Joseph's visions of the Nephite Civilization...

[Anijen]

Joseph certainly made known his feelings on the matter of the Zarahemla setting in Mesoamerica, but I would hardly say he was "most fascinated" with that over his many statements of N. America. His statements about the latter were more numerous than the former. I for one don't feel the need to pit one against the other. I believe both were truths.

He was just as fascinated with Mesoamerica if not more as he was the plains of Ohio. I think more because after he viewed John L Stevens book he never once mentioned the mounds again.

1. The Archeological evidence of the Hopewell culture does not meet (ever) the populations that the text of the Book of Mormon requires. Mesoamerica does.

2.They (Hopewell's) did not have domesticated animals or agriculture that the text of the Book of Mormon describes. Mesoamerica does.

3. The Hopewell's did not have a written language. Mesoamerica does.

4. The Hopewell's were hunter gatherers the people of the Book of Mormon were not. Mesoamerican were not hunter gatherers during the time of the BoM (or after).

5. The Hopewell's did not work with cement (mud isn't cement), Mesoamerica did.

6. The land of the Hopewell's never had deforestation anywhere as the Book of Mormon claims. Mesoamerica did.

[Anijen]

sevenbak His statements about the latter were more numerous than the former

Perhaps his death had something to do with that. 1841-1844 was not much time but in that amount of time there were certainly plenty of talk about Mesoamerica.

[Anijen]

Sevenbak 02 February 2010 - 08:27 PM

Are you referring to the Zelph incident? That can't be classified as hearsay.

Then your definition of hearsay is different than mine. CFR on any quote from Joseph where he mentions the name Zelph. There is none They are from other people hence hearsay...

Sevenbak I believe in the Zelph incident, but I also believe it has been watered down and the journal histories were combined to make one entry for the History of the Church which BTW concerning this matter was also not written by Joseph.

So many of the trusted men with Joseph, including the official historian all wrote down his words.

Some many years after the fact and had to be relied on the memory of others.

Certainly LDS institute manual still teaches that the Zelph incident happened during the final war, and not after.

The same manual says the church has no official stance on the geography. It is certainly not declaring it official doctrine because we know the church has none regarding any geography of the book of Mormon other than Cumorah (Palmyra) is where Moroni deposited the plates and where Joseph retrieved them. If you have any official statement from the church saying different I would be very interested, if not it is left as speculation and opinion only. Ask yourself, if Zelph died at the final battle why is his body in a mound in Ohio?

And, the Zelph mound incident is not isolated either. Joseph also mentioned on two different occasions other areas of the Hopewell territory as being part of the Nephite civilization.

CFR Joseph mentioned or is this hearsay again other people mentioning that Joseph mentioned. Please cite your source for this.

[BOMG]

BOMG, while I agree with some of your reasoning about Joseph's and his contemporaries statements and beliefs about locations, I'm struggling with your view of accepting Joseph's visions as truth (even though I do). Your website makes it pretty clear you follow David Whitmer's restoration movement, and thus believe Joseph was a fallen prophet. So I guess my question is, at what point do you NOT accept Joseph's revelations on the matter?

Your comment is valid.

If Western New York is core Book of Mormon land how do I reconcile the statement about Zelph, assuming I believe it was true? Consider these facts:

1. Before they "gathered" at Cumorah, they had already gathered together in the Land Northward:

But it came to pass that

whatsoever lands we had passed by and the inhabitants thereof were

NOT GATHERED

in

WERE DESTROYED

by the Lamanites and their towns and villages and cities were burned with fire and thus

three hundred and seventy and nine

years passed away. (Mormon 5:5)

2. It took FOUR YEARS to gather ALL THEIR PEOPLE to Cumorah:

5 And *when

three hundred and eighty and four years

had passed away we had

gathered in

all the remainder of our people

unto the land of Cumorah.

6 And it came to pass that when we had

gathered in all our people in one

to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the

last struggle of my people

and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers which were sacred to fall into the hands of the Lamanites (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni. (Mormon 6)

3. This was the "LAST STRUGGLE."

The atmosphere was one of finality; of believers and non-believers reaping a foreknown result.

