Parable of Sheep and Goats and salvation requirements

[Tanyan]

All you need is LOVE ! As Believed by John and Paul [ Both the Apostles and the Beatles ! ]

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Vance]

Your simply a thistle and it's time for me to get out of the thistle patch.

Sorry Echo, but I don't have any more room in my signature line for your praises.

If you don't want to come back, that is your choice. But the invitation to return is always open to you.

May I suggest that you do more personal study of the scriptures. You will be surprised at what you find in them.

Good luck and God bless you.

[volgadon]

I just noticed your 3rd siggy, is Echo part of the same truth in love ministry that merganzerman is part of?

Anyway I have an Echo in mine too. Darn proudd of it.

[Vance]

I just noticed your 3rd siggy, is Echo part of the same truth in love ministry that merganzerman is part of?

Anyway I have an Echo in mine too. Darn proudd of it.

I don't know if Echo is a part of the ministry or not, but he is (or was) a heavy poster on their discussion site. He and I locked horns on several occasions (until I was unceromoniously and without notice or warning banned). His behavior and posting style are the same there as here.

[volgadon]

My favourite was the parroting. Class act, that.

[Vance]

My favourite was the parroting. Class act, that.

I am not sure what you mean by that statement. Could you clarify?

[Vance]

Bump for Echo with a question.

Please explain these verses.

Luke 1:5

[Zakuska]

I am not sure what you mean by that statement. Could you clarify?

Not to answer ofr volgadon. but I beleive he ws refering to this post...

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/46798-parable-of-sheep-and-goats-and-salvation-requirements/page__view__findpost__p__1208787276

[Vance]

I see.

Thanks.

[volgadon]

Yeah, that was exactly it. Thanks, Zak.

[merganzerman]

Greetings!

It's been too long since I last wrote a post and I apologize for that. I really have no excuses. I have been reading the posts, however, and have been giving alot of thought to what I ought to write. Many of you have asked good, reasonable questions. But the problem is that whatever we write, we would more than like go around and around, wouldn't we? And that gets very frustrating, doesn't it? I can sense that frustration in your posts and in mine as well.

After giving thought to how I want to answer, I think it may be important do dig a little deeper. Why do you fervently defend that faith and works is necessary for salvation? Why do I believe it's faith alone for salvation? I'm trying to get to the source of the frustration. I do think that we have different definitions of key words that still need to be ironed out -- and that's okay. At least we know where we are coming from when we throw out theological words. It seems that for me, the root of my belief that faith alone is the answer is found in the phrase -- justification by faith. What about you?

I think this discussion would take such a radio turn over the theme of this thread, that I'm very tempted to start a new one. I do have some concerns, however. I don't think I will be able to answer everybody's questions. I want to be committed to be active in this thread. Perhaps someone can start that thread or encourage me to start one and we can go forward.

By the way, I just completed a series on one of my blogs entitled, "Are Mormons Christian?" There are about six different posts. The latest one I completed today had to do with temples and why they are important to the Mormon faith. I'm not attempting to advertise my blog and generate traffic -- you know how that goes. But, it seems to me that the practices of carrying out the ordinances in the temple is at the heart of Mormonism -- especially in carrying out the ordinances vicariously. I think that practice alone is a significant reason that differentiates Mormonism from Christianity. Again, another thread topic.

Finally, allow me to share with you on this topic that I believe that works are important. I would say that BY Faith Alone we are saved, but faith is never alone. Does that make sense.

It's good to be back.

[Flyonthewall]

Greetings!

<snip>

By the way, I just completed a series on one of my blogs entitled, "Are Mormons Christian?" There are about six different posts. The latest one I completed today had to do with temples and why they are important to the Mormon faith. I'm not attempting to advertise my blog and generate traffic -- you know how that goes. But, it seems to me that the practices of carrying out the ordinances in the temple is at the heart of Mormonism -- especially in carrying out the ordinances vicariously. I think that practice alone is a significant reason that differentiates Mormonism from Christianity. Again, another thread topic.

Finally, allow me to share with you on this topic that I believe that works are important. I would say that BY Faith Alone we are saved, but faith is never alone. Does that make sense.

It's good to be back.

This is what we have been saying all along...Faith is never alone. Living faith is always accompanied by works. Not works of the Law of Moses, but the works of following Christ's teachings and obeying the commandments.

And yes, temples are a significant difference between LDS and mainstream Christianity, but as has been pointed out before, an elephant's trunk is a significant difference between elephants and other mammals, but an elephant is still a mammal. We will be the first one to agree that we are different than mainstream Christianity, but we are Christian none the less.

[merganzerman]

This is what we have been saying all along...Faith is never alone. Living faith is always accompanied by works. Not works of the Law of Moses, but the works of following Christ's teachings and obeying the commandments.

And yes, temples are a significant difference between LDS and mainstream Christianity, but as has been pointed out before, an elephant's trunk is a significant difference between elephants and other mammals, but an elephant is still a mammal. We will be the first one to agree that we are different than mainstream Christianity, but we are Christian none the less.

I'm glad we found some common ground. I'm glad that you agree that we receive salvation by faith alone. And, the evidence of a living and active faith is demonstrated by our fruit (doing good works, carrying out God's commands, keeping the faith, etc...). In that way, faith is never alone. We certainly please God with our works, but we can't earn our salvation through them. Again, that is using the main basis that we are justified by faith.

Interesting take on describing the difference between the temple of the LDS Church and Christianity. Yes, I agree they may appear simliar on the outside, but the essence behind the ordinances carried out inside the temple does not align with Christian truth. That's why Mormonism is considered a new religion. In fact, living with many within Mormonism (Idaho), it really has been in the last 15-20 years that Mormons even invited the Christian tag or desired to considered a part of Christianity. They always desired to set themselves apart. Interesting.

[volgadon]

but the essence behind the ordinances carried out inside the temple does not align with Christian truth.

Please elaborate, without, of course, going into the details of temple ordinances.

[Programmer]

[Cute avatar Vance - one of the best I've seen here on the boards]

Hello friends,

To say that we are not saved by works is simply not true, friends; my full salvation took a LOT of works.

As a Latter-Day Christian, however, the emphasis was MY works, MY "obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel", MY worthy behavior all done "through the atonement of Jesus Christ" (makes "filthy rags" sound good).

To those who have eternal life, however, the emphasis is 100% upon the atonement of Jesus Christ to second the decision to believe was made.

I distinctly remember the hour that I made the conscious, deliberate decision to allow eternal life to truly be a "gift of God" instead of the reward of my worthy behavior. That day, a good, honest, active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was reborn at that moment, and Jesus Christ became alive within my heart.

My life has never been the same, Friends.

And I distinctly remember the day, when we finally got a confession out of you (circa 2004) that you a born again christian could still murder and still be saved. You see the extreme with which this doctrine if taken, can lead to silly conclusions. So something is wrong with the extremes of your position.

Though I grant you, I believe you had some sort of experience when you realized you are saved by grace after all you can do. I also had a wonderful moment when I realized the same fact too. However I still realize that if I am not careful I too can fall from grace.

However I still think alot of people have still missed the required works that Jesus, and his church require for salvation. Let me list them in order:

1. Faith

2. Repentence

3. Baptism

4. Confirmation for the Gift of Holy Ghost.

Oh, and let me add, that #3 and #4 must be done by one holding real authority from God. Anyone else administering these ordinances without the priesthood is a like a salesman selling fake life insurance. That is it looks good until you die.

[Tanyan]

We are Saved by Grace [charis] Alone by Faith [pistis] Alone by way of Jesus Christs Authorized Servants !.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan = LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Flyonthewall]

...

Interesting take on describing the difference between the temple of the LDS Church and Christianity. Yes, I agree they may appear simliar on the outside, but the essence behind the ordinances carried out inside the temple does not align with Christian truth. That's why Mormonism is considered a new religion. In fact, living with many within Mormonism (Idaho), it really has been in the last 15-20 years that Mormons even invited the Christian tag or desired to considered a part of Christianity. They always desired to set themselves apart. Interesting.

LDS have never desired to be non-Christian, just different than mainstream Christianity.

[Calm]

In fact, living with many within Mormonism (Idaho), it really has been in the last 15-20 years that Mormons even invited the Christian tag or desired to considered a part of Christianity.

I am over 50. My mother blessed me with the name meaning "Christian" way back when and she did so not because it sounded nice. LDS have always considered themselves followers of Christ and Christians even if some have at times differentiated between themselves and the rest of Christian religions in other ways. In those 50plus years, I have lived all over the States and in other countries and have never met face to face a Saint that didn't call themselves "Christian". I do not know where this myth of LDS only recently wanted to be known as Christian started, but it certainly wasn't among the many members I have lived with.

So CFR on only 15-20 years that LDS have "invited the Christian tag".

[merganzerman]

Please elaborate, without, of course, going into the details of temple ordinances.

