Parable of Sheep and Goats and salvation requirements

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So, I can see how shocking it can be for many Mormons when I state that Mormons aren't Christian.

Thank you for the opportunity to respond.

ACtually what is shocking is the amount of ignorance invovled to claim such.

Tell me, do Elephants (LDS) have more in common with mammals(Christian) or do wolves(Evangelical) have more in common with mammals(Chrsitians)?

Really what it boils down to here is that you think we have to beleive things the way you think they are, calling it "biblical Christianity". However I canno't find a requirement to believe a certain way in the bible to be called a Christian. A Christian is any one who claims that Jesus is the Son of God and beleive he is their Savior. It is not a requirement to believe in the trinity or the God of teh creeds.

[Vance]

Yes, that is a reasonable CFR request. In talking with many fellow Christians, that has been our experience and observation.

Well that doesn't really fulfill the CFR. The ignorance of history of your "many fellow Christians" isn't evidence of anything other than their ignorance. You will need to provide more than this to fulfill this CFR.

Note: ignorance means lack of knowledge, not lack of intelligence.

Edited to add one Echo of respect.

Edited again to add. (From http://en.fairmormon.org/Latter-day_Saints_aren%27t_Christians#Saints_claim_to_be_Christian_only_recently )

This claim is absurd. The critics depend on their audience not knowing much about LDS history for this claim. Enemies and members of the Church have long known that Church members consider themselves "Christian" (italics added in all cases):

1830s

1830

[Tanyan]

Hi Tanyan. Your statement certainly sounds Christian. However, I think you will find that we have a much different definitions of grace and what it is. I can tell when you close "In His Debt". To what you believe, what is the definition of grace. And I think you will a large difference.

I can see you call yourself the LDS Jedi Knight. I guess that would place me as the Christian Darth Vader? Minus the heavy breathing.

Agape greetings merganzerman, thanks for the reply and me "sounding Christian" in my statement. Definitions of Grace and Faith would be very fruitfull in there use by the Anchient Early Israelites/Christians as found in scripture and LDS usage being found as the same as they. I have seen EV Christians use the final closeout of a letter using the phrase - " In His Debt/Grace". Yes I am a LDS JEDI KNIGHT, as for you I am not ready to title you as of yet.

I am a former Methodist [as an infant/child], Fundamentalist Independant Baptist [as a young teenager], LDS as a older teenager to present. I have friends that are Priests - Ministers - Pastors of Roman Catholic Orthodoxy/Coptic Egyptian Catholic Orthodoxy/Greek Catholic Orthodoxy, Protestant , Reformed, Non traditional Christian, Non Christian of which I have attended there Church services, Bible studies [ Went to a Baptist Bible study last night], and other events.

Must go for a few hours, will continue this later. May Grace Shine/Rain on you this day.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[merganzerman]

Really?

It surprises me that "vicarious work" would be an issue for a Christian. After all Christ VICARIOUSLY suffered for YOUR sins thus providing the possibility for your being saved.

This card isn't going to play well here.

First of all, Vance, thanks for visiting the hishealingnow blog on wordpress. I thought that was you. I also appreciated your comments. In fact, because of your visit, helped prompt me to come back to this site.

In regards to vicarious -- Jesus died and rose again for the living, not for the dead. He was vicarious in that his death on the cross served as our substitute -- and we have up until our appointed time on earth, to either believe or reject.

[merganzerman]

Good thing it is safe to ignore you as what you have just taught is not found in the bible. WEre does it "teach that once a person is dead, they are dead.

If that is the case how could Christ preach to the spirits in prison? Spirits denotes that they are not alive. Why would Christ be preasching to the spirits in prison if they had thier chance?

Good questions -- The Bible alludes to the fact that a person does not receive second chances -- and I'm specifically referring to a physical death. So as we are united on earth in body and spirit, we receive the opportunity to be saved through faith by trusting in Christ's substition on the cross for our sins.

I'm not familiar with any scriptures in the Bible where Jesus is preaching to the spirits in prison. Could you share that with me?

[merganzerman]

Well that doesn't really fulfill the CFR. The ignorance of history of your "many fellow Christians" isn't evidence of anything other than their ignorance. You will need to provide more than this to fulfill this CFR.

