Parable of Sheep and Goats and salvation requirements

[Echo]

Bingo. "Reciprocation" is the key word there. Which is also saying that "Grace" has to be freely given and can have no strings attached.

So then why does Paul place strings on Grace making an "Action of recipraction" a reqirement for receiving it?

Romans 10

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Moving ones lips is an Action which must be made in order for the "Grace" to take effect.

And the ability to moves ones lips is enable by grace.

1)Grace first. Grace in effect already.

2) Lips move

[Zakuska]

And the ability to moves ones lips is enable by grace.

1)Grace first. Grace in effect already.

2) Lips move

So then its God doing the confessing and not the person at all, which makes it Gods fault when people fail to be saved.

A persons free will has to be in there some where.

"Not my will, but thy will be done."

As Walker said its a system of Riciprocation. Us sacrificing our self to the Lord.

[Echo]

So then its God doing the confessing and not the person at all,

incorrect

which makes it Gods fault when people fail to be saved.

incorrect

A persons free will has to be in there some where.

You don't have free will to take advantage of a sale in a newspaper until the store places the ad in the paper.

"Not my will, but thy will be done."

As Walker said its a system of Riciprocation. Us sacrificing our self to the Lord.

Certainly we sacrifice ourselves to the Lord. But we don't sacrifice ourselves to the Lord in order to recieve Grace. It's the grace God has already given us that results in our sacrificing ourselves to the Lord.

Do you say "thank you" to someone before they decided to give you a gift? The answer is "no" because Grace comes first.

[Tanyan]

The Free Gift of Grace [charis] offered us by Jesus Christ must be accessed/activated/made alive by the Gift of Faith [pistis] which also we have been offered. In other words Faith [pistis] is activated/accessed and made alive by us so as we can access/activate and make alive Jesus Christs Free Gift of Grace [charis]. We choose mentaly/physicaly to respond to walk in the Light as he [Jesus Christ] is in the light so as His blood cleanses us from all sin. No OSAS.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

WalkerW- What type of response are you looking for here that we havn't already discussed thouroughly?

If grace expects something in return, it isn't grace. Grace is the unmerited, undeserved love God has for all of mankind whether or not they reciprocate. We have discussed this already.

Were in the bible does it say "If grace expects something in return, it isn't grace."? I cannot find that. I also cannot find a single verse that states "Grace is the unmerited, undeserved love God has for all of mankind whether or not they reciprocate." Can you help me out?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

incorrect

incorrect

What would you call it then?

You don't have free will to take advantage of a sale in a newspaper until the store places the ad in the paper.

We are not talking about a sale in a newspaper until the store places the ad in the paper. We are talking about gaining salvation through Christ's previously performed sacrafice. Is there a condition that must be meet before one can claim salvation? Why are not all mankind saved?

[Echo]

Were in the bible does it say "If grace expects something in return, it isn't grace."? I cannot find that.

Romans 11:6 "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace."

I also cannot find a single verse that states "Grace is the unmerited, undeserved love God has for all of mankind whether or not they reciprocate." Can you help me out?

Romans 5:6 "You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly."

Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still SINNERS, Christ died for us"

1 Peter 3:18 "For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the UNRIGHTEOUS"

2 Corinth 5:19 "...that God was reconciling the WORLD to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them..."

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

Interesting topic now that it nears 700 responses...

My two cents to this topic are that the grace of God came into play by the person of Jesus Christ and His Atonement (or Sacrifice). It is a free gift to those who accept it. That is where faith comes into play. And the mere fact of accepting God's gift for us is indeed a work. The mere fact of professing a belief in Christ and letting your sins go, is a work, known as REPENTENCE.

Faith in itself has a more serious connotation than mere belief.

[Echo]

What would you call it then?

We are not talking about a sale in a newspaper until the store places the ad in the paper. We are talking about gaining salvation through Christ's previously performed sacrafice. Is there a condition that must be meet before one can claim salvation? Why are not all mankind saved?

If someone has already forgiven you for something you did to him before you did anything to gain his forgiveness or even ask for it, was there a condition to your being forgiven by him?

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

If someone has already forgiven you for something you did to him before you did anything to gain his forgiveness or even ask for it, was there a condition to your being forgiven by him?

That example would show great love and compassion, with a similitude to the Sacrifice of the Only Begotten.

But at the same time, though the gift is free, people must first accept the gift. And the gift has some assembly required.

If you were to go to say California for vacation, and you planned to drive cross country from the East, when are you in California? When you start the car in the driveway? Or when you arrived in your final destination?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

If someone has already forgiven you for something you did to him before you did anything to gain his forgiveness or even ask for it, was there a condition to your being forgiven by him?

Yeah, but God has never made an unconditional declaration taht all are forgiven. Can you point that verse of scripture out to me? We are not talking about some guy or a brother we are talking about salvation. Salvation is not unconditional. If you believe it is can you back it up with a bible verse?

[Echo]

That example would show great love and compassion, with a similitude to the Sacrifice of the Only Begotten.

