Parable of Sheep and Goats and salvation requirements

[volgadon]

Thank you for revealing your ignorance of ancient Judaism. Those ideas did not originate with Jesus, but were in fact part of the Hillelite school.

[volgadon]

Of course I don't mean that he wasn't the ultimate source, but those ideas were being taught before his earthly ministry.

[Echo]

CFR.

And CFR on repentance being God's working of the law within us, or whatever it was you said.

Isaiah 8:20 "To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn."

>>>>>>>>>>>

Mathew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them"

How could Jesus fulfill the law if it wasn't written in it's entirety already?

>>>>>>>>>>>>

Romans 6:14 "For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace."

Why do we need more law? We are no longer under law.

>>>>>>>>>>

Romans 7:4 "⁴So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ,"

Why do we need more law? we died to the law

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Romans 10:14 "Christ is the end of the law ..."

Galatians 3:19 "What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.

Galatians 3:24 "So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith" Christ has come.

Galatians 3:25 "Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law."

Ephesians 2:15 "by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.

1 Timothy 1:9 "We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,..."

CFR on repentance being God's work in us through the law is here:

Romans 7:7-10 "⁷What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."^[b]8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. ⁹Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. ¹⁰I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

Galatians 3:23-25 "²³Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. ²⁴So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ^[a] that we might be justified by faith. ²⁵Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Luke 5:32 "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance"

Romans 2:4 "Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

2 Corinthians 7:9 "yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us."

2 Timothy 2:25 "Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,"

[Echo]

BTW nice dodge on my question about god and further commandments.

I wasn't finished responding to all your posts. I have answered it now.

[Echo]

Thank you for revealing your ignorance of ancient Judaism. Those ideas did not originate with Jesus, but were in fact part of the Hillelite school.

I assure you that it is you that is ignorant of ancient Judaism. Read the Bible instead of listening to your teachers who appose the bible.

[Echo]

Of course I don't mean that he wasn't the ultimate source, but those ideas were being taught before his earthly ministry.

What are you refering to?

[Facsimile 3]

What are you refering to?

Jesus Christ - Jehovah

[Doctor Steuss]

I don't believe my definition is fundamentally flawed. I think you have been taken to the cleaners on your definition.

By whom? From what I've seen, Walker has provided evidence of the meaning of the Greek words in the time and culture in which they were purportedly penned.

In response, I

[Vance]

NO. That is not what I am saying. I am saying that they believed they had to follow the law IN ORDER TO GAIN SALVATION and FORGIVENESS. Jesus needed to show them how hypocritical they truly were. The law demands the impossible of us because the law actually reveals what God is like and we are not like God because of our sin.

As always, the law always demands perfection and we aren't perfect. Jesus needed to show them how futile their attempts to gain salvation through obedience was.

Acts 10:34

[Vance]

I am arguing that God has already given us all his commandments. . . .

And His giving them to us was a grace!

[volgadon]

I wasn't finished responding to all your posts. I have answered it now.

You have not answered my question. Lets make it simple.

If our claim to having a living prophet who is God's spokesman, is God not allowed to give any further commandments? Yes or no.

After you say yes or no you can expand on your answer.

[volgadon]

I assure you that it is you that is ignorant of ancient Judaism. Read the Bible instead of listening to your teachers who appose the bible.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA this is a classic! I'm making it my new sig.

[volgadon]

Mathew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them"

How could Jesus fulfill the law if it wasn't written in it's entirety already?

You are funny. The Law and the Prophets are two of the three divisions of the Old Testament, as they are called in Judaism. The Law is the Torah, the Pentateuch. So Christ here speaks of fulfilling prophecies, not that all laws and commandments were given.

[Flyonthewall]

God's law demands perfection. Since we aren't perfect, God's law only reveals our sin and thus our inability to do something for our salvation. The law condemns men to Hell "2 Corinthians 3:9 "If the ministry that condemns men is glorious..."

Romans 3:20 "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin"

The Holy Spirit, through God's law (that requires perfection of us), reveals to us the wrath of God that is against us because of our sins:

Romans 3:5 "But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us?"

That dread, that despair, that regret, that sorrow, is repentance. That repentance with those thoughts and feelings are caused by the Holy Spirit working in us through God's law.

The law requires perfection and nothing short of it. Since we aren't perfect, God's law convicts us and robs us of PEACE and hope because it only reveals our unrighteousness. Nobody is righteous unless they are perfect. The unrighteous reap outer darkness as their deserved reward.

However the Gospel reveals something else, it reveals a righteousness FROM GOD that comes to us through faith and not through the law. In Christ, all our sins have been forgiven and we are credited with Christ's perfection. Robed in his righteousness.

Repentance therefore is God's work in us through his law and gospel, it is not our work.

You cite Romans 3 and draw conclusions different than what is in the Bible. Romans is talking about the Jew and Gentile, and how there is no advantage between the two. The Jews were trumpeting their status as God's chosen people because they had the Law of Moses. Paul was teaching them that the deeds of the Law of Moses would not bring salvation. All of Romans is speaking about the works and deeds of the Law of Moses, not about the deeds and works of teachings of Christ. Verse 28 has the conclusion: "28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.". Again, "deeds of the law" are the deeds of the Law of Moses. The deeds of faith and grace are: Repentance, baptism, receive the Holy Ghost, keep the commandments.