4. Why did it take FOUR YEARS to gather "ALL OUR PEOPLE" to Cumorah?

We feel the answer lies with the disappearance of the Hopewell people. At some point, Nephite missionaries had infiltrated the Hopewellian world converting them entirely. Gratitude and knowledge aligned them to the Nephite/Christian cause which polarized all tribes beyond Book of Mormon lands.

What ensued was a battle of epic proportions, to the death of one people or the other, much like will occur at Armageddon.

5. Securing the Records.

Mormon secured only the records "entrusted to him" in the Hill Cumorah. Because it was prophesied they (Nephites) would all be destroyed, neither he nor Moroni risked exposing them (gold plates) to confiscation and destruction by the enemy. Of course they were secured before the final battle, where Joseph could find them. Later Moroni retrieved them, added his writings, and redeposited them.

David Whitmer confirmed that a SECOND DEPOSITORY was in a CAVE in Palmyra.

No doubt Moroni foresaw what would become of the Hill Cumorah after the Book of Mormon came forth, and decided to remove the other writings to a safer place, still in the Palmyra/Cumorah area.

6. Zelph

The knowledge Moroni had of post-war conditions is interesting. There's no way he could have known all who survived, particularly if they were hiding like himself. The escape route was south, which was the route Zelph would have taken to return home. Thus, what Joseph saw could fit the Western New York model.

[BOMG]

1. The Archeological evidence of the Hopewell culture does not meet (ever) the populations that the text of the Book of Mormon requires. Mesoamerica does.

2.They (Hopewell's) did not have domesticated animals or agriculture that the text of the Book of Mormon describes. Mesoamerica does.

3. The Hopewell's did not have a written language. Mesoamerica does.

4. The Hopewell's were hunter gatherers the people of the Book of Mormon were not. Mesoamerican were not hunter gatherers during the time of the BoM (or after).

5. The Hopewell's did not work with cement (mud isn't cement), Mesoamerica did.

6. The land of the Hopewell's never had deforestation anywhere as the Book of Mormon claims. Mesoamerica did.

Knowing the Hopewell culture covered a larger area than Mesoamerica, I don't believe such sweeping statements should be entertained. Particularly #6 after 2k years.

[Anijen]

BOMG 03 February 2010 - 01:04 AM

5. Securing the Records.

Mormon secured only the records "entrusted to him" in the Hill Cumorah.

Mormon hid all the records in the hill Cumorah except for the few plates he gave to Moroni

Of course they were secured before the final battle, where Joseph could find them. Later Moroni retrieved them, added his writings, and redeposited them.

This is speculation on your part. The text does not say this. The text says all the record except the few plates he (Mormon) gave Moroni. There is nothing about Moroni later retrieving them or were Joseph could find them nor of the plates being redeposited.

David Whitmer confirmed that a SECOND DEPOSITORY was in a CAVE in Palmyra.

I have heard this too That DW had a vision of a cave while in New York. I would like to read it again. Could you please give me a source to look this up.

No doubt Moroni foresaw what would become of the Hill Cumorah after the first record came forth, and decided to remove the others to a safer place, still in the Palmyra/Cumorah area.

Again this is opinion and not considered doctrine by the church.

[Anijen]

Knowing the Hopewell culture covered a larger area than Mesoamerica, I don't believe such sweeping statements should be entertained. Particularly #6 after 2k years.

To each his own, believe what you want to believe. However they are not just "sweeping statements" they are archeological facts. I can show evidence of deforestation in Mesoamerica that occurred simultaneously with that in the Book of Mormon. You cannot say the same with the Hopwell culture. This is a basic shrug off common with Great Lake supporters if it doesn't fit they say a lot can happen in two thousand years.

[Anijen]

Still disagree with Brother Sperry. I think there are better sources of trust, no offense.

It is not that I trust brother Sperry over other sources. He quotes many sources himself of past leaders and current scholars to support his ideas. I feel his argument is sound and strong and does not conflict with any church doctrine or the text of the Book of Mormon. Still it is his thoughts on the matter which is an educated opinion, one in which I agree and you do not, no harm or foul.

