Parable of Sheep and Goats and salvation requirements

[Zakuska]

Mathew 15:9 "They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"

Luke 11:46 "Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them."

And what of "rules" taught by God and his Apostles?

1 Jn. 5: 3

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Paul agrees with John...

Romans 13

1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God

[Echo]

Considering I've provided scholarly articles that explain how the words were used, I'm not up for just taking your assertions on the definitions.

Concordances are compiled by scholars

[Zakuska]

Salvation = Grace through faith

And once saved, that salvation is the cause of being created in Christ Jesus unto good works that we should walk in them.

You can't have Faith without works.

James 2: 18, 20, 26

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

[volgadon]

Nor can you, as evidence by my new sig line. Such a thing as bearing false witness.

[Echo]

Besides this being continued assertion without evidence; a concordance

[Vance]

Salvation = Grace through faith

So what happened to "grace alone"? Have you dropped that drivel? I hope so.

And once saved, that salvation is the cause of being created in Christ Jesus unto good works that we should walk in them.

So we have to wait until we are dead before we do the good works? We aren't saved until after death, we have to endure to the end before we are saved.

It's your ears that are all plugged up because you don't hear or listen to what I say and that is what led to your persecuting words of "you...tell Jesus to shut up. Pharisees didn't listen either.

Have you ever heard of "psychological projection"? This is a prime example.

Of course, I have yet to see a Mormon here perform any good works let alone greater works than even he did because all your sins. The hypocrisy of a faith in obedience to God's commandments that is not being carried out is very obvious to me.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't going on. After all you have clearly demonstrated the ability to be willfully blind.

One Echo of respect added just for good measure.

[Zakuska]

Once again your deaf ears don't hear anything I say. I see no point in responding to your posts any longer since your ears are deaf. But I will say this one last thing....We do believe Jesus when he say that we will do greater works than even he did and IF YOU WERE LISTENING, you might hear about it.

Of course, I have yet to see a Mormon here perform any good works let alone greater works than even he did because all your sins. The hypocrisy of a faith in obedience to God's commandments that is not being carried out is very obvious to me.

Translation... when you can't beat them call them names. Stick your fingers in your ears and say NA NA NA NA hoping no one will notice.

PS. Every time a Mormon goes to the Temple they reach into the Abyss and pull a soul out of the clutches of the darkness.

[Echo]

CFR on living prophets being unbiblical. It is very biblical, in fact, what do you think the Bible is if not a record of prophets?

Hebrews 1:1-2 "¹In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, ²but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son"

You follow a living prophet, a man. We follow Jesus, he is our prophet, he is God. Jesus is our living prophet. He is the end of all other living prophets.

So what you are really saying is that no, God cannot give any further commandments. A little arrogant and presumptious on your part, isn't it?

The persecuting comments you make only solidify my position.

I am neither arrogant or presumptious to trust in what God's word has to say on the matter. Jesus is the END of the law. Those who don't have Jesus need the law just as the LDS needs the law because the law isn't for the righteous it is for lawbreakers such as yourself and others here:

1 Tomothy 1:9 "We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,"

Romans 4:15 "because law brings wrath..."

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You can listen or you can refuse to listen

So tell me, how is not listening not a work? Faith isn't even required to listen.

It sure does mean unconditional because he reconciled the whole world not counting mens sins against them. He didn't just reconcile those who met conditions. The verse clearly says he reconciled the whole world to himself.

The sinful man in all of us would like nothing better than to think there must be conditions we must meet or can meet. The root of that is pride. Humility recognizes our utter inablity to meet the conditions.

But there are conditions, you just said I had to listen, are you going back on your interpretation now?

[Flyonthewall]

You havn't been reading the thread so I am likewise not going to waste time answering you with too much effort and time. If a horse is salvation then works are the cart being pulled by the horse. We are discussing the horse and not the cart. Works have no place in the discussion of how we are saved(horse) That comes later.

I have been following the thread. The horse and cart scenario you bring up doesn't reflect anything but your own assertions. The Bible states that we are saved by grace through faith. The scriptures also state that faith without works is dead. You insist that works are a product of salvation, or that salvation comes first, then and only then come works. You are insisting that faith and works are separate. You are insisting that we must have dead faith for salvation.

Will you continue to assert that dead faith is what is required for grace?

This is a simple question, so you will not need to spend a lot of time and effort to answer it.