I think you missed the scripture. It says "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out...". Add to this: "Luke 3: 8

8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.". Is John telling God to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance? No. He is telling the individual to bring forth fruit. God has no need of repentance, we do. Repentance is not God's work, it is ours. God's part is forgiveness.

What the gospel reveals is that the grace of God enables our actions to mean something. Salvation comes through the grace of Christ as we follow His teachings and obey His commandments.

You are saying Christ's ministry, His teachings, and the commandments are meaningless. There is nothing to them, as we need not follow nor obey them, and still we receive salvation. We do nothing, God does everything.

Romans 2:6 states that God will render to every man according to their deeds. What will He render then? Salvation, according to you, is already obtained, is there something more than salvation?

If, as you imply, God does all the work, how then will we be judged by our own works?

Very simply, we are saved by grace through faith. Right there it says that grace is not alone. Do you believe dead faith will allow grace to save? If you believe works are a product of salvation, then works were not present for salvation, and you state that dead faith is all we need.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Christ alone has done everything necessary for salvation. God does all the work of bringing people to faith in Christ's completed work. Men can resist God's work.

Tell me, how does one resist God's work? By conintuing to sin?? Well there is nothing I can do about that, right?

Again I cannot find one verse of scripture that tells us that God has unconditionally forgiven us of our sins. Reconcile does not mean unconditional.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I am arguing that God has already given us all his commandments. Jesus chastised the pharisees for adding to his fully revealled law.

Were is this doctrine taught in the bible? I am not familiar with any such verse, or even a verse that could be construed as such. I would think that if such a doctrine exsisted it would need to be in the bible.

[Zakuska]

Neither does the LDS! The Isrealites believed in faith and works. Faith in God and works. They believed in God and they believed that works were a condition to salvation.

The LDS do NOT put faith in Jesus either. Jesus forgave us! The LDS doesn't believe this! They do NOT have faith in this which means they do not have faith in Jesus. The LDS believes the same thing the Isrealites who were blinded believe.

Wrong once again. Mormons beleive in Paul's complete formula for salvation.

Eph 2

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Salvation = grace THROUGH faith FOR works (not by them)

Christians formula for salvation cuts the formula short.

Salvation = grace

John 6:27-29 "Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.

Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Do you really "believe in the one he has sent" if you do not keep his commandments?

The answer is NO, and once again you plug your ears and tell Jesus to shut up.

John 14: 12

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Christians like yourself don't beleive Jesus when he says that we will do greater works than even he did. Mormons on the other hand do.

[volgadon]

From the Babylonian Talmud, t. Yoma, 29a (in the Soncino translation 29b).

Contemplating sin is worse than commiting it. The sign is that of the odour of rotted meat, which is worse than even eating it.

Sin in this context is specifically sexual sin, IE, thinking unchaste thoughts. That is also how Soncino translates it.

[Zakuska]

If we are already forgiven, then the Apostles wasted their time and effort.

Acts 3:19

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA this is a classic! I'm making it my new sig.

Whoa, I am truley dumbfounded. Yes, you seem to be ignorant of your own heritage.

It is about as classic as Markk telling me that I don'tseem to understand mormonism very well.

[WalkerW]

I'm really late, but considering Echo hasn't made an attempt to address the client-patron system, I find it pointless.

I don't believe my definition is fundamentally flawed.

Well, there are facts as they are and the truth as you see it. I'll go with the former.

I think you have been taken to the cleaners on your definition.

Grace isn't reciprocal because...Echo says so and continues to read the New Testament with a presuppositional definition. Cleaners indeed!

[WalkerW]

Naturally. Evangelical, theological assertions top serious historical, cultural and philological research any day of the week........

Guess we learn something new every day, don't we, Walker?

We sure do.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I'm really late, but considering Echo hasn't made an attempt to address the client-patron system, I find it pointless.

Well, there are facts as they are and the truth as you see it. I'll go with the former.

Grace isn't reciprocal because...Echo says so and continues to read the New Testament with a presuppositional definition. Cleaners indeed!

Well I was trying to get Echo to tell us were in the bible this is taught and he gave a scripture that says nothing about grace isn't reciprocal. I call that reading into the text that which is not there. 2Cor 5:19 only states that Christ is the reason or the mechanism were with the world would be or could be reconciled to God, not that Grace is given unconditional. And we don't or can't do antyhing and that God expects nothing from us. Which ironically he claims that we just need to accept it. Isn't accpeting it doing something?

[Zakuska]

Ephesians 2:8-9 "⁸For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith

[Vance]

Well I was trying to get Echo to tell us were in the bible this is taught and he gave a scripture that says nothing about grace isn't reciprocal. I call that reading into the text that which is not there. 2Cor 5:19 only states that Christ is the reason or the mechanism were with the world would be or could be reconciled to God, not that Grace is given unconditional. And we don't or can't do antyhing and that God expects nothing from us. Which ironically he claims that we just need to accept it. Isn't accpeting it doing something?

Not only that, but in the very NEXT VERSE it says; 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