No offense taken, we have been bantering this for too long to be offended. I have come to relate to you as a friend and enjoy the debate.

[Brant Gardner]

The problem here is that we just don't know how big the land of desolation was. We know it was big enough that they had to use shipping to get wood from the land southward. There are too many unknowns to use the text only in figuring out where everything was.

Actually, we have better information about this land than we do most locations in the Book of Mormon. The specifics in Helaman lay out at least five specific requirements. It has to be north of Nephite lands (not in Nephite lands). It has to have many waters. It has to be devoid of trees needed to support a large population, therefore the people built buildings of cement. All of this must occur between AD 100-400.

The cement buildings is an important archaeological consideration, because that means that we need a place where they are building with some solid but pliable material. One might make the argument that it was adobe, but that won't survive the seasons in the northeast or along the Mississippi (there is a reason that it is used in the desert Southwest).

The Mesoamerican location does fit this particular requirement, but I am unaware of any way to fit it into the Hopewellian interaction sphere or the northeast. By the time you start reaching places with out trees in Canada, you are also reaching places that don't have many people. There is no indication that there were ever populations large enough to create a deforestation that would lead to an alternate building source, let alone no indication that the source was there.

Because Mormon was very specific about this location, it was an important geographical marker for him. I can't imagine any geography fitting the text unless it meets Mormon's criteria.

[Brant Gardner]

Are you referring to the Zelph incident? That can't be classified as hearsay. So many of the trusted men with Joseph, including the official historian all wrote down his words. And the Zelph incident was specifically about the final conflict between the Nephites and Lamanites, so even though it's not about the final battle, it's my understanding it happened prior to Cumorah.

On tyhe journey into northwestern Missouri, led by the Prophet, a scouting party uncovered the skeleton of a large man near the Illinois Riiver. Jospeh Smith said it was the remains of a white Lamanite named Zelph, a leader among this people. This is not of much value in Book of Mormon geographical studies, since Zelph probably dated from a later time when Nephites and Lamanites had been somewhat dispersed and had wandered over the country. John A. Widtsoe, "Is Book of Mormon Geography Known?," in A Book of Mormon Treasury: Significant Articles from the Pages of the Improvement Era (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1959), 127-28.

Widtsoe is writing at a time (1950 for the original article) where there was quite an interest in Book of Mormon geography, but before the LGT was well defined and certainly before it gained much traction.

I think his conclusion is also important:

Out of diligent, prayerful study, we may be led to a better understanding of times and places in the history of the people who move across the pages of the divinely given Book of Mormon (Ibid., 130)

The assertions that Book of Mormon locations are known because of prophecy to Joseph Smith creates the problem of all of the prophets and apostles after his time being unaware of such an important revelatory confirmation of geography. How is it that generations of prophets, seers, and revelators could have missed something on which Joseph was supposed to have not only been adamant, but informed by revelation?

If Joseph had received geography by revelation, how could Elder Widtsoe have been so unaware of such an important revelation?

[Hyrum Page]

If Joseph had received geography by revelation, how could Elder Widtsoe have been so unaware of such an important revelation?

The question is not whether Joseph Smith received any revelation that touched on geography, landscape, and antiquities, but whether that revelation was in any sense systematic and comprehensive (offering an overall outline of BoM geography). Clearly, the revelation he did receive was piecemeal and dealt with individual places and objects. It was not comprehensive. If I were to make your argument for you, I would say that revelations concerning Book of Mormon geography tended to occur when Joseph Smith or Brigham Young were on site. Had either one traveled with the saints in the area of ancient Mesoamerican civilizations, they likely would have received revelations about the Book of Mormon significance of that landscape. Of course, they did neither.

[Brant Gardner]

The question is not whether Joseph Smith received any revelation that touched on geography, landscape, and antiquities, but whether that revelation was in any sense systematic and comprehensive (offering an overall outline of BoM geography).

Actually, I see a much more important issue about revelation. What significance do we give statements from Joseph which were not considered revelation by subsequent prophets and apostles? In the order of the church, who should have the ability to define what is and what is not a revelation?

