Joseph's visions of the Nephite Civilization...

[Sevenbak]

Wrong. If you stand where they did on the south shore of Lake Ontario, you cannot see its boundary anywhere, it appears to go forever!

Except that we know the Nephites had ships. Why they would make such a claim from just looking from shore is beyond my comprehension in understanding your post.

[Sevenbak]

Mola I am glad your getting that vibe from him too. I thought is it only me that this guy seems to be so condescending?

No, it's pretty much most of us.

Many of us disagree on specifics, but there are civil ways to discuss things.

[Sevenbak]

If anyone wants to know my true motives, they are;

I post a lot in the threads about Book of Mormon geography. It is an interest of mine, even a hobby that I have invested way too much money. I love the Book of Mormon! My motive is like unto it, to bring people to Christ through it. The BoM is a brilliant diamond and the geography is but a small portion of a facet which enhance the shape and light reflecting appearance of it.

Best quote of the thread, IMO!

[Sevenbak]

If the only reason the US of A works is because it as a country as opposed to a land/territory never had kings or queens, then pretty much every country currently in the North and South Americas works except for Canada and the Falklands.

And the current government of Venezuela.

[BOMG]

I'm curious, since you are bringing up the promises about this land... in addition to the many references to the USA (the Gentiles establishing a great nation here on this land, etc), how do you interpret Nephi's prophesy about Columbus and this land? He never landed anywhere near as far north as your model.

As you know, the prophecy refers to "others" being led by God. According to Columbus, he felt he was led by God to go where he did, which did open the way for the Gentiles.

So how does Lehi and company get from the Arabian Sea, up to Lebanon, through the Mediterranean, up through northern Europe, land hopping across near the Arctic, all the while with Nephi only mentioning they left land south east of Jerusalem, sailed many days, and they arrived at the promised land.

Following the way the Children of Israel went, they "wandered in the wilderness" and by foot bent their course to Lebanon. I'll put up some of Aston's work.

[Sevenbak]

And Venezuela.

Ha, beat me to it!

[Sevenbak]

They "wandered in the wilderness" to get to Lebanon. They followed the Liahona, not established trade routes. Duane Aston has elaborated on this greatly with many confirmations. I'll post details and a trail later since he doesn't on his site.

The text makes it clear they wandered eastward from that time forth. It doesn't say north. They were going south and east from the beginning. Why do you assume they would backtrack?

I don't want to hi-jack the thread, but to satisfy your questions for the moment, this is what Book of Mormon Christians believe:

1. Joseph's only call was to transcribe the Book of Mormon, then use his charisma to convert the world to it, not any church.

2. The Urim and Thummim were returned to God because Joseph was not a prophet called to led anyone.

3. Joseph changed early revelations and can't be trusted.

4. God used an unbaptized "Gentile" to do the work of "translation," with flaws, so know one would follow him more than the Book of Mormon.

5. We accept the Book of Mormon, Bible and the few revelations that pertain to the Book of Mormon. Beyond those, discernment must be used.

Joseph did not study the Book of Mormon, nor follow its teachings. In fact, due to disobedience, he was led off Book of Mormon land when he united with Rigdon. But that's another dynamic. Suffice to say, he missed the mark regarding the New Jerusalem, even going so far as to move beyond its borders, which says a lot.

I don't follow Whitmer, but do respect his courage to stand for truth against the odds, and learn where Joseph went wrong. All who knew David vouched for his honesty, and yes, I respect his and the rest of his family's testimonies how the record came forth.

Thanks for the illumination to your point of view.

[BOMG]

Except that we know the Nephites had ships. Why they would make such a claim from just looking from shore is beyond my comprehension in understanding your post.

In comparison to the Sea West, East and South, it was the largest.

No, it's pretty much most of us. Many of us disagree on specifics, but there are civil ways to discuss things.

It's hard to tolerate treatment by Mesotheorists that matches treatment by anti's and ex-Mormons, of the Book of Mormon.

And the current government of Venezuela.

And the other prophecies I mentioned? No one can explain how they are/were fulfilled outside of the U.S.

[Sevenbak]

As you know, the prophecy refers to "others" being led by God. According to Columbus, he felt he was led by God to go where he did, which did open the way for the Gentiles.

Following the way the Children of Israel went, they "wandered in the wilderness" and by foot bent their course to Lebanon. I'll put up some of Aston's work.

And yet Columbus is specifically mentioned as the one being led to this land. That has to include the larger hemispheric scope, even though I agree the other prophecies are specific to the United States.

As to Lehi and Co., you ignored what I asked. They boarded the ship after they reached the sea after traveling first south east, then due east from Jerusalem. Then we read they reached the promised land after sailing many days. What it doesn't say, is that they they disembarked after a heading north, then walked across Iraq or Jordan to Lebanon, built another ship, loaded it with food again, then sailed across the Med, through the straights of Gibraltar, up the coasts of Europe, land hopping all the way across the Arctic.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Ha, beat me to it!

