Parable of Sheep and Goats and salvation requirements

[Vance]

And to add to that:

Philip. 3: 12

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Added: A respectful high-five to Vance.

And here is the verse that M is paraphrasing.

Col. 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Notice the tense of the phrase "that we may present". It certainly expresses a future hope not a current condition.

Edited to add: high fives and 2 Echos of respect to Zak.

[Vance]

Oh and lest we get that NIV is the "Christian" Bible.

New International Version (

[Vance]

If Mormons desire to be called Christian, than it would certainly make sense for Mormons to accept the NIV Version of the Bible for it is widely used and universally accepted as a proper and correct translation of the original Greek texts.

Merganzerman, you need to check out this post, http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/47688-what-warranted-the-change/page__view__findpost__p__1208793476

Apparently the NIV isn't as pristine as you think.

[WalkerW]

Don't you love how he attempts to throw some kind of authority behind this particular translation by saying it is "widely used" and "universally accepted" by the "Christian Church"?

If Mormons desire to be called Christian, than it would certainly make sense for Mormons to accept the NIV Version of the Bible for it is widely used and universally accepted as a proper and correct translation of the original Greek texts.

But apparently not Hebrew, as I demonstrated.

[Vance]

If Mormons desire to be called Christian, than it would certainly make sense for Mormons to accept the NIV Version of the Bible for it is widely used and universally accepted as a proper and correct translation of the original Greek texts.

Do we even have "the original Greek texts"?

My understanding is that we don't have a single autograph of any of the books of the Bible, Greek or Hebrew.

[Tanyan]

Interesting. My NIV Study Bible does not have that quote. I think what this quote could say as it relates to the Scripture verse is that we need to take all of God's Word very seriously. Because narrow will be the door for those who reject Christ. And you will only receive one chance to enter it. Notice he doesn't talk about spirit prisons or anything else. But just one door. That is why Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life." We can't save ourselves and be made perfect based on our efforts. We have to be perfect, not become perfect. Yes, that will require effort to fully read the entire message of the gospels and consider what I'm saying to be true.

Interesting that the Bible I quoted from does have that quote . Yes we need to take ALL Of Gods Word seriously [No closed canon, In Practice the canon is closed, in theory however it is open]. Which Bible are we talking about ? - Roman Cattholic Orthodox Bible, Coptic Egyptian Catholic Orthodox Bible ?, Greek Catholic Orthodox Bible ?, Protestant Orthodox ?, Which One ?.WE MUST Agonize and strain every Spiritual/Temporal nerve that we can to get through the door to show that we want to Be and Stay Saved to enter through the Door/Gate into the Kingdom. True Faith [pistis] in Jesus Christ accesses/activates/makes alive The True Grace [charis] of Jesus Christ. From my understanding Be Perfect is present tense with an ongoing action in greek. It's like telling your child when they go out the front door to school you tell them "Be Brave", Start now and continue on.

Be Brave For Jesus Christ.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Tanyan]

I live close to The Anchient Biblical Manuscript Center in Claremont Ca. and was friends with the previous Director Mike Phelps who was a Baptist [ He put LDS in The Christian House] and I would have our Missionaries come over and talk with him for a zone activity in his office. He would give a 45 min-1hour talk with us. He stated that we only have approx 85% of the original of Scripture was the same in his opinion from reading the manuscripts themselves. Interesting.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[merganzerman]

I have had the opportunity to read the posts and if I applaud the Vance-Zakuska tag team and their self-congratuations in coming up with some good Bible verses for us to ponder. In all due respect to all the other LDS posters, I would like to target this particular one to perfection. As I stated in the previous day, being perfect in Christ is the definition of being a Christian. It is not becoming perfect, but to "be" perfect. As Matthew 5:48 states, "Be perfect, therefores, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (NIV) The standard for heaven is to be perfect.

Earlier, Vance and Zakuska listed several verses for consideration. In interpreting Scriptures, I like to use the historical-grammatical-scriptural approach. In other words, allow Scripture to interpret Scripture. The verses shared by the Vance-Zakusa tag team were Hebrews 5:8-9, Ephesians 4:12; Luke 13:32; Hebrews 6:1 and Phillippians 3:12 (one of my favorites).