Obviously, my personal stance is that the Presidency and the Twelve are empowered to define what is revelation for the Church. The aftermath of the Hyrum Page incident (mildly appropriate, no?) is instructive:

3 And thou shalt be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church.

4 And if thou art led at any time by the Comforter to speak or teach, or at all times by the way of commandment unto the church, thou mayest do it.

5 But thou shalt not write by way of commandment, but by wisdom;

6 And thou shalt not command him who is at thy head, and at the head of the church;

7 For I have given him the keys of the mysteries, and the revelations which are sealed, until I shall appoint unto them another in his stead.

(Section 28:3 - 7)

Of course that particular revelation was for Joseph, but I believe it continues to define the relationship we have with the Prophet/Twelve. We don't get to decide what is a revelation, they do.

They seem to be ignorant that the geography of the Book of Mormon was decided by revelation, therefore I really doubt that it was. I think it falls into the realm of verses 4-5 above. That is certainly the way Widtsoe perceived it.

[BOMG]

This is speculation on your part. The text does not say this. The text says all the record except the few plates he (Mormon) gave Moroni. There is nothing about Moroni later retrieving them or were Joseph could find them nor of the plates being redeposited.

They WERE deposited, except a "few." Meaning, a sheet or two, not 40-60 lbs that could easily slow Moroni down in battle and fall into the hands of an enemy. Honestly, what are you drinking?

I can show evidence of deforestation in Mesoamerica ... a lot can happen in two thousand years.

If there is evidence of deforestation then their NOT Book of Mormon lands. They overcame the problem.

It is not that I trust brother Sperry over other sources. He quotes many sources himself of past leaders and current scholars to support his ideas... an educated opinion

I wouldn't support Sperry if my life depended on it. HE began the apologetic distortion of the method of "translation" that people like Brant still haven't come to terms with, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Read for yourself the magus of his "educated" mind:

http://whitmercollege.com/disparaged/35-lds-church/25-sidney-sperry-1964

[BOMG]

The problem here is that we just don't know how big the land of desolation was. We know it was big enough that they had to use shipping to get wood from the land southward.

A word of caution on the logging. We are not informed where they went for timber. To assume it was to the Land Southward is a mistake. Without knowing the lay of the land, it may have been easier for them to go east or west rather than south.

Mesotheorists are helpless to explain why neither the Sea West or Sea East are never referred to as the "Great Sea" "Great Water" "Irreantum" "Many Waters" "Deep" and "Great Deep" that they crossed. In other words, neither the Atlantic or the Pacific oceans bordered Book of Mormon lands. Therefore, they could have traveled east or west beyond the Sea West and East to other lands for timber.

-------------

Also, according to Alma 22:31-32 we do know how wide the Land of Desolation was.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

A word of caution on the logging. We are not informed where they went for timber. To assume it was to the Land Southward is a mistake. Without knowing the lay of the land, it may have been easier for them to go east or west rather than south.

Mesotheorists are helpless to explain why neither the Sea West or Sea East are never referred to as the "Great Sea" "Great Water" "Irreantum" "Many Waters" "Deep" and "Great Deep" that they crossed. In other words, neither the Atlantic or the Pacific oceans bordered Book of Mormon lands. Therefore, they could have traveled east or west beyond the Sea West and East to other lands for timber.

-------------

Also, according to Alma 22:31-32 we do know how wide the Land of Desolation was.

I have a small comment to make. WE don't really even know what oceans "the great deep" or "Irreantum" refer to. Do they refer to just the pacific ocean? Or is it any ocean? The text never says.

A some what strong case can be made that Irreantum refers to the pacific ocean.

[BOMG]

WE don't really even know what oceans "the great deep" or "Irreantum" refer to. Do they refer to just the pacific ocean? Or is it any ocean? The text never says.

Correct!

Did they border Book of Mormon lands?

No.

[Anijen]

BOMG 03 February 2010 - 10:50 AM

They WERE deposited, except a "few." Meaning, a sheet or two, not 40-60 lbs that could easily slow Moroni down in battle and fall into the hands of an enemy. Honestly, what are you drinking?