Note: ignorance means lack of knowledge, not lack of intelligence.

Edited to add one Echo of respect.

Edited again to add. (From http://en.fairmormon...n_only_recently )

This claim is absurd. The critics depend on their audience not knowing much about LDS history for this claim. Enemies and members of the Church have long known that Church members consider themselves "Christian" (italics added in all cases):

1830s

1830

[Vance]

In regards to vicarious -- Jesus died and rose again for the living, not for the dead.

Are you serious?

He died and rose for all who have lived, now live, will yet live. So yes He died and rose for both the living and the dead.

[Vance]

Sorry, Vance --- I wish I could just respond without including your post -- but I haven't learned how to do that yet.

You can delete portions of the quote to which you are replying.

I guess to clarify my point is that the LDS church had typically refrained from participating or be identified with any (non LDS) Christian group, activity or any other sort of thing until recently.

Just another statement without basis in fact nor history. From the beginning LDS leaders were willing to work with any group in the furtherance of a good cause. The leadership has even allowed the use of our facilities by other religious groups when in need.

So again, ignorance of this fact doesn't make your assertion so.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Good questions -- The Bible alludes to the fact that a person does not receive second chances -- and I'm specifically referring to a physical death. So as we are united on earth in body and spirit, we receive the opportunity to be saved through faith by trusting in Christ's substition on the cross for our sins.

I'm not familiar with any scriptures in the Bible where Jesus is preaching to the spirits in prison. Could you share that with me?

I am happy to oblige.

1Pet3:18-20

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

I don't think I even need to try and break this down.

[Vance]

I am happy to oblige.

1Pet3:18-20

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

I don't think I even need to try and break this down.

I'm not familiar with any scriptures in the Bible where Jesus is preaching to the spirits in prison. Could you share that with me?

That you are unfamiliar with these verses would not be an issue in and of itself. HOWEVER, these verses are often used by LDS in support of our doctrine. The fact that you are spending great effort to fight against us and our doctrine AND remain unfamiliar with these verses really is a travesty.

If you spent more effort getting to understand the Biblical support for our doctrine and less effort on just being anti you would benefit greatly, whether you accepted our doctrine or not.

Edited to add; because Mola is involved, I hereby add 2 Echos of respect.

[Zakuska]

I am happy to oblige.

1Pet3:18-20

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

I don't think I even need to try and break this down.

And to drive the excellent point even further home...

John 5

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Christ is here elluding to and forshadowing his decent into Hades. (spirit prison)

Paul also bares witness to the fact...

Eph 4

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

So we have Peter, Paul, John and Jesus all telling us about preaching to the dead spirits in Sprit Prison.

How is all this preaching going to do them any good...

1 Cor 15

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

If they cannot hear and accept it?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

And to drive the point further home...

John 5

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I would like to ask merganzerman were you got teh idea that when you were dead, that that was it. Or to use your words "Biblical Christianity teaches that once a person is dead, they are dead."

Just curious.

Do you conceed that Jesus did indeed preach to the spirits in prision?

What do you make of it, merganzerman?

[Tanyan]

I would like to ask merganzerman were you got teh idea that when you were dead, that that was it. Or to use your words "Biblical Christianity teaches that once a person is dead, they are dead."

Just curious.

Do you conceed that Jesus did indeed preach to the spirits in prision?

What do you make of it, merganzerman?

Perhaps merganzerman believes in "Soul sleep" as do some other Christian denominations and the JW.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Vance]

Perhaps merganzerman believes in "Soul sleep" as do some other Christian denominations and the JW.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Soul sleep? Never heard of it. I can't find "soul sleep" (or any verse that has both "soul" and "sleep") in the Bible. Does that make it a non-Biblical doctrine?

[Tanyan]

Soul sleep? Never heard of it. I can't find "soul sleep" (or any verse that has both "soul" and "sleep") in the Bible. Does that make it a non-Biblical doctrine?

Some do find soul sleep in the bible [JW and other non LDS Christian groups]. According to a majority of Christians it is a non Biblical concept.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[merganzerman]

Are you serious?

He died and rose for all who have lived, now live, will yet live. So yes He died and rose for both the living and the dead.

Yes, Jesus rose for both the living and the dead. He died for all people living on earth, and he died for those people who physically died with faith.

[Tanyan]

Yes, Jesus rose for both the living and the dead. He died for all people living on earth, and he died for those people who physically died with faith.

Yes all those that have never heard the name of Jesus Christ [past/presant/future] much less what he did for them and have/can/will respond because they know not burn in hell .

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[merganzerman]

I am happy to oblige.

1Pet3:18-20

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

I don't think I even need to try and break this down.

Ah, yes. I had forgotten about these passages in Scripture. My embarassing mistake. And thanks for sharing that with me.

I did some study on this to give you the proper Christian interpretation on the passages and there isn't a 100% agreement. In fact, I found three main interpretations. (For more information on Christian interpretation, I would advise you check out the NIV Study Bible -- which I'm using in this case. I think its the best translation from the original Greek.) The key element here is the Holy Spirit. The Spirit was involved both in Christ's resurrection and his descent into hell -- and it seems Christ's descent occurred before His resurrection. His descent into hell in spirit was to proclaim his vitory to the spirits in prison -- both human and demonic spirits, whose torment had already begun. Jesus did what victorious generals often do -- bot to the enemy's capital and raise the flag of the conqueror. Jesus' preaching was not for the purpose of giving the damned, those who had been sentenced to hell, a second chance at repentance, but simply to proclaim his victory.

If I may go a step further in regards to these verses, especially v. 18. This verse is a great proclamation of the Christian gospel.

a. Christ died for sins

These words acknowledge our evil, our problem, our guilt. Jesus death was our solution for sin. And the solution points us to what someone else has done for us, on our behalf, in our place. It reminds us that our need is very severer, but solution is even greater -- the death of the God-man, Jesus Christ.

b. Hath once

In the NIV translation, it says "once for all". The word "once" or "once for all" proclaims the finality of Christ's words on the cross where He says, "It is finished" (John 19:30). The work has been done. It is finished. And even though we continue to sin in our lives, Christ's "one" act covers all sins for all people.

c. the just for the unjust.

I like the translation, "the righteous for the unrighteous". This is the heart of the Christian gospel. A substitution was made for our behalf. The Father placed the plame for the sins of the world upon a just substitute and then had him executed in our place -- the unjust. The severity of the punishment upon Jesus signifies at the same time the greatness of the mercy upon us who believe this to be true.

d. that he might bring us to God

We cannot bring ourselves up to God and place our works before God's feet so we can be declared righteous or just. Christ, the just, brings us to God and presents himself, the perfect sacrifice, to take our place. So, instead of seeing us, God sees the perfect Savior as declares us not guilty, just and perfect.

Thanks for allowing me to share this. I have to sign off for now and hope to see all of your replies tomorrow.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Ah, yes. I had forgotten about these passages in Scripture. My embarassing mistake. And thanks for sharing that with me.

I did some study on this to give you the proper Christian interpretation on the passages and there isn't a 100% agreement. In fact, I found three main interpretations. (For more information on Christian interpretation, I would advise you check out the NIV Study Bible -- which I'm using in this case. I think its the best translation from the original Greek.) The key element here is the Holy Spirit. The Spirit was involved both in Christ's resurrection and his descent into hell -- and it seems Christ's descent occurred before His resurrection. His descent into hell in spirit was to proclaim his vitory to the spirits in prison -- both human and demonic spirits, whose torment had already begun. Jesus did what victorious generals often do -- bot to the enemy's capital and raise the flag of the conqueror. Jesus' preaching was not for the purpose of giving the damned, those who had been sentenced to hell, a second chance at repentance, but simply to proclaim his victory.

Can you stop with the "I will give you the Christian interpretation". It does not help your cause. The LDS interpretation is just as "Christian" as your interpretation as we are Christians.

Any way moving on. I cannot find any were in the bible were it says the reason that Christ went to them was to "proclaim his vitory to the spirits in prison". I think that is just you making things up. If you'll notice that Christ preached to them. Why use the word preach? Oh and I don't believe in 2nd chances either. What we beleive is that those that have never had a chance to hear of Jesus or about Jesus will have that chance in prison. What about the guy in outer Mongolia living in 400 B.C? Does he just go to hell because he never had the chance to hear of Jesus? Jesus went to preach to those spirits in prison, those spirits were the put back in the day of Noah, and no were does the text say they were demons.

[Zakuska]

=merganzerman:

I did some study on this to give you the proper Christian interpretation on the passages and there isn't a 100% agreement. In fact, I found three main interpretations. (For more information on Christian interpretation, I would advise you check out the NIV Study Bible -- which I'm using in this case. I think its the best translation from the original Greek.) The key element here is the Holy Spirit. The Spirit was involved both in Christ's resurrection and his descent into hell -- and it seems Christ's descent occurred before His resurrection. His descent into hell in spirit was to proclaim his vitory to the spirits in prison -- both human and demonic spirits, whose torment had already begun. Jesus did what victorious generals often do -- bot to the enemy's capital and raise the flag of the conqueror. Jesus' preaching was not for the purpose of giving the damned, those who had been sentenced to hell, a second chance at repentance, but simply to proclaim his victory.

This is a modern mis-intepretation. The original Christians. Those of the 1st -3rd Centuries, disagree with it. So no there is not 100% agreement, contrary to your bald assertion of "fact". Those who were taught by the Apostles of Jesus interpeted that the Gospel was indeed preached in the bowels of the Earth to those who had never heard of jesus while in their Mortal Life and the Apostles then administered to them the ordinances by proxy. JUST AS THE LDS TEACH.

The Early Christians on the Preaching Mission

We will find that the early Christian writers held no such narrow view, insisting that the gospel had to be preached to the spirits in prison. And they did not stop at the pitifully small amount of information Peter gave. They preached a doctrine remarkably similar to the Latter-day Saint belief that the gospel was not only preached by Christ in the spirit world, but by His disciples, as well, after they died.

Justin Martyr and Clement of Alexandria insisted that it wouldn't be right for God to condemn those who hadn't heard the gospel:

Since those who did that which is universally, naturally, and eternally good are pleasing to God, they shall be saved through this Christ in the resurrection equally with those righteous men who were before them, namely Noah, and Enoch, and Jacob, and whoever else there be, along with those who have known this Christ, Son of God . . . .137

For it is not right that these should be condemned without trial, and that those alone who lived after the advent should have the advantage of the divine righteousness. But to all rational souls it was said from above, "Whatever one of you has done in ignorance, without clearly knowing God, if, on becoming conscious, he repent, all his sins will be forgiven him."138

And Peter, in the Clementine Recognitions, derided the God of Simon Magus because he could only save those who knew of Him!

Then said Peter [to Simon Magus]: "He saves adulterers and men-slayers, if they know him; but good, and sober, an merciful persons, if they do not know him, in consequence of their having no information concerning him, he does not save! Great and good truly is he whom you proclaim, who is not so much the saviour of the evil, as he is one who shows no mercy to the good."139

If the definition of eternal life is to "know . . . the only true God, and Jesus Christ" (John 17:3), how can those who have not even heard of them be saved? Paul had the answer when he said that "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17) The only answer consistent with an all-loving and merciful God is that the gospel has to be preached to those who have not been given the chance to accept Christ in mortality. Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Hermas all testified of the fact that Jesus did, indeed, preach to the spirits in prison, some even claiming that the departed disciples of Jesus continued the preaching work:

It was for this reason, too, that the Lord descended into the regions beneath the earth, preaching His advent there also, and [declaring] the remission of sins received by those who believe in Him. Now all those believed in Him who had hope towards Him, that is, those who proclaimed His advent, and submitted to His dispensations, the righteous men, the prophets, and the patriarchs, to whom He remitted sins in the same way as He did to us, which sins we should not lay to their charge, if we would not despise the grace of God. For as these men did not impute unto us (the Gentiles) our transgressions, which we wrought before Christ was manifested among us, so also it is not right that we should lay blame upon those who sinned before Christ's coming.140