Hebrews 5:8-9: "Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him..

I agree this is a great verse -- and gives us insight on the miracle of the incarnation -- God's Son taking on human form and suffers. Jesus has to be perfect in order to carry out God's plan to deal with our sins. Jesus became the author of our salvation (Heb. 2:10) by his perfection. His suffering was the cost and his obedience to go the cross as our perfect substitute was carried out during his time in the garden and the wilderness. And "for all who obey him" matches the thought of Christ's obedience when we see 1 John 3:22-23 explain, "We obey his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ." Faith is obedience to God.

Ephesians 4:12 talks about how God equips believers with spiritual gifts for the sole purpose of building up a body of believers. God calls on us to exercise our faith by doing so. These works gives evidence of an living and active faith, but does not justify us nor is a requirement for salvation. As I stated before, we are saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone.

Luke 13:32 reads, "He replied, "Go tell that fox, 'I will drive out demons and heal people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.'" (NIV) This is Jesus talking and he was referring that his life had a predetermined plan that would be carried out and no harm would come to him until his purpose was accomplished (see Luke 4:43 and 9:22). That third day was ofcourse, Christ's resurrection which is paramount to the Christian faith.

Hebrews 6:1 was a response to those Christians who were not taking steps of maturity in the faith. In fact, they had becoming spiritually sluggish and lazy which is a great danger for one can lose their faith. The only way to mature in the faith is by being in God's Word. Repentance is turning away from sin. And it is coupled with faith in God. "Acts that lead to death" reminds them of their former unbelief in that they were dead in their sins (Eph. 2:1) and deserving of the wages of sin (Rom 6:23) which was death. Faith alone saves but faith is never alone.

And Phil 3:12 -- I think you would agree with me that Paul is talking about how our Christian lives is all about growing in Christ. Our living for him ought to be a constant striving for perfection or holiness, with the goal and prize of eternal life always kept before our eyes of faith. Here is possibly where we differ then. We are sinners on earth corrupted by sin. On earth, we will never be perfect in our bodies. However, spiritually speaking, which is of the most importance, we have been made perfect because of Christ's sacrifice.

Consider Heb. 10:10 "And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

Also Heb 10:14 "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."

So those who have placed their trust in Christ, and his completed work on the cross, are striving to be holy in our condition of sinful flesh, to have a faith that is living and active by remaining in God's Word, since our status as believers has been secured by Christ. Since perfection is required for eternal salvation, Christ has made us perfect through His obedience and we are to remain diligent to keep that faith.

I hope I didn't sound preachy here, but sharing my intepretation of the Scriptures mentioned as it pertains to perfection. I think sharing my thoughts will serve for future understanding of where I'm coming from.

Thanks,

"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus , and you will be saved -- you and your household." Acts 16:31

[volgadon]

As I stated in the previous day, being perfect in Christ is the definition of being a Christian. It is not becoming perfect, but to "be" perfect. As Matthew 5:48 states, "Be perfect, therefores, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (NIV) The standard for heaven is to be perfect.

I don't get your hair-splitting over be and become. They are one and the same in Hebrew and in Aramaic as well, IIRC.

[Zakuska]

merganzerman:

Ephesians 4:12 talks about how God equips believers with spiritual gifts for the sole purpose of building up a body of believers. God calls on us to exercise our faith by doing so. These works gives evidence of an living and active faith, but does not justify us nor is a requirement for salvation. As I stated before, we are saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone.

James respecfully disagrees.

James 2

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Faith was made perfect by works... otherwise its not faith at all. When was Abraham called a "Friend of God"? When he first started following God or after the trial of his faith?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

James respecfully disagrees.

James 2

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Faith was made perfect by works... otherwise its not faith at all. When was Abraham called a "Friend of God"? When he first started following God or after the trial of his faith?

