Joseph's visions of the Nephite Civilization...

[Anijen]

The only hypothesis is "when" they were formed, not how. We know both.

There is a contradiction in your sentence. First you say it is a hypothesis and then you say you know. I can agree about the hypothesis but it is my hypothesis that your concept is not yet verified thereby still only just a hypothesis.

hypothetically yours

Anijen

[cdowis]

BOMG

I don't want to hi-jack the thread, but to satisfy your questions for the moment, this is what Book of Mormon Christians believe:

1. Joseph's only call was to transcribe the Book of Mormon, then use his charisma to convert the world to it, not any church.

etc

Can you start a new thread, and elaborate on this, specifically where the three witnesses come into play, and what you mean by "transcribe".

thanks

[BOMG]

BOMG Can you start a new thread, and elaborate on this, specifically where the three witnesses come into play, and what you mean by "transcribe".

Go ahead.

[Cold Steel]

...your hack job on Olive's model is ridiculous. You admitted you're not "into geography" so take my advice, leave it alone or READ IT! The following RED CIRCLES are not the same places, not even close. Your hack-job is a lie. She said "Batavia Moraine" so, go to Google earth and type in "Batavia" then come back with a correctly placed RED CIRCLE.

If it is the wrong place, then it's because of the map discrepancy. Follow your own advice and call up Google Earth and type in "Batavia Moraine". It finds a place in Ohio that's completely unrelated. Go back and look at both maps. Using Google Earth's map, you try pointing to the narrow neck of land she references.

Using Niagara Falls as a reference, examine both maps. Olive's map in on the top, the map from Google Earth is on the bottom. If we're going to play "Pin the Tail on the Narrow Neck of Land," you might as well try yourself if you don't like my selection. On the top of Olive's map, she has "Shore of Lake Ontario Today." So is her map supposed to be modern or how she thinks the land looked in the days of Moroni? Also note that the New York Cumorah is pinpointed. The Book of Mormon says that Cumorah was somewhere north of the narrow neck. Looking south on Google Earth, I didn't see any narrow neck of land.

BTW, I did a Google picture search on "Batavia Moraine," and nearly all the photos went back to Olive's website! Looking more closely, it appears her "narrow neck" isn't in existence now as they appear just north of the Finger Lakes. To think that this one narrow neck survived through both Nephite and Jaredite times, yet vanishes in our own day? I notice you also persistently ignore the issue of the serpents. No matter how much warmer you think the land was, it was never warm enough to let serpents cut off the land northward from the land southward for generations. And even if there were such serpents, cutting off the Batavia Moraine would not have kept people from simply going around it.

Don't become so wed to an idea that you'll fall on your sword for it. So far, you've been unable to back up anything you've said. You said your map has more correlations to the Book of Mormon than any of the others, yet you've failed to produce any evidence of it.

You're correct that I'm not a geography expert, but then neither is Olive. Her methodology, and hers, seems to be, locate Cumorah and then make it fit into a map. If you do that, it simply will not work -- and if you stick to that, the critics will eat you for lunch. Mesoamerica fits the geography much better than New York, has the right climate, the right populations of people, has poisonous serpents all year round, and if you cut off that narrow neck of land in Mesoamerica, the only way around it is to sail around it. (Jerry Ainsworth tells of his repeated encounters with deadly serpents while trying to climb Cerro Bernal, his candidate for the Hill Cumorah. He writes: "I don't know how many different kinds of snakes there are in this part of Mexico, but I do know there are some very deadly ones.") It also has "level" highways, which the Book of Mormon describes and which are still in use. Ainsworth believes the water levels anciently were higher, and that this is indicated by where the cities were built and not built. If he's correct, then Mesoamerica fits even more than it does presently.

I used to believe Cumorah was in New York, but when I began reading about it, I realized that it just isn't. If someone could show me a credible map, explain why there's no reference to snow or ice and how serpents could be active all year long for generations, then I'd concede they might have a valid argument. I honestly believe that if Joseph Fielding Smith were alive today and that if he sat down and read both sides of the argument, that he would concede his position.

This map doesn't appear on Google! Instead, it appears to be a projection of how someone thinks the land appeared. Also, there is no Lake Tonawanda that I can find in the area, except a tiny lake barely visible. Looking it up on Google, I discovered "Glacial Lake Tonawanda was a prehistoric lake that existed approximately 10,000 years ago at the end of the last ice age, in Western New York, United States." Olive is using a map showing a prehistoric lake that is no longer around. Who produced her map is a mystery, but it's a fantasy.

This is a modern map of the area today. There's no narrow neck, and if there were, it would be north of where New York Cumorah is.