Once in a great while I do that to people. Great minds think alike!

[Calm]

Wow, another "I take the facts so far as they work for me" and "I make up the rest to suit me" approach.

Kind of like your Niagara Falls hypothesis.

[Sevenbak]

It's hard to tolerate treatment by Mesotheorists that matches treatment by anti's and ex-Mormons, of the Book of Mormon.

And the other prophecies I mentioned? No one can explain how they are/were fulfilled outside of the U.S.

I may not agree with the LGT Mesoists here, but not with the LGT Great Lakers either. I don't believe the prophecies can be crammed into either small space.

[Sevenbak]

Once in a great while I do that to people. Great minds think alike!

[Sevenbak]

Kind of like your Niagara Falls hypothesis.

Perhaps they sailed over in barrels...

[Calm]

Perhaps they sailed over in barrels...

Quite a visual, that one.

[Anijen]

Sevenbak

Why so many think Moroni wandered alone through Utah after the battle is beyond me. I read both descriptions as a dedication as they were fleeing north and east.

Probably because of this verse;

Morm. 8:5

... for I am alone. My father hath been slain in battle, and all my kinsfolk, and I have not friends nor whither to go; and how long the Lord will suffer that I may live I know not.

[Cold Steel]

Sorry, was there an apology or retraction in there somewhere???

Apology in the classic sense of the word. On the other hand, you've yet to specifically address any of the issues I've raised, which is okay. You're quite free to believe the Book of Mormon lands are wherever suits your fancy, as long as you believe that the book is a historical account...on that I think we can both agree. I really don't believe asking for a reasonable map and raising the point about the serpents is obfuscation.

Lawrence Poulsen, who is a Mesoamerican geography advocate, has this to say about the River Sidon on his website:

Many of those who attempt to determine the geographic location of the Book of Mormon place undo attention on the

[BOMG]

Kind of like your Niagara Falls hypothesis.

The only hypothesis is "when" they were formed, not how. We know both.

I may not agree with the LGT Mesoists here, but not with the LGT Great Lakers either. I don't believe the prophecies can be crammed into either small space.

Which don't fit Western New York?

Perhaps they sailed over in barrels...

Quite a visual, that one.

Right, the land change which occurred at the resurrection of Jesus Christ should remain today, as the PROOF of a prophecy fulfilled. Show ONE model that does the same. You can't.

Why not give thanks for the knowledge instead of ridiculing what's sacred?

.

[BOMG]

Apology in the classic sense of the word. On the other hand, you've yet to specifically address any of the issues I've raised, which is okay. You're quite free to believe the Book of Mormon lands are wherever suits your fancy, as long as you believe that the book is a historical account...on that I think we can both agree. I really don't believe asking for a reasonable map and raising the point about the serpents is obfuscation.

Here's a partial map:

Details: http://bookofmormong...-lake-tonawanda

Serpents: http://bookofmormong...sonous-serpents

[shrff]

Here's a partial map:

Details: http://bookofmormong...-lake-tonawanda

Serpents: http://bookofmormong...sonous-serpents

The archaeology doesn't fit. These people were sucking snails during BOM times. See Clark's article for a summary.

[BOMG]

The archaeology doesn't fit. These people were sucking snails during BOM times. See Clark's article for a summary.

Care to elaborate what you meant?

[Sevenbak]

Probably because of this verse; \

Morm. 8:5

... for I am alone. My father hath been slain in battle, and all my kinsfolk, and I have not friends nor whither to go; and how long the Lord will suffer that I may live I know not.

Yes, I'm aware of the verses that say Moroni wandered. Also the one about him wandering wheresoever he could for the safety of his own life. I'm also aware of the 2 or 3 instances where he writes that he is done, and was sealing up the record, only to come back later and add more to them.

What I was referring to, is why we think he was alone in Manti Utah dedicating a temple? Since this thread is about believing the prophets, I'll repeat I agree with Brigham Young about Moroni in Manti... however, since I believe Brigham to be a prophet, I also believe him when he said the Nephites (plural) dedicated the St. George temple site, as well as his statements about the mountains of Utah being a stronghold for the Gaddianton Robbers.

If we accept one, we accept them all, AFAIC.

Cheers

[Sevenbak]

Why not give thanks for the knowledge instead of ridiculing what's sacred?

Your model isn't sacred.

And I give thanks for that which is, the Book of Mormon and the knowledge it gives us.

[Sevenbak]

The archaeology doesn't fit. These people were sucking snails during BOM times. See Clark's article for a summary.

Meaning the whole place was underwater?

Do you completely disregard the histories of Western New York by historians like Turner and Squire?

[BOMG]

Meaning the whole place was underwater?

Do you completely disregard the histories of Western New York by historians like Turner and Squire?

Right - WRONG! An official map on our web site shows the area 18k years ago, and the land was fine, and we only need to go back a fraction of that: