Joseph's visions of the Nephite Civilization...

[shrff]

If you're fixed on Mesoamerica, no amount of evidence will sway you.

The only hope we have is for those who haven't been indoctrinated, and are not friends or relatives of Mesotheorists.

I wish to please the Lord, respect the history, the prophecies, and first hand accounts like Oliver, Joseph, and David.

Clark (like most researchers), lack a basic understanding of how and where the final war(s) were fought.

1. The Jaredite battle was fought at the Hill Ramah, not Cumorah.

2. The Hill Cumorah was opposite the front line. Anyone looking within a mile of the hill will find nothing.

3. Discoveries have already been made and documented. (See Olive's book for details.)

4. We have the location of a Nephite war camp that is undisturbed, and ready to be radio carbon dated. This knowledge was posted on our Book of Mormon Christian web site SIX YEARS AGO! The archaeologists and Book of Mormon geography enthusiasts we have spoken to RUN scared. No one is interested. Sad.

If you send me the link I'll look at your data. Radiocarbon dates are cheap, maybe $600 a sample for AMS. It'll be cheaper if you have larger sized samples. You should run the dates if you have samples. I'd suggest hiring an archaeologist to survey and excavate your site. There are plenty of firms in the New York area I could put you in touch with.

I think you're still missing my point. You seem to be picking and choosing portions of Clark's work that you like and ignoring the rest. You shouldn't discount his assessment of the archaeology of that region because he thinks that Meso is the best fit. You still have a real problem with the archaeology of your area not fitting the text.

[Ceeboo]

4. We have the location of a Nephite war camp that is undisturbed, and ready to be radio carbon dated. This knowledge was posted on our Book of Mormon Christian web site SIX YEARS AGO! The archaeologists and Book of Mormon geography enthusiasts we have spoken to RUN scared. No one is interested. Sad.

Hi BOMG,

As a non LDS, I find this to be more than just a little bizarre. Considering the enormous efforts/debates/discussions of the " location " of claimed historical events, I could not imagine any circumatance that your claim would not be immediately and thoroughly investigated by many many interested parties.

I dunno, makes no sense at all to me.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Nofear]

4. We have the location of a Nephite war camp that is undisturbed, and ready to be radio carbon dated. This knowledge was posted on our Book of Mormon Christian web site SIX YEARS AGO! The archaeologists and Book of Mormon geography enthusiasts we have spoken to RUN scared. No one is interested. Sad.

Please cite/link the reference which you state exists on www.bomchristian.com.

[shrff]

Please cite/link the reference which you state exists on www.bomchristian.com.

I just spent about 20 minutes trying to find the information about the battle camp over at that website and couldn't find it.

[shrff]

4. We have the location of a Nephite war camp that is undisturbed, and ready to be radio carbon dated. This knowledge was posted on our Book of Mormon Christian web site SIX YEARS AGO! The archaeologists and Book of Mormon geography enthusiasts we have spoken to RUN scared. No one is interested. Sad.

What archaeologists have you spoken with? Are these LDS people, or researchers working the New York area? I don't think that a real archaeologist would "run scared" from a chance to look at a site. A big part of what we do is look at new sites, especially undisturbed ones.

[Nofear]

So, BOMG makes a claim of a smoking gun of sorts and no citation for reference and then doesn't post for >15 hours now (temporary ban, real life, running scared, I don't know). I was even curious... ah well.

[Calm]

There was this on the site, not sure if someone has referenced it yet or not not having read each and every post in this thread:

We know for a fact that the final Nephite battle did occur around the Hill Cumorah near Palmyra

New York, and when The Book of Mormon is no longer associated exclusively with the Mormon

Church, we will identify the location of an actual Nephite camp that was last used during the

final battle and has been untouched to this day.

(page 4 of the 9 in the geography section)

So apparently the actual location is being withheld publicly...?

[shrff]

There was this on the site, not sure if someone has referenced it yet or not not having read each and every post in this thread: (page 4 of the 9 in the geography section)

So apparently the actual location is being withheld publicly...?

It's probably a good idea, because otherwise the New World Archaeological Foundation will show up with John Clark atop a bulldozer to destroy the site.

[Sevenbak]

I wouldn't call what these people did "Histories". Pre-Histories maybe, but not histories. These early researchers could not date the sites they recorded. Now we can, and the big sites in the area being discussed are all too late.

With archaeological data, when matters just as much as where.

Yes it does, but taking into account that the sites were so numerous, the accounts so prolific, the artifacts so numerous, that for these reasons the Smithsonian itself commissioned E.G. Squires to both research and document the physical sites and collect the histories from the land owners and farmers. It's a numbers game that has to be considered as the artifacts are all over New York State museums.