If you wish to address these, I'll be happy to read every word and seriously consider your point of view. If the Nephi Project were to provide convincing evidence that the Book of Mormon lands were in Peru, I'd also seriously consider their opinions. But again, you're trying to show a round peg into a square hole. Remember, you have to have a land northward and a land southward, and they have to be connected by a narrow neck that you can't simply walk around. And that narrow neck should exist today and not be under water or sunk into the ground.

Until you can provide these things, my friend, I have to put this under the category of "Gimme a Break!"

.

[Cold Steel]

BOMG, I've looked at your map and your explanations posted on your site.

If you're correct that Lake Tonawanda was sucked into the ground at the time of Jesus. If that's true, why is the narrow neck referenced after that event? Also, if the glaciers were receding before that time, that would indicate that the area was still cold and only then beginning to warm. Again, where are your poisonous serpents that cut off the Land Northward and the Land Southward for generations? Also, given your map, what would keep people from just walking around the narrow neck?

At the time of the Book of Mormon, that area was not populated by hundreds of thousands of people, much less millions.

[BOMG]

If it is the wrong place, then it's because of the map discrepancy. Follow your own advice and call up Google Earth and type in "Batavia Moraine".

I said type in "Batavia."

If we're going to play "Pin the Tail on the Narrow Neck of Land,"

It is impossible to see on a Satellite, State or Country map something Mormon considered "narrow" from eye level. As we say, it should be the LAST THIING identified.

The Book of Mormon says that Cumorah was somewhere north of the narrow neck.

Wrong. We only know that it was east of the Land Northward, and south of the Sea North. It was not in BoM lands. To surmise more than that is merely a guess. It very well may have been further south (geographically speaking) than the Narrow Neck, albeit many miles east.

it appears her "narrow neck" isn't in existence now as they appear just north of the Finger Lakes. To think that this one narrow neck survived through both Nephite and Jaredite times, yet vanishes in our own day?

Honestly, you keeping drawing conclusions without facts, and here you want to say you know something we don't? Listen up, the city of Batavia isn't by the Finger Lakes, it's not even by Palmyra. Yes, it exists today as is explained in her books AND ON HER WEB SITE - READ! Or give it a rest.

I notice you also persistently ignore the issue of the serpents. No matter how much warmer you think the land was, it was never warm enough to let serpents cut off the land northward from the land southward for generations.

You did not read the "serpents" link provided. Lockport, which is very near the Narrow Neck, did keep Indians and Colonists out of the Lockport FOR GENERATIONS.

Don't become so wed to an idea that you'll fall on your sword for it. So far, you've been unable to back up anything you've said. You said your map has more correlations to the Book of Mormon than any of the others, yet you've failed to produce any evidence of it.

Well, you wont read, follow links, or search as described so no, I don't believe you will agree.

You're correct that I'm not a geography expert, but then neither is Olive. Her methodology, and hers, seems to be, locate Cumorah and then make it fit into a map.

What's wrong with starting at Cumorah, the real Cumorah, not one made up? Not only do the prophecies back it up, but D&C 128, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and a host of others. Mesotheorists ignore those at a cost. DNA is merely one. The fulfillment of prophecy a second, and their own canon a third.

Mesoamerica fits the geography much better than New York

Not hardly, then have not Sea North or South, we are the only ones with FOUR SEAS around the Land Northward, and THREE around the Land Southward.

I used to believe Cumorah was in New York, but when I began reading about it, I realized that it just isn't. If someone could show me a credible map, explain why there's no reference to snow or ice

[Sevenbak]

Right - WRONG! An official map on our web site shows the area 18k years ago, and the land was fine, and we only need to go back a fraction of that:

How is an 18,000 year old view of the geography relevant to the Nephites, or even the Jaredites in the land of Cumorah / Ramah?

[BOMG]

How is an 18,000 year old view of the geography relevant to the Nephites, or even the Jaredites in the land of Cumorah / Ramah?

It shows that they weren't "sucking up snails."

Not 18,000 years ago, or 2,000 years ago!

[BOMG]

One of the VERY EXCITING discoveries in recent days is of the PIER Hagoth used to build and launch his ships from. It's called "Black Rock Pier" and is located along the Narrow Neck as it said.