And it has been shown also, in the second book of the Stromata, that the Apostles, following the Lord, preached the Gospel to those in Hades . . . . For it was suitable to the divine administration, that those possessed of greater worth in righteousness, and whose life had been pre-eminent, on repenting of their transgressions, though found in another place, yet being confessedly of the number of the people of God Almighty, should be saved, each one according to his individual knowledge . . . . If, then, the Lord descended to Hades for no other end but to preach the Gospel, as He did descend; it was either to preach the Gospel to all or to the Hebrews only. If, accordingly, to all, then all who believe shall be saved, although they may be of the Gentiles, on making their profession there . . . .141

When He became a soul, without the covering of the body, He dwelt among those souls which were without bodily covering, converting such of them as were willing to Himself, or those whom He saw, for reasons known to Him alone, to be better adapted to such a course.142

These Apostles and teachers who preached the name of the Son of God, after falling asleep in the power and faith of the Son of God, preached it not only to those who were asleep, but themselves also gave them the seal of the preaching. Accordingly they descended with them into the water, and again ascended.143

This belief in Christ's preaching mission to the dead was not some incidental folk belief, but a central part of the Christian message. It was so central, in fact, that Justin Martyr accused the Jews of having removed a passage from Jeremiah about the descent and preaching to weaken the scriptural support for Christianity.

Here Trypho remarked, "We ask you first of all to tell us some of the Scriptures which you allege have been completely cancelled." [Justin quotes some passages which the Jews evidently removed from Esdras and Jeremiah.] And again, from the sayings of the same Jeremiah these have been cut out: 'The Lord God remembered His dead people of Israel who lay in the graves; and He descended to preach to them His own salvation.'144

The Odes of Solomon preserve a beautiful account of the preaching work of Christ to the dead. In one of the Odes the Savior says:

Sheol saw me and was made miserable: Death cast me up and many along with me. I had gall and bitterness, and I went down with him to the utmost of his depth . . . . And I made a congregation of living men amongst his dead men, and I spake with them by living lips: Because my word shall not be void: And those who had died ran towards me: and they cried and said, Son of God, have pity on us, and do with us according to thy kindness, and bring us out from the bonds of darkness: and open to us the door by which we shall come out to thee. For we see that our death has not touched thee. Let us also be redeemed with thee: for thou art our Redeemer. And I heard their voice; and my name I sealed upon their heads: For they are free men and they are mine.145

God is merciful and He is just. He doesn't save some and give others no opportunity to be saved. His hand goes out to all nations and all people at all times, and Jesus' atonement breaks the bands of death and hell, so that all mankind can choose Him, and live. This is the message of Christ's preaching mission to the dead, which mainstream Christianity has lost, and God has restored through Joseph Smith.

Baptism for the Dead

"Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." How does one reconcile Jesus' statement with the fact that the unbaptized dead can be saved in the kingdom of God? Joseph Smith had an answer that shocked the rest of Christianity--the living can be baptized as proxies for the dead. In this ordinance, one is baptized in behalf of a dead forbear, so that if that person decides to accept the gospel in the spirit world, the ordinance for the entrance into the kingdom of God will have been done for him.

Baptism for the Dead According to Paul

Paul mentioned this ordinance in passing as part of his argument for the reality of the resurrection: "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" (1 Corinthians 15:29) Commentators have long recognized that the plain meaning of the passage is that living people were being baptized for dead friends or relatives, but they usually try to get out of it by placing some other, more dubious interpretation on this verse. Thus Henry Halley:

This seems to mean vicarious baptism, that is, baptism for a dead friend. But there is no other Bible reference to such a practice, and no evidence that it existed in the Apostolic Church. Perhaps a better translation would be "baptized in hope of the resurrection.146

But Paul's statement itself is evidence that baptism for the dead existed in the Apostolic Church! The NIV Study Bible admits that, "The present tense suggests that at Corinth people were currently being baptized for the dead."147 And if "baptized for the dead" really means "baptized in hope of the resurrection," it is an idiom of which translators have no knowledge, or they would have used it to sidestep the obvious meaning of the passage.

Another popular argument is that "Paul mentions this custom almost in passing, using it in his arguments substantiating the resurrection of the dead, but without necessarily approving the practice."148 But why would Paul use some heretical practice in his arguments for the resurrection? Couldn't he find some more firm foundation for this all-important Christian doctrine? And if he mentioned it in passing, wouldn't that mean that his audience, the Corinthians, were thoroughly familiar with the practice and its implications?