Not to mention the reason thi thread was started was to look at the Parable of the sheep and the goats. It is just absurd to claim that works play no part in salvation when there is very good scriptural evidence that works are just as important if not more important than just having faith. I can't find a single verse of scripture that tells us that works couples with faith are not required. Works by them self wont save you and there are a lot of refrences for that.

[Vance]

In interpreting Scriptures, I like to use the historical-grammatical-scriptural approach.

I like to use the inspiration of the Holy Ghost to interpret scripture.

It is not a surprise that a different approach would lead to different understandings.

Hebrews 5:8-9: "Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.

. . .

Jesus has to be perfect in order to carry out God's plan to deal with our sins. Jesus became the author of our salvation (Heb. 2:10) by his perfection.

But that is not what the verse actually says. You actually have it backwards. He became perfect through His suffering. He didn't NOT become perfect first and then suffered.

New International Version (

[merganzerman]

I don't get your hair-splitting over be and become. They are one and the same in Hebrew and in Aramaic as well, IIRC.

The New Testament was written in Greek and there is a sharp distinction between "be" and "becoming". In fact, I would even state that is such a significant difference, not a hair-splitting one, that it seperates what the Bible defines as saving faith. The difference is like a river cutting a swath between what Mormons believe to be true and what believers rely to be true if they trust what the Bible says to be true utilizing methods such as the historical-grammatical method of interpretation. In fact, in all honesty, if a person rests their salvation on "becoming" perfect and believe in that teaching, than they fall under the warning Jesus says of those who are swayed by a false gospel or false teaching. I would say that this difference is that important and why I'm sharing this with you now.

[merganzerman]

James respecfully disagrees.

James 2

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Faith was made perfect by works... otherwise its not faith at all. When was Abraham called a "Friend of God"? When he first started following God or after the trial of his faith?

Allow the whole body of Scripture to interpret Scripture. When you look at all the verses, and specifically the ones I mention above, it is difficult to make a doctrinal case on just one verse. I can give you many verses that state that a person is justified by faith -- but I will save that for another post -- and probably another thread.

[merganzerman]

I like to use the inspiration of the Holy Ghost to interpret scripture.

It is not a surprise that a different approach would lead to different understandings.

Hey Vance:

Hope you are having a good day. Thanks again for visiting my blog site.

I don't know how you can jump to your conclusions based on my post above. I think you have a tendency on just jumping on one or two lines of my post to support your conclusions without giving consideration to the whole body. That's the same tendency in interpreting Scripture. You really must utilize the whole body of Scripture to interpret Scripture instead of just focusing one verse to determine one's doctrine. That Scriptural cherry-picking. There is nothing worse than taking quotes out of context -- and I think you would agree with that if you have ever been interviewed for a newspaper.

And I think that allowing the Holy Spirit to guide one's interpretation would be quite difficult. What if you felt the Holy Spirit guide John Doe to believe one thing and Jane Smith says she was guided a completely opposite way. Who would be right? That is why I believe God's Word is the authority for it was inspired by God. God's Word is far more reliable than our feelings. That is why I trust in God's promises, not my feelings, to be true.

[Zakuska]

Allow the whole body of Scripture to interpret Scripture. When you look at all the verses, and specifically the ones I mention above, it is difficult to make a doctrinal case on just one verse. I can give you many verses that state that a person is justified by faith -- but I will save that for another post -- and probably another thread.

So what you are saying is God is speaking out of both sides of his mouth?

You are taking Pauls words and Trumping James with them. Was it not James in the Book of Acts who ordered Paul to go to the Temple and purify himself according to the customs of the Jews. IOW Paul took Orders from James. You prefer the words of the Servant over the Words of the master.

Of intrest... When Martin Luther read the book of James he wrote in the margins next to verse 24. "This is False"... which is exactly what you are saying. He wanted the book removed.

Well guess what... James is just as much "God breathed as anything Paul wrote.

[volgadon]

it is difficult to make a doctrinal case on just one verse.

That is what makes the grace-onliers so silly.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

That is what makes the grace-onliers so silly.

Eph 2:8-9 comes to mind.