But at the same time, though the gift is free, people must first accept the gift. And the gift has some assembly required.

If you were to go to say California for vacation, and you planned to drive cross country from the East, when are you in California? When you start the car in the driveway? Or when you arrived in your final destination?

If someone has already forgiven you for something you did to him before you did anything to gain his forgiveness or even ask for it, was there a condition to your being forgiven by him?

Your analogy doesn't work with my statement on forgiveness. Forgiveness comes first. And what assembly is required in my statement? There is nothing to assemble because you were already forgiven.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Romans 11:6 "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace."

This verse does not say "were in the bible does it say "If grace expects something in return, it isn't grace."? It merely is stating that works is not the mechanism that saves us. It is grace. Care to try again?

Romans 5:6 "You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly."

Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still SINNERS, Christ died for us"

1 Peter 3:18 "For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the UNRIGHTEOUS"

2 Corinth 5:19 "...that God was reconciling the WORLD to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them..."

Yeah, Christ died for us, it doesn't say that all are unconditionally saved and we have no responibilty for our salvation. Christ indeed did his part and provided away for all of mankind to be saved. But that does not mean that there are not condition. You said ""Grace is the unmerited, undeserved love God has for all of mankind whether or not they reciprocate." I still cannot find that. Those verse of scripture do not say that man does not need to recoprocate.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

If someone has already forgiven you for something you did to him before you did anything to gain his forgiveness or even ask for it, was there a condition to your being forgiven by him?

God never made such a declartion that all mankind is already forgiven, so your point is totally with out merit.

[Echo]

Yeah, but God has never made an unconditional declaration taht all are forgiven. Can you point that verse of scripture out to me?

God has made an unconditional declaration that "all" are forgiven. In Christ the sins of the whole world were forgiven, believer and unbeliever alike for all people are included in the word "world":

2 Corinth 5:19 "...that God was reconciling the WORLD to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them..."

We are not talking about some guy or a brother we are talking about salvation. Salvation is not unconditional. If you believe it is can you back it up with a bible verse?

Romans 4:4-5 "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."

Romans 9:32 "Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith

[Echo]

This verse does not say "were in the bible does it say "If grace expects something in return, it isn't grace."? It merely is stating that works is not the mechanism that saves us. It is grace. Care to try again?

Exactly! Works are not the mechanism that saves us. So that excludes all "conditions" because where you have "conditions" there you have salvation by works or grace and works. Grace and works cannot be mixed together. Your either saved by grace alone or works alone.

Yeah, Christ died for us, it doesn't say that all are unconditionally saved and we have no responibilty for our salvation. Christ indeed did his part and provided away for all of mankind to be saved. But that does not mean that there are not condition. You said ""Grace is the unmerited, undeserved love God has for all of mankind whether or not they reciprocate." I still cannot find that. Those verse of scripture do not say that man does not need to recoprocate.

Christ IS our salvation. To say that we have a responsibility for our salvation is a rejection of Christ's work on our behalf and therefore a rejection of Christ himself. You yourself and all of the other LDS posters I have spoken to as well as myself, do NOT meet the conditions. Don't you realize that? That is the whole point of scripture!

The verse doesn't say that man needs to reciprocate.

[Echo]

God never made such a declartion that all mankind is already forgiven, so your point is totally with out merit.

Yes he did. In 2 Corinth 5:19 which I listed above he stated that the whole world is forgiven. So your point is totally without merit.

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

If someone has already forgiven you for something you did to him before you did anything to gain his forgiveness or even ask for it, was there a condition to your being forgiven by him?

Your analogy doesn't work with my statement on forgiveness. Forgiveness comes first. And what assembly is required in my statement? There is nothing to assemble because you were already forgiven.

To answer your question which I put in bold, exactly what did we do? We were NOT on the earth 2000 years ago when Christ gave us that gift. And there IS a condition on our forgiveness. We need to ACCEPT the gift that Christ has given us. And accepting Him means more than just confessing with the lips that Jesus is the Christ. It means having our hearts in communion with Christ. That details lots of works, among which are faith and repentance.

To answer the part which i italicized, it does work in one way or another. We all desire to be saved. The scriptures are like the road map to be saved. We must follow the instructions on the road map in order to be saved. And just because we are in our own driveway, engine running, does not mean we are saved. At best, we are on the road to being saved. But we are saved when we reach our destination.

And the assembly required, would be the works required to obtain your final product, as if you had a model airplane in the box. The instructions within, are instructions to be followed to ensure a good product, as the scriptures serve as instructions on how we should lead our lives.

I would argue that your take on salvation comes perilously close to Nehorism.

[Zakuska]

incorrect

incorrect

I can give a grade school level answer too...

Nu-Huh!?

You don't have free will to take advantage of a sale in a newspaper until the store places the ad in the paper.

Certainly we sacrifice ourselves to the Lord. But we don't sacrifice ourselves to the Lord in order to recieve Grace. It's the grace God has already given us that results in our sacrificing ourselves to the Lord.