A wide variety of such strange interpretations of this verse have been propagated over the centuries.149 The basic premise of all these arguments, however, is that since they have no more information concerning the practice, it must either be illegitimate, or the verse must be interpreted in some other way, because Christianity certainly couldn't have lost such an important practice. But the information concerning this strange doctrine has been lost, and it took a prophet to restore it. In a recent study of the verse in question, Richard DeMaris of Valparaiso University admits that despite dozens of proposed interpretations, "the reference itself is simply so obscure and our knowledge so limited that we cannot discern just what this rite actually involved or meant."150 However, his article makes it clear that such a rite did exist, even though he contends that it was probably confined to the area of Corinth.

Baptism in the Spirit World

Related to the practice of baptism for the dead is the idea that the spirits of the dead must be baptized in the spirit world after accepting the gospel there. According to Kirsopp Lake, "The idea that hearing the gospel and baptism is necessary for the salvation of the righteous dead of pre-Christian times is common . . . ."151 For example, the Pastor of Hermas related that the Apostles baptized the righteous dead after preaching to them:

"They were obliged," he answered, "to ascend through water in order that they might be made alive; for, unless they laid aside the deadness of their life, they could not in any other way enter into the kingdom of God. Accordingly, those also who fell asleep received the seal of the Son of God. For," he continued, "before a man bears the name of the Son of God he is dead; but when he receives the seal he lays aside his deadness, and obtains life. The seal, then, is the water: they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive.152

Jesus preached the same doctrine in the Epistle of the Apostles:

For to that end went I down unto the place of Lazarus, and preached unto the righteous and the prophets, that they might come out of the rest which is below and come up into that which is above; and I poured out upon them with my right hand the water [of] (baptism) . . . of life and forgiveness and salvation from all evil, as I have done unto you and unto them that believe on me.153

But if the dead receive their baptism in the world of spirits, why do they need vicarious baptism? Clement of Alexandria brought up an interesting point after quoting the passage from Hermas:

"They went down therefore into the water and again ascended . . . . But those who had fallen asleep, descended dead, but ascended alive . . . ." Then, too, the more subtle substance, the soul, could never receive any injury from the grosser element of water . . . .154

Of course you can't baptize a spirit in real water--such a physically oriented ordinance must be performed in mortality. Although not strictly an official doctrine, many Latter-day Saints believe that such ordinances must be performed in the spirit world to effectualize the ordinances performed vicariously in the world of the living. After all, a spirit must accept the ordinances done for him. For instance, in a report requested by the First Presidency of the LDS Church, Heber Q. Hale, president of the Boise stake, related that in a vision he had seen, "Ordinances [were] performed in the spirit world effectualizing in the individual recipients the same principles of the Gospel vicariously performed here."155

Indeed, the idea that spirits are baptized in the spirit world may be quite relevant to our case in light of what J.R. Porter calls "the well-known [Jewish] idea of the correspondence and the simultaneity of the earthly and heavenly ritual . . . ."156

here is a non-LDS source that agrees:

http://upetd.up.ac.z...issertation.pdf

[WalkerW]

This is a modern mis-intepretation. The original Christians. Those of the 1st -3rd Centuries, disagree with it. So no there is not 100% agreement, contrary to your bald assertion of "fact". Those who were taught by the Apostles of Jesus interpeted that the Gospel was indeed preached in the bowels of the Earth to those who had never heard of jesus while in their Mortal Life and the Apostles then administered to them the ordinances by proxy. JUST AS THE LDS TEACH.

here is a non-LDS source that agrees:

http://upetd.up.ac.z...issertation.pdf

Nice link. That is a good one.

[Vance]

Rather than go into detail with all of the things I find wrong with your "proper Christian interpretation", I will only address two issues.

b. Hath once

In the NIV translation, it says "once for all". The word "once" or "once for all" proclaims the finality of Christ's words on the cross where He says, "It is finished" (John 19:30). The work has been done. It is finished. And even though we continue to sin in our lives, Christ's "one" act covers all sins for all people.