[volgadon]

The New Testament was written in Greek and there is a sharp distinction between "be" and "becoming". In fact, I would even state that is such a significant difference, not a hair-splitting one, that it seperates what the Bible defines as saving faith. The difference is like a river cutting a swath between what Mormons believe to be true and what believers rely to be true if they trust what the Bible says to be true utilizing methods such as the historical-grammatical method of interpretation. In fact, in all honesty, if a person rests their salvation on "becoming" perfect and believe in that teaching, than they fall under the warning Jesus says of those who are swayed by a false gospel or false teaching. I would say that this difference is that important and why I'm sharing this with you now.

Don't drown in that river.

Be is imperative, thus it means become. Become perfect. Thank you for proving my point about hairsplitting and about NIV users.

[volgadon]

In interpreting Scriptures, I like to use the historical-grammatical-scriptural approach.

Then why don't you?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The New Testament was written in Greek and there is a sharp distinction between "be" and "becoming". In fact, I would even state that is such a significant difference, not a hair-splitting one, that it seperates what the Bible defines as saving faith.

Do you have a refernce for your assertion?

[Vance]

I don't know how you can jump to your conclusions based on my post above.

It is easy, I just let the scriptures speak for themselves and I don't try to force them to say something that they don't. Which is exactly what you are doing.

The scriptures were written by inspiration from God through the witness of the Holy Ghost. And to have the true understanding requires the witness of the Holy Ghost. As the scriptures say;

2 Pet 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

We also know that the Holy Ghost is given to them that obey God.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

It is apparent that you don't trust the witness of the Holy Ghost. I can understand that, if you don't have the witness of the Holy Ghost, you wouldn't trust it. After all you can't trust a source that you don't have.

However Jesus taught that, (John 15:26-27) "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning."

Notice that Jesus is saying that in addition to the witness of the Apostles, the Holy Spirit of truth would also be a witness.

This is reaffirmed here, (John 16:13-14) "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you."

And here,(John 14:26) "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

So based on (not one but several) scriptures, the Holy Ghost is more reliable for revealing the true meaning of scripture than your approach.

I think you have a tendency on just jumping on one or two lines of my post to support your conclusions without giving consideration to the whole body.

I got bored or I would have pointed out even more problems with your post.

If many parts of you post are based on error what can we conclude about the whole?

You really must utilize the whole body of Scripture to interpret Scripture instead of just focusing one verse to determine one's doctrine.

That is a strange comment coming from a group that ignores large portions of the teachings of Jesus and other scripture that contradict their doctrine.

Who says that you don't have a sense of irony?

There is nothing worse than taking quotes out of context --

Have you ever heard of "psychological projection"?

And I think that allowing the Holy Spirit to guide one's interpretation would be quite difficult.

That is because you haven't tried it.

What if you felt the Holy Spirit guide John Doe to believe one thing and Jane Smith says she was guided a completely opposite way. Who would be right?

At most, only one.

That is why I believe God's Word is the authority for it was inspired by God. God's Word is far more reliable than our feelings. That is why I trust in God's promises, not my feelings, to be true.

Actually, what you are trusting is your own ability to interpret scripture and not God's ability to help you get the true understanding. Nothing like putting your trust in the "arm of flesh".

Edited to add clarification and respect.

[volgadon]

Also, if (and by no means do Ii concede this to be so) there is such a sharp distinction in the Greek, how can you claim it to be the words of Christ, which were spoken in Hebrew or Aramaic, as there is no such distinction?

[Zakuska]

Yet another place were the NIV screws things up.

Heb 6 (KJV)

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Heb 6 (NIV)

1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God,

Here is the greek word:

teleiot?s G5047

1) perfection

a) the state of the more intelligent

b) moral and spiritual perfection

Its the same word different congugation here...

Heb 12

23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,

teleio? G5048

1) to make perfect, complete

a) to carry through completely, to accomplish, finish, bring to an end

2) to complete (perfect)

a) add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing full

b) to be found perfect

3) to bring to the end (goal) proposed

4) to accomplish

a) bring to a close or fulfilment by event

1) of the prophecies of the scriptures

[Vance]

That is what makes the grace-onliers so silly.