Details here:

http://bookofmormongeography.org/black-rock-pier

[BOMG]

Discovery #2

The "other books" prophesied to come forth from the Gentiles will not necessarily be scripture, but perhaps history, geography, and archaeological books:

And after it had come forth unto them

I BEHELD

OTHER BOOKS

, which came forth by the power of the Lamb,

FROM THE GENTILES

unto them,

UNTO THE CONVINCING OF THE GENTILES

and the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the Jews who were scattered upon all the face of the earth, that the records of the prophets and of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are true. (1 Nephi 13:39)

Knowing the prophecies that the "white Gentiles" would come by the "multitudes" to Book of Mormon lands and inhabit them, remnants of days gone by would become lost and trodden upon quickly, leaving only evidences to be found in the BOOKS God moved upon certain men to write, such as:

• Memoir on the Antiquities of the Western Parts of the State of New York by Governor De Witt Clinton in 1820
• History of the State of New York by John V. N. Yates and Joseph W. Moulton in 1824
• The Natural, Statistical and Civil History of the State of New York in Three Volumes by James Macauley in 1829
• American Antiquities by Josiah Priest in 1833
• A Geographical History of the State of New York: Embracing its History, Government, Physical Features, Climate, Geology, Mineralogy, Botany, Zoology, Education, Internal Improvements, &c. With a Separate Map of Each County. The Whole Forming a Complete History of the State. by J. H. Mather and L. P. Brockett, M. D. in 1848
• Documentary History of New York by Christopher Morgan in 1849
• Pioneer History of the Holland Purchase of Western New York by O. Turner in 1850
• League of the Iroquois by Lewis Henry Morgan in 1851
• Antiquities of the State of New York by E. G. Squier in 1851
• Archeological History of New York vol. 1-2 by Arthur Caswell Parker in 1920
• The Archaeology of New York State by William A. Ritchie in 1965
• Ephraim George Squier and the Development of American Anthropology by Terry A. Barnhart in 2005

*Confirmations are to be found in BOOKS - as the prophecy says.

.

[Anijen]

One of the VERY EXCITING discoveries in recent days is of the PIER Hagoth used to build and launch his ships from. It's called "Black Rock Pier" and is located along the Narrow Neck as it said.

Details here:

http://bookofmormongeography.org/black-rock-pier

This is a sloppy and just downright terrible book of mormon geography site. In fact I think it is the worse one I have ever seen and I have seen many, and many of those were just plain bad. The places are cherry picked from who knows, a map from 18000 BCE or 2000 BCE or somewhere in between and then one site might be picked from one map and then one from another just to match a location which in all honesty is still out there like Pluto and like Pluto was, it needs to be demoted. And from what I can tell, none of these maps are from any credible source, they seem made up.

Then (as if there is more), The site proclaims these "new" discoveries as absolutes, touting them as facts, and when one criticizes any of it, were told we are the ones incompetent or disrespecting something sacred.

I love threads on geography but seriously this is ridiculous and I don't have the patience of Job to read all the junk (I couldn't think of a better word) this bogus site proclaims as truth sorry I meant sacred truths.

I am banning myself from this thread and wish Sevenbak, and Coldsteel more fortitude than I can muster. May I repent and come back in a better frame of mind to debate.

Out for the count

Anijen

[BOMG]

This is a sloppy..jibberish

Thought I already flushed you out, why'd you come back? More disparaging? Sad.

Then (as if there is more), The site proclaims these "new" discoveries as absolutes, touting them as facts, and when one criticizes any of it, were told we are the ones incompetent or disrespecting something sacred.

The internal matches the external. If the glove fits...we wear it. You show me ONE theorists who has demonstrated a harbor where:

a. Lehi docked his ship.

b. Hagoth docked his ships.

I wont' hold my breath!

Regarding what's sacred, I was referring to the land change prophecies and how and where it was fulfilled. Again, we match ALL THREE MODELS:

a. Internal

b. External

c. Spiritual (prophetic)

Again, you cannot site ONE theorists who has identified WHERE JESUS APPEARED or WHERE THE LAND CHANGE prophecy was fulfilled. Call me, what was it..."sloppy" for asking, but I'm asking!

I love threads on geography but seriously this is ridiculous and I don't have the patience

If you exit from this discussion I could at least say you followed one direction right. Thanks for harassing.

.

[Ceeboo]

Peace,

Ceeboo

[BOMG]

Mock if you want, you seem to be oblivious to the truth. Is that your alias and a true picture of yourself anijen?

[LeSellers]

You show me ONE theorists who has demonstrated a harbor where:

a. Lehi docked his ship.

CFR that "Lehi docked his ship" at all. Where are you reading that?

b. Hagoth docked his ships.

CFR that "Hagoth docked his ships". The book of Mormon does not say anything about docks; not for Lehi, not for Hagoth, not even for the Brother of Jared.

Neither dock nor harbor need be inferred from the words "by shipping". Many modern Polynesians still do not dock their "ships", but simply run them up onto the beach, or into a lagoon then offload them by lightering the cargo on small rafts or just by floating it onto shore. Timber is "shipped" by rafting it down rivers or across lakes. It requires neither harbor nor dock, it doesn't even require a ship.