No where in the Greek is the phrase "once for all" found. And it is only found once in the KJV with the "for all" italicized clearly indicating that the translators ADDED it.

That being said, Christ did only suffer once, and He did it for all, and His suffering for sin was finished on the Cross. However, He work was not completed on the cross nor was it completed when He said "it is finished". When He said that He had yet to;

1) die.

2) preach the gospel to the dead.

3) be resurrected.

4) minister to His followers for 40 days.

5) ascend into heaven.

6) guide His church through revelation to His appointed servants.

It is obvious that "it is finished" is specifically referring to the suffer for sin.

The works of Jesus continued after this statement and continue today. As is written in John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

This makes it very clear that Jesus is a very active being.

[merganzerman]

To follow up my response on the verses from 1 Peter, a passage was given taken from John 5:24-30.

Utilizing the NIV, a widely used and universally accepted translation from the Christian Church --

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, he has crossed over from death to life. I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out -- those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me."

Belief and life are interconnected. Those who belief in Jesus Christ receive eternal life. And what's neat is that the Greek verb form for "has" means its a present possession. Not only by faith do you receive an infinitely higher quality of life in living fellowship with God through Christ, but it also means forever. Also, please note that in that present possession, a believer has crossed over from death to life meaning a decisive action has taken place. A believer no longer belongs to death. Christ gives life now. All of us are born dead into sin. And the only way for us to have life is God rescuing us from death. Just as a dead person cannot bring himself back to life (except Jesus of course), only God can bring us back to life. So this is why we cannot save ourselves. Jesus, just by speaking to us through His Word, gives us his eternal life.

But there is more to come.

At an appointed hour only known by God, there will come a time that everything we know will come to an end and "all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out." What Jesus has done for believers spiritually, he will do for everyone, believers and non-believers, physically. The graves will open and the bodies will come forth physically alive. Those who have done good will rise to life with God forever and those who have done evil will rise for judgement and will be be condemened forever.

And the big question is, "How will Jesus measure the good?"

Doesn't that make you shudder that all of our eternity will res on this question? It's scary to think that all of eternity, with the risk of being in hell, rides on the good I've done, or the lack of, or perhaps the evil I have done? Then we read in Scripture, "There is no one who does good" (Romans 3:12-NIV). On the Last Day, when Jesus has identified those who have done good, they all will still ask, "When did we do these good things?" (Matt. 25:31-46).

The answer lies in what Jesus just said in this passage (v. 24) and will repeat again. Those who do good are those who hear God's Word and believe in the Father and the Son. There is nothing more added. No other works identified. Whatever believers do IN FAITH, God measures as good. In faith they receve eternal life and those who are faith-filled (faithful) are made evident by the good they do. The unbelievers, those works are all counted as evil, will be condemned.

So, on that Judgement Day, Jesus will judge the hearts of all mankind. And those who believe, and gave evidence of their faith in good works, will be in heaven. And I believe that everybody, on the last Day, when the reality of Christ stands before them, will say "I believe!". At that point in time, how can you not. Jesus is right there! And people will try to make their case by telling all the good they tried to do on earth. All the attempts they made to be worthy. And Jesus will say, "Go away, I never knew you!" Just like the Pharisees who attempted to be righteous by following the hundreds of commands to be holy, Jesus will condemn them. Why? They thought they could be righteous based on their own efforts. They saw and believed Jesus was a man, but did not know Jesus. Faith is recognizing who Jesus truly is. Not just to come and die for people sins, so that they have to pay back the debt, but died and rose again so that by His substitute, we are righteous. And our good works gives evidence of our faith, not that we have to earn anything, but the works are carried out in thanksgiving for what Christ has already done for us.

I can be 100% certain that on Judgement Day I will go to heaven? Why? Because my judgement does not rest on all the works I have done or not done, but my faith rests on the work Jesus already did for me. He will be standing in for me. I will be completely justified because of my faith. And the peace I have received as a result, is incomparable.

Thanks for reading. I have shared the essential truths of the Bible. Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.

I will be heading out of town to conduct a seminar and will not be able to reply until Monday. Have a good weekend.

[Vance]

<SNIP>

You sound more like you are preaching than discussing.

[Vance]

-- those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

You missed one of the most important points.