You can belittle me all you want and accuse me of drinking whatever, it doesn't change the fact that you are guessing here. This is not in the text of the Book of Mormon it is all speculation and guessing on your part.

If there is evidence of deforestation then their NOT Book of Mormon lands. They overcame the problem.

I never said they didn't overcome the problem. In complete opposite of what you are saying there was deforestation in the Book of Mormon.

Hel. 3:9

9 And the people who were in the land northward did dwell in tents, and in houses of cement, and they did suffer whatsoever tree should spring up upon the face of the land that it should grow up, that in time they might have timber to build their houses, yea, their cities, and their temples, and their synagogues, and their sanctuaries, and all manner of their buildings.

I wouldn't support Sperry if my life depended on it. HE began the apologetic distortion of the method of "translation" that people like Brant still haven't come to terms with, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I support him in some areas and disagree with him in others. I do with many people I am willing to bet I agree with you on some things too.

[BOMG]

You can belittle me all you want and accuse me of drinking whatever, it doesn't change the fact that you are guessing here. This is not in the text of the Book of Mormon it is all speculation and guessing on your part...I never said they didn't overcome the problem. In complete opposite of what you are saying there was deforestation in the Book of Mormon...I support him in some areas and disagree with him in others. I do with many people I am willing to bet I agree with you on some things too.

Stirring peas helps no one other than yourself. Will you contribute or just stir?

[Anijen]

Stirring peas helps no one other than yourself. Will you contribute or just stir?

And this last post of your contributes how? And you accuse me of "stirring peas."

I explain, cite and logically debate the issue. You are free to disagree or not but you do not need to get philippic.

[Anijen]

Just a side not. I have two books on the mound builders and the Hopewell culture. Both authors are impressed with the buildings of temples in Mesoamerica and they theorize that the temple theme migrated northward. The temple mounds of the Hopewells, although built from dirt as opposed to cement and stone served similarly in purpose that being mostly a burial place.

[BOMG]

Just a side not. I have two books on the mound builders and the Hopewell culture. Both authors are impressed with the buildings of temples in Mesoamerica and they theorize that the temple theme migrated northward. The temple mounds of the Hopewells, although built from dirt as opposed to cement and stone served similarly in purpose that being mostly a burial place.

And...

[Mortal Man]

Joseph gives a general outline of the information he received from Moroni in the Wentworth Letter. Describing the first visit, on September 23, 1823, he says,

[shrff]

Just a side not. I have two books on the mound builders and the Hopewell culture. Both authors are impressed with the buildings of temples in Mesoamerica and they theorize that the temple theme migrated northward. The temple mounds of the Hopewells, although built from dirt as opposed to cement and stone served similarly in purpose that being mostly a burial place.

What books are you reading? Are they written by archaeologists in the last 20 years?

When you say "temple mound" are you referring to quadrilateral Hopewell earthworks? These sort of constructions occur in a variety of cross-cultural contexts. There is a lot of danger in assuming that various ideas/technologies diffused from one area to another. Things like temples and earthen mounds often develop independently in various areas. Making the distinction between diffusion and independent invention is a delicate process that requires a ton of data.

[BOMG]

Ethan Smith filed his copyright application for View of the Hebrews on June 11, 1823. His book informed residents of Vermont and New York concerning the aboriginal inhabitants of this country, showed who they were and from whence they came, and sketched their origin, progress, civilization, laws, governments and final destruction by their savage brethren.

And...

[BOMG]

There is a lot of danger in assuming that various ideas/technologies diffused from one area to another. Things like temples and earthen mounds often develop independently in various areas. Making the distinction between diffusion and independent invention is a delicate process that requires a ton of data.

Right! People working in the US Patent office will tell you there is a universal consciousness permiating the minds of same thinking individuals, inspiring all. Several inventors will file similar patents, at the same time, unaware of the others. Add God, Holy Spirit, historical imprints, an adversary, counterfeits, etc. and the ridiculous notion Joseph plagiarized something evaporates.