battle scene. He was obviously fine with their statements, from asking Oliver to write his accounts as an official history, or as editor of the Times and Seasons, etc.

I suppose the best way to resolve this is to ask how Cumorah could be in New York, yet the narrow neck of land be in Mesoamerica? We know something of the proximity of the land of Desolation with the narrow neck, and this is the aspect of the argument that has led to the debate at hand. It's not that there are two Cumorahs; it's that there's only one, and it's in Mesoamerica. If Desolation is just north of the narrow neck, and if the narrow neck is indeed the Isthmus of Tehuantepec, then how could the battles of great destruction be in New York?

John E. Clark notes: "The relative location of the hill Cumorah is most tenuous, since travel time from Bountiful, or the narrow neck, to Cumorah is nowhere specified. Cumorah was near the east sea in the land northward, and the limited evidence suggests that it was probably not many days' travel from the narrow neck of land (Mosiah 8:8; Ether 9:3). It is also probable that the portion of the land northward occupied by the Jaredites was smaller than the Nephite-Lamanite land southward." (Source)

Clark also explained the various views expressed in the church, none of which is formally adopted by the church:

In early Church history, the most common opinion among members and Church leaders was that Book of Mormon lands encompassed all of North and South America, although at least one more limited alternative view was also held for a time by some. The official position of the Church is that the events narrated in the Book of Mormon occurred somewhere in the Americas, but that the specific location has not been revealed. This position applies both to internal geographies and to external correlations. No internal geography has yet been proposed or approved by the Church, and none of the internal or external geographies proposed by individual members (including that proposed above) has received approval. Efforts in that direction by members are neither encouraged nor discouraged. In the words of John A. Widtsoe, an apostle, "All such studies are legitimate, but the conclusions drawn from them, though they may be correct, must at the best be held as intelligent conjectures" (Vol. 3, p. 93).

Three statements sometimes attributed to the Prophet Joseph Smith are often cited as evidence of an official Church position. An 1836 statement asserts that "Lehi and his company

[Hyrum Page]

Is there any evidence that Joseph had a revelatory experience that connected a place or artifact in ancient Mesoamerica with those things depicted in the Book of Mormon?

[Cold Steel]

No.

[Hyrum Page]

No.

How does this weigh against those few instances where there is some evidence that he identified, by revelation, certain places or artifacts in North America (north of Mexico) with the Book of Mormon civilizations?

[Anijen]

How does this weigh against those few instances where there is some evidence that he identified, by revelation, certain places or artifacts in North America (north of Mexico) with the Book of Mormon civilizations?

There is no direct quote from Joseph on this matter. It is written in the journals of others concerning any artifact. I do believe in them, for the reason that Joseph wrote Emma and spoke of the plains of the Nephites. However this does not mean it was an event in the Book of Mormon. Let us take the account of Zelph.

The quotes (all hearsay, not Joseph himself)say Zelph was a Lamanite albeit a righteous one. IMO Zelph migrated North, or his ancestors did before him.

I believe there was quite a bit of trade going on between the peoples in Mesoamerica with both the people to the North and South. In the future I think we will start to see more and more proof of this, there is already some. The Mayans traded with those north of them we can see the proof of this as we see the three main groups of domesticated food (corn, squash and beans) eventually reach all the way to the Atlantic, this occured after the events of the Book of Mormon by hundreds of years. I am not saying the Mayans went that far just the food did via through many hands of the traders. The Mississippi river probably was the main reason that makes this possible.

[Hyrum Page]

There is no direct quote from Joseph on this matter. It is written in the journals of others concerning any artifact. I do believe in them, for the reason that Joseph wrote Emma and spoke of the plains of the Nephites. However this does not mean it was an event in the Book of Mormon. Let us take the account of Zelph.

The quotes (all hearsay, not Joseph himself)say Zelph was a Lamanite albeit a righteous one. IMO Zelph migrated North, or his ancestors did before him.