[Echo]

Doesn't say how,

He was tortured on a cross, that is how.

nor does it preclude conditions. Don't you think such an important doctrine would be stated clearly in God's word?

It is, but the deaf and blind can't see it.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Very obviously you cannot keep the commandments.

I don't have to keep the commandments per your new doctrine. That would be doing something and you said there was not condition to being saved. Those are your very words. Now you claim we must.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mathew 15:9 "They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"

Luke 11:46 "Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them."

Stop being obtuse. I asked you for a biblical scripture that states that we don't need anything but the bible. You do realise that the word bible is not even found in the bible. Your doctrine of "Sola Scirptura" is false as it is not found in the bible. Sola Sciptura meaning that only the bible is the word of God and nothing more than the bible is needed.

[Vance]

We follow Jesus, he is our prophet, he is God. Jesus is our living prophet.

This is clearly false, you have clearly ignored the words of Jesus and place your misinterpreted words of Paul preeminent over the clear and plain words of Jesus. I have quoted many declarations of Jesus that you totally ignore.

He is the end of all other living prophets.

This is easily proven FALSE! (Using the Bible of course).

[Echo]

Will you continue to assert that dead faith is what is required for grace?

This isn't what I am asserting.

Grace is required to produce faith in us. A salvation of grace alone produces faith.

That faith then goes on to do good works.

[Echo]

I don't have to keep the commandments per your new doctrine. That would be doing something and you said there was not condition to being saved. Those are your very words. Now you claim we must.

You must because you believe it. You have rejected what christ has done for you and now you must keep all the commandments perfectly.

[Zakuska]

Hebrews 1:1-2 "¹In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, ²but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son"

You follow a living prophet, a man. We follow Jesus, he is our prophet, he is God. Jesus is our living prophet. He is the end of all other living prophets.

RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!

Cool. I don't need to listen to Paul the Prophet any more! Im going to love my new testament with only 4 books in it!!!! It's going to be soooooo much easier to read.

Acts 11: 27

27

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Hebrews 1:1-2 "¹In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, ²but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son"

You follow a living prophet, a man. We follow Jesus, he is our prophet, he is God. Jesus is our living prophet. He is the end of all other living prophets.

There is a slight problem with that verse of scripture. It never said that God would not need to call prophets anymore. Christ does indeed talk to us, as he always did. He does that through Prophets per Amos 3:7. I have not seen that prinicpal repealed. For it to be repealed there would need to be a scripture that states. And I God will no longer call prophets. And this verse of scripture does not say that no more sciprutre will be given.

Your interpretation falls flat on it face as books of scripture were still be written after Hebrews was written. Should we through those books out of the bible because they were clearly writtin by just men. Jesus didn't write them.

[Echo]

This is clearly false, you have clearly ignored the words of Jesus and place your misinterpreted words of Paul preeminent over the clear and plain words of Jesus. I have quoted many declarations of Jesus that you totally ignore.

CFR!

This is easily proven FALSE! (Using the Bible of course).

CFR!

[Vance]

He is the end of all other living prophets.

FALSE FALSE FALSE FALSE!!!!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You must because you believe it. You have rejected what christ has done for you and now you must keep all the commandments perfectly.

That is a condition. You loose. You claimed there are not conditions for grace. Now I have to believe and I have to listen, what else do I have to do?

And how have I rejected what Christ has done. Please be specific.

[Vance]

CFR!

CFR!

Read it and weep.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

This isn't what I am asserting.

Grace is required to produce faith in us. A salvation of grace alone produces faith.

That faith then goes on to do good works.

Faith is only made alive once we have works. Talk about the horse before the cart. That is not what the scirputres teach, that is that works are a product of salvation. You have to deal with James. He states that faith with out works is dead. It is therofre impossble for works to be a product of salvation if works are needed to make faith alive or to give you a saving faith then works cannot be a product of something that is impossible to happen before you get it. That is what you are claiming. You claim that we have faith, then we are saved by grace then good works come after that. That is impossible per James. He states that you must have works to make your faith alive, then and only after you show your faith by your works are you saved.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Read it and weep.

Pooned

[Brade]

Echo, I think there's a coherent view related to what you're saying, but as it stands I think you make it difficult to address that view because of your unqualified assertion that there are no conditions to salvation. As I said in my earlier comment, it seems that even on your view there are some conditions to salvation. The relevant question is whether an agent in need of salvation must be the cause of those conditions.