I believe it to be a must read in the topic of New York antiquities, among others.

http://ia341308.us.archive.org/1/items/antiquitiesofsta00squi/antiquitiesofsta00squi.pdf

[Sevenbak]

Muc: After having spoken with a seventy it is my understanding that the leaders of the Church do know exactly where the occurences in the Book of Mormon took place. However to avoid contention like what we have seen in this specific thread and also not to dehabilitate fragile testimonies, have decided to keep the locations secret.

Sevenbak: Having spoken to the Mission President at the Cumorah Visitor's Center on this very issue, as part of a documentary trip, and knowing what they teach there about that sacred location at the Visitor's Center, I concur the church most definitely holds a position on the issue, though they are careful about it given how so many have different ideas.

Usually we criticize the nay-sayers for holding conspiracy theories. And yet, here I find two believing members explicitly espousing one!?

No conspiracy theories. I see it as a precaution to protect the faith of those who lean more toward modern evidence. JMHO

[Sevenbak]

As it looks like BOMG has left the thread, I won't try to address anything directed toward him. I also hope to make it clear that my belief in a New York setting for the destruction of the Nephites / Jaredites does not mean I share any other viewpoint of said poster.

[Sevenbak]

If you send me the link I'll look at your data. Radiocarbon dates are cheap, maybe $600 a sample for AMS. It'll be cheaper if you have larger sized samples. You should run the dates if you have samples. I'd suggest hiring an archaeologist to survey and excavate your site. There are plenty of firms in the New York area I could put you in touch with.

I think you're still missing my point. You seem to be picking and choosing portions of Clark's work that you like and ignoring the rest. You shouldn't discount his assessment of the archaeology of that region because he thinks that Meso is the best fit. You still have a real problem with the archaeology of your area not fitting the text.

shrff, what is your professional opinion on the radio carbon dating of the Hopewellian culture mounds? From what I've seen, the dating matches the dates of the Nephite demise. Further, the earlier mound civilization, that some refer to as Adena, matches the dates of Jaredites. It is my belief that the Nephites cleaned up the remains of the Jaredites when they took over the land Northward.

This reference by the prophet Ether backs that up to me as well, IMO.

Ether 11:6

And there was great calamity in all the land, for they had testified that a great curse should come upon the land, and also upon the people, and that there should be a great destruction among them, such an one as never had been upon the face of the earth, and their bones should become as heaps of earth upon the face of the land except they should repent of their wickedness.

[Sevenbak]

Hi BOMG,

As a non LDS, I find this to be more than just a little bizarre. Considering the enormous efforts/debates/discussions of the " location " of claimed historical events, I could not imagine any circumatance that your claim would not be immediately and thoroughly investigated by many many interested parties.

I dunno, makes no sense at all to me.

Peace,

Ceeboo

I don't know what he is referring to, but there are (what look to me like) long, straight trench mounds on either side of Cumorah, about a quarter mile long, that to my knowledge the Church has not investigated, nor does it intend to given the sacred nature of the hill and the spiritual reasoning not to.

[Sevenbak]

It's probably a good idea, because otherwise the New World Archaeological Foundation will show up with John Clark atop a bulldozer to destroy the site.

Why so much faith in John Clark when it comes to N.Y. Archeology? By his own admission, NY doesn't interest him, and he simply perused the historical accounts of it's artifacts.

If he would take it more seriously, then perhaps I could take him more seriously.

[Nofear]

No conspiracy theories. I see it as a precaution to protect the faith of those who lean more toward modern evidence. JMHO

Got it. All the General Authorities know the real geography of the Book of Mormon but I guess we have to protect those "Internet Mormons" from the truth lest their testimonies be shaken.

[Terry Anderson]

I believe it to be a must read in the topic of New York antiquities, among others.

http://ia341308.us.a...ofsta00squi.pdf

Hi Sevenbak. You are a fountain of useful information. I will enjoy reading this report from 1851, mainly because it helps me understand the world JS lived in. i wonder if you'll be able to get your hands on the report coming out about the Zelph mound, anytime soon? It will cost $$$$. The researcher you put me onto said there is no carbon dating in his paper, but perhaps similar mounds in the area have been dated.

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

Got it. All the General Authorities know the real geography of the Book of Mormon but I guess we have to protect those "Internet Mormons" from the truth lest their testimonies be shaken.

No, you don't get it. There are some things that right now must remain anonymous. Remember that God has not revealed everything, and the things that He has revealed to His anointed servants, some of them are not meant to be heard by the public still.

Case in point: The Transfiguration of Christ, witnessed by only three of the 12 apostles, and Jesus telling them, basically, do not relate this story until I am ascended to heaven, after my resurrection.