Lehi

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

Peace,

Ceeboo

In agreement with Ceeboo...this argument (New York, Mexico, or Peru) is rather nuts considering that the Church has no official position on the matter and what has come out, has been the hypotheses of many archaeologists, based off of some quotes by the earlier prophets, which tend to be used to support one of the three models.

[Ceeboo]

In agreement with Ceeboo...this argument (New York, Mexico, or Peru) is rather nuts considering that the Church has no official position on the matter and what has come out, has been the hypotheses of many archaeologists, based off of some quotes by the earlier prophets, which tend to be used to support one of the three models.

Hi Muc'ul,

Be very careful to agree with Ceeboo around here

The last few pages of this thread does seem rather silly to me ( Lots of speculation, opinion, and personal insults between LDS folks about personal speculation ) largely because the LDS Church has no position on it.

BTW, to be clear, I was not mocking anyone with my " crazy " post, I simply think the " speculation being offered as fact " is indeed crazy.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[BOMG]

CFR that "Lehi docked his ship" at all. Where are you reading that? CFR that "Hagoth docked his ships". The book of Mormon does not say anything about docks;

You right, it does not say "docks."

In agreement with Ceeboo...this argument (New York, Mexico, or Peru) is rather nuts considering that the Church has no official position on the matter

largely because the LDS Church has no position on it.

Wrong.

The LDS Church states clearly in its canon and official history that the hill in Palmyra is THE Hill Cumorah, where the final battle(s) occurred.

It's time to accept facts.

.

[LeSellers]

The LDS Church states clearly in its canon and official history that the hill in Palmyra is THE Hill Cumorah, where the final battle(s) occurred.

CFR that the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has stated "clearly in its canon and official history tha that the hill in Palmyra is the hill Cumorah, where the final battles(s) occurred."

Lehi

[BOMG]

CFR that the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has stated "clearly in its canon and official history tha that the hill in Palmyra is the hill Cumorah, where the final battles(s) occurred."Lehi

Official Church Canon: http://bookofmormong...rg/church-canon

Official Church History: http://bookofmormong.../church-history

Official First Presidency Statement: http://bookofmormongeography.org/watson-letter

.

[Sevenbak]

It shows that they weren't "sucking up snails."

Not 18,000 years ago, or 2,000 years ago!

Well, on this we agree.

[Sevenbak]

One of the VERY EXCITING discoveries in recent days is of the PIER Hagoth used to build and launch his ships from. It's called "Black Rock Pier" and is located along the Narrow Neck as it said.

Details here:

http://bookofmormongeography.org/black-rock-pier

Can you explain why it took Hagoth an entire year to return with his ship after launching in the West Sea, if the narrow neck was in the Great Lakes?

Or for that matter, this same question could be put to the Mesoist LGT folks here too.

[Sevenbak]

This is a sloppy and just downright terrible book of mormon geography site. In fact I think it is the worse one I have ever seen and I have seen many, and many of those were just plain bad. The places are cherry picked from who knows, a map from 18000 BCE or 2000 BCE or somewhere in between and then one site might be picked from one map and then one from another just to match a location which in all honesty is still out there like Pluto and like Pluto was, it needs to be demoted. And from what I can tell, none of these maps are from any credible source, they seem made up.

Then (as if there is more), The site proclaims these "new" discoveries as absolutes, touting them as facts, and when one criticizes any of it, were told we are the ones incompetent or disrespecting something sacred.

I love threads on geography but seriously this is ridiculous and I don't have the patience of Job to read all the junk (I couldn't think of a better word) this bogus site proclaims as truth sorry I meant sacred truths.

I am banning myself from this thread and wish Sevenbak, and Coldsteel more fortitude than I can muster. May I repent and come back in a better frame of mind to debate.

Out for the count

Anijen

Come on back, repent of your oath and lead the armies once again...

[Sevenbak]

The last few pages of this thread does seem rather silly to me ( Lots of speculation, opinion, and personal insults between LDS folks about personal speculation )

Hi Ceebo, just to be clear, BOMG is not LDS in the tradition of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. He follows an apostate group that broke off in 1837 after David Whitmer was excommunicated. BOMG can correct me if I'm wrong, or if he belongs to some other restorationist movement.

Cheers

[Sevenbak]

Official Church Canon: http://bookofmormong...rg/church-canon

Official Church History: http://bookofmormong.../church-history

Official First Presidency Statement: http://bookofmormongeography.org/watson-letter

.

You forgot the letter published to all Bishops by the First Presidency back when this modern theory first started popping up in the 60's.

(but then again, you wouldn't be following the LDS First Presidency, would you. )

_________________________________________________________________

The Messenger, July 1960, No. 51.

Bishops