Do you say "thank you" to someone before they decided to give you a gift? The answer is "no" because Grace comes first.

The problem with your simplistic view is it doesn't fit reality.

For grace to be truly free and unmerrited as Evanglical Doctrine wishes to make it then everyone would have to be saved.

Yes God did put the add in the paper for everyone on the face of the planet. Yet not everyone is saved. Why? What makes the difference?

The difference is some actually walk up to the newspaper stand and take the newspaper and take advantage of what God has given them, while others don't, instead they walk around ablivious to the whole thing.

[Echo]

And the assembly required, would be the works required to obtain your final product, as if you had a model airplane in the box. The instructions within, are instructions to be followed to ensure a good product, as the scriptures serve as instructions on how we should lead our lives.

The scriptures don't give us instructions on how we should lead our lives as assembly instructions to achieve the final product which is our salvation. The instructions God gives us is his law and because of our sin, his law doesn't show the way to salvation, instead it reveals our sin. All God's law does for us concerning our salvation is

1) show us that we deserve God's wrath,

2) his law silences us all , because we have not and cannot meet the conditions

3) his law holds us totally accountable to God for our sins and therefore our inablity to meet the assembly requirements

4) his law reveals our sin, not our righteousness. Our inability to meet the conditions and our inability to be declared righteous through obedience to it:

Romans 3:19-20 "¹⁹Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. ²⁰Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."

[Zakuska]

Romans 11:6 "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace."

Continue the verse please...

Romans 11

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Grace and works are set at polar opposites here, yet Paul spends the next 6 chapters showing how grace faith and works fit together. Even going so far in chapter 13 to tell us to obey the 10 commandments.

Romans 13

1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God

[Echo]

I can give a grade school level answer too...

Nu-Huh

The problem with your simplistic view is it doesn't fit reality.

For grace to be truly free and unmerrited as Evanglical Doctrine wishes to make it then everyone would have to be saved.

Yes God did put the add in the paper for everyone on the face of the planet. Yet not everyone is saved. Why? What makes the difference?

The difference is some actually walk up to the newspaper stand and take the newspaper and take advantage of what God has given them, while others don't, instead they walk around ablivious to the whole thing.

If someone has already forgiven you for something you did to him before you did anything to gain his forgiveness or even ask for it, was there a condition to your being forgiven by him?

Our "simplistic" view is the true view. Why do you think that God reveals these things to the little children and it is hidden from the wise and learned? The answer is because the wise and learned always look for something more complicated than simplicity and miss the message all together!

God has forgiven the whole world not counting their sins against them. He did this before they did anything to gain his forgiveness or even ask for it. Is everyone forgiven? The answer is YES. If everyone is forgiven, will everyone be saved? The answer is NO. Why? Because some reject this forgiveness or refuse to believe it therefore they forfeit it (they don't want it). Does the fact that some accept the fact that they are forgiven mean that they had to do something to be forgiven? NO. Why? Because as I stated, they were already forgiven before they accepted it and they were accepting the fact that they were already forgiven, they weren't accepting the fact in order to be forgiven. There is a difference.

Very simplistic.

[Zakuska]

God has forgiven the whole world not counting their sins against them. He did this before they did anything to gain his forgiveness or even ask for it. Is everyone forgiven? The answer is YES. If everyone is forgiven, will everyone be saved? The answer is NO. Why? Because some reject this forgiveness or refuse to believe it therefore they forfeit it (they don't want it). Does the fact that some accept the fact that they are forgiven mean that they had to do something to be forgiven? NO. Why? Because as I stated, they were already forgiven before they accepted it and they were accepting the fact that they were already forgiven, they weren't accepting the fact in order to be forgiven. There is a difference.

Very simplistic.

If what you say is true then these verses are a lie.

Heb 10

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses

[Echo]

Continue the verse please...

Romans 11

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Grace and works are set at polar opposites here, yet Paul spends the next 6 chapters showing how grace faith and works fit together. Even going so far in chapter 13 to tell us to obey the 10 commandments.

Exactly! Grace and works are set at polar opposites! They can't be mixed together!

Romans 13

1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God

[Zakuska]

Exactly! Grace and works are set at polar opposites! They can't be mixed together!

And yet Paul spends the next six chapters doing just that mixing them.

Also if what you say is true then the only people who are saved are Gentiles and the Israelites are all going to hell.

Did you notice Pauls rhetorical question following verse 6?

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Exactly! Once saved by grace alone, the individual believer goes on to produce works. Two events side by side but not mixed together. Grace has to do with salvation, works have to do with those who were previously saved by grace

Grace is accesed through Faith.

We are saved by Grace it says. It doesn't say we are saved because of faith. "Through faith" and "because of faith" are two different things.

Grace is accesed THROUGH faith. No faith and grace means nothing.

Did you notice this verse?

Heb. 5: 9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Salvation only comes to those who obey Jesus' commandments.