Sure, I can elaborate without going into details. Basically, its the vicarious work. To briefly summarize, Biblical Christianity teaches that once a person is dead, they are dead. And the reason for that is that you receive one chance only to trust Jesus Christ as your perfect substitute. By His completed work on the cross, we receive free forgiveness and are fully righteous and 100% worthy to be in heaven and are saved from eternal hell reserved for those who have placed their trust in their works. If there was another chance to be saved -- vicariously in this case -- than Christ never had to have risen from the dead. You can see, I hope, how the vicarious work can be seriously against the essential doctrine of Christianity.

Thanks for allowing me to respond.

[merganzerman]

We are Saved by Grace [charis] Alone by Faith [pistis] Alone by way of Jesus Christs Authorized Servants !.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan = LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Hi Tanyan. Your statement certainly sounds Christian. However, I think you will find that we have a much different definitions of grace and what it is. I can tell when you close "In His Debt". To what you believe, what is the definition of grace. And I think you will a large difference.

I can see you call yourself the LDS Jedi Knight. I guess that would place me as the Christian Darth Vader? Minus the heavy breathing.

[merganzerman]

I am over 50. My mother blessed me with the name meaning "Christian" way back when and she did so not because it sounded nice. LDS have always considered themselves followers of Christ and Christians even if some have at times differentiated between themselves and the rest of Christian religions in other ways. In those 50plus years, I have lived all over the States and in other countries and have never met face to face a Saint that didn't call themselves "Christian". I do not know where this myth of LDS only recently wanted to be known as Christian started, but it certainly wasn't among the many members I have lived with.

So CFR on only 15-20 years that LDS have "invited the Christian tag".

Yes, that is a reasonable CFR request. In talking with many fellow Christians, that has been our experience and observation. Which makes us both curious and concerned. If it is wrong to share observations from people outside of Mormonism, I have trouble seeing how that could be wrong. With that being said, I do believe that Mormons could not be considered Christian based on the teachings of Mormonism, not because you follow Christ's example, desire to pay back the debt you owe as a result of Christ's atonement or strive to be model citizens. The Mormons I know, I like very much and have grew up with LDS as a child (back in the 70's) and counted them as my friends. I don't believe the Mormons have been taught the full message of the gospel in the LDS church, and I want to share that message for you, so you can see the difference.

I listened to a secular talk radio show in Boise, and they were talking about the billboards targeting LDS women in Eastern Idaho. Many of the callers were LDS -- and the basic thought put out by the host was whether or not an organization has the freedom to put up billboards like that and if that's okay. Everybody, including the LDS, agreed that any organization ought to have the freedom to do so. One LDS women was brave enough to share what Mormons believe. The show's host, familiar enough with Christianity, shared how that belief is much different than what the Bible teaches (Jesus as substitute) and the LDS lady said she had never heard that before. And that saddened me. So, I can see how shocking it can be for many Mormons when I state that Mormons aren't Christian.

Thank you for the opportunity to respond.

[Vance]

Greetings!

Nice of you to return. I was beginning to wonder if you ever would.

By the way, I just completed a series on one of my blogs entitled, "Are Mormons Christian?"

Been there. Read them. I remain unimpressed.

. . . differentiates Mormonism from Christianity.

Your continued exclusion of Mormonism from Christianity is obviously a false dichotomy. For you to continue this behavior causes you to lose credibility here.

I would say that BY Faith Alone we are saved, but faith is never alone. Does that make sense.

No! It doesn't. Faith without works is DEAD. So a faith that is "alone" is a DEAD faith, which is to say not a real faith at all.

That being said, if you let me define "faith" then I will define it in such a way that the phrase "we are saved by faith alone" will be true. Are you game?

[WalkerW]

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (John 17:3)

"Know" in this passage is the Greek ginosko, which implies an intimate relationship and knowledge (it was sometimes used as an idiom for sexual intercourse). The author John uses the same word in his first epistle:

And hereby we do know that we know [Christ], if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought to himself also so to walk, even as he walked. (1 John 2:3-6)

In order to know Christ, we must keep His commandments. This "knowing" brings about eternal life. In his Gospel, John quotes Christ on "abiding":

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father

[Vance]

Basically, its the vicarious work.

Really?

It surprises me that "vicarious work" would be an issue for a Christian. After all Christ VICARIOUSLY suffered for YOUR sins thus providing the possibility for your being saved.

This card isn't going to play well here.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Sure, I can elaborate without going into details. Basically, its the vicarious work. To briefly summarize, Biblical Christianity teaches that once a person is dead, they are dead.

Good thing it is safe to ignore you as what you have just taught is not found in the bible. WEre does it "teach that once a person is dead, they are dead.

If that is the case how could Christ preach to the spirits in prison? Spirits denotes that they are not alive. Why would Christ be preasching to the spirits in prison if they had thier chance?