There are lots of things that the GAs and even AAs know that we don't. Doesn't change or shake my testimony...knowing that God will reveal more things relevant to His kingdom in His own time and in His own manner.

[Anijen]

No, you don't get it. There are some things that right now must remain anonymous. Remember that God has not revealed everything, and the things that He has revealed to His anointed servants, some of them are not meant to be heard by the public still.

Case in point: The Transfiguration of Christ, witnessed by only three of the 12 apostles, and Jesus telling them, basically, do not relate this story until I am ascended to heaven, after my resurrection.

There are lots of things that the GAs and even AAs know that we don't. Doesn't change or shake my testimony...knowing that God will reveal more things relevant to His kingdom in His own time and in His own manner.

I think he gets it just fine. The Church has no official stand neither do they have an unofficial stand on the geography of the Book of Mormon. I agree with you that God has not revealed everything, and the things that He has revealed to His anointed servants, some of them are not meant to be heard yet. But that is a big difference than saying The Church leaders all believe that Cumorah in New York is the final battle hill but does not make that knowledge to the public because of fear of damaging their testimonies, which is essentially what Sevenbak was saying and what Nofear was commenting on.

[Sevenbak]

Hi Sevenbak. You are a fountain of useful information. I will enjoy reading this report from 1851, mainly because it helps me understand the world JS lived in. i wonder if you'll be able to get your hands on the report coming out about the Zelph mound, anytime soon? It will cost $$$$. The researcher you put me onto said there is no carbon dating in his paper, but perhaps similar mounds in the area have been dated.

Hope you enjoy it. It's a great read, and he covers a lot of recent fortifications and bones / fortifications that are too young to be from the right time period, as well as others that fit the bill perfectly.

Also, in addition to Squire, you will want to check out Orsamus Turner's, The Pioneer History of the Holland Purchase of Western New York.

...especially the first few chapters on ancient occupants, relics, battlefields, etc. of Western New York. Great stuff.

[Sevenbak]

Got it. All the General Authorities know the real geography of the Book of Mormon but I guess we have to protect those "Internet Mormons" from the truth lest their testimonies be shaken.

Not geography in general, but specifically Cumorah, yes, I think they do, and have been consistent in teaching it. Just ask any seminary or institute student or teacher, or the missionaries called to serve at the Palmyra Church sites. If what they are being taught to teach is errant, someone needs to tell them.

[Anijen]

Not geography in general, but specifically Cumorah, yes, I think they do, and have been consistent in teaching it. Just ask any seminary or institute student or teacher, or the missionaries called to serve at the Palmyra Church sites. If what they are being taught to teach is errant, someone needs to tell them.

This to me is an elitist approach and comes very close to calling the general authorities as liars. Let me explain;

Elitist as only those who believe that Cumorah was the final battle hill have a testimony strong enough not to be shaken so they keep the truth away from those LGT guys who think otherwise.

Liars because the church says it has no official stand, yet you say they secretly do but because of our weak testimonies we wouldn't be able to handle the truth.

I could ask my CES instructors and some would agree with me and some with you just because they are CES instructors doesn't mean they are in the know... Same for the missionaries who serve there some will follow tradition and others may have a different opinion. And you always speak in bold generalizations for example "just ask any seminary or institute student..." since I was both and hold to a different idea as you that makes your statement wrong.

Sevenbak I was a bit taken back by your argument that the church leaders all know but wont tell because they are worried about my testimony.

[Nofear]

There is no doubt that there are plenty of opinions on the matter from the lowest rank to the highest. But, I admit that I am a bit disturbed by the position taken that the Church is deliberately withholding information about Book of Mormon geography while publicly declaring that there is no official geography for the last battle. Such a course could only be done with conspiracy level agreement - lying for the Lord as it were.

But, as I think about it, it all makes so much sense now. Sorenson was probably asked to write his book to give the weak testimonied a theory to cling to so they didn't lose faith in the weightier matters over this issue irrelevant to personal salvation. But, it makes me wonder if this stratagem is being reconsidered with the Maxwell Institute's funding being reduced from some 38 million to a measly 5 million and all, not to mention of the Church's refusal to crack down on Meldrum.

[Nofear]

Since it makes so much sense now, I even started a new thread: Palmyra New York as the Last Battle since large threads like this often attract few new readers.

[alter idem]

...Clark (like most researchers), lack a basic understanding of how and where the final war(s) were fought.

1. The Jaredite battle was fought at the Hill Ramah, not Cumorah.

2. The Hill Cumorah was opposite the front line. Anyone looking within a mile of the hill will find nothing.

Please note Ramah and Cumorah are the same hill--"Ramah" is the Jaredite name, "Cumorah" is Nephite/Lamanite name.