I believe there was quite a bit of trade going on between the peoples in Mesoamerica with both the people to the North and South. In the future I think we will start to see more and more proof of this, there is already some. The Mayans traded with those north of them we can see the proof of this as we see the three main groups of domesticated food (corn, squash and beans) eventually reach all the way to the Atlantic, this occured after the events of the Book of Mormon by hundreds of years. I am not saying the Mayans went that far just the food did via through many hands of the traders. The Mississippi river probably was the main reason that makes this possible.

Sure, that is your explanation to fit this evidence into your theory. All I was asking was where the evidence for revelation connects somehow with geography and artifacts. It appears that what evidence we do have that points toward revelations connects North American sites or artifacts with Book of Mormon civilizations. We do not, at least as far as I know, have similar evidence pointing toward revelations concerning geography or artifacts of Mesoamerica being connected with Book of Mormon civilizations. I am fine with however you want to make that work for your point of view.

[dblagent007]

I disagree. The text can be interpreted a variety of ways, thus there are several camps in this issue. This is exactly why Joseph Fielding Smith wrote his rebut in Doctrines of Salvation. It would seem he was a prophet after all, as he warns that the LGT folks somehow need the modern theory to believe the text. Not so!

"This modernistic theory of necessity, in order to be consistent, must place the waters of Ripliancum and the Hill Cumorah some place within the restricted territory of Central America, notwithstanding the teachings of the Church to the contrary for upwards of 100 years.

Because of this theory some members of the Church have become confused and greatly disturbed in their faith in the Book of Mormon. It is for this reason that evidence is here presented to show that it is not only possible that these places could be located as the Church has held during the past century, but that in very deed such is the case."

http://emp.byui.edu/...-JFeS-DofS3.pdf

Okay, maybe you don't agree with the original reason for dropping the hemispheric theory, but you really don't believe in the hemispheric theory now, do you? The DNA evidence pretty much slammed that door shut. The Church even recognized this when they changed the introduction to the BOM by adding the word "among" to the following statement: "This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are among the ancestors of the American Indians.

If you still believe in the hemispheric theory of the BOM, then you really are a guy that will follow the prophets no matter what.

[rodheadlee]

LHGT, limited hemispherical geographical theory. Using nothagoths theory of Nephite migration from the Yucatan to the US as well as Europe, there probably were Nephites and Lamanites spread throughout North and South America mingled with those already here. Kinda like combining Sevenbak, Cold Steel, Nothagoth7 into one.

[Nofear]

Sure, that is your explanation to fit this evidence into your theory. All I was asking was where the evidence for revelation connects somehow with geography and artifacts. It appears that what evidence we do have that points toward revelations connects North American sites or artifacts with Book of Mormon civilizations.

The only North American leaning evidence is Zelph and the burial location of the Golden Plates.

We do not, at least as far as I know, have similar evidence pointing toward revelations concerning geography or artifacts of Mesoamerica being connected with Book of Mormon civilizations. I am fine with however you want to make that work for your point of view.

The Mesoamerican evidence we have (in no particular order) is Joseph's endorsement of Stephens travel memoir, Times and Seasons articles, anthropological and archeological compatibility, textual compatibility.

Any suggestion that it is preferential to take the most straight-forward and naive interpretation of the North American leaning evidence in defiance of all the Mesoamerican leaning evidence doesn't make much sense to me at all. Quite the contrary, we try to find an interpretation that fits all the available, relevant data (albeit deciding what is relevant is often tricky and subject to bias).

[Anijen]

Sure, that is your explanation to fit this evidence into your theory. All I was asking was where the evidence for revelation connects somehow with geography and artifacts. It appears that what evidence we do have that points toward revelations connects North American sites or artifacts with Book of Mormon civilizations. We do not, at least as far as I know, have similar evidence pointing toward revelations concerning geography or artifacts of Mesoamerica being connected with Book of Mormon civilizations. I am fine with however you want to make that work for your point of view.

Yes it is a theory. As far as I know there is only one revelation that the church accepts which connects geography with any artifact, and that would be where the gold plates were received by Joesph Smith. If you have other revelations from the Prophet I would love to read them and if you have them please cite your source. I believe all else were opinion, speculation, hearsay, traditional though that has lingered to this day.