Vance Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Most of you may have figured out by now that having a discussion with Echo is like trying to talk to someone who continually backs away from you in a circular direction. He is a nice guy who is impervious to logic, reason or scripture. So around and around we go, while making no progress.At some point we may have to just let him have the last word. That is the only way to stop the merry-go-round.At the end of the day though, we really should thank him. After all after this exchange which one of you has not had your faith and testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ strengthened?
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 You gave me a non answer. Please answer my question. Are all men saved? If not why not.All mankind has been forgiven, believer and unbeliever alike. But only the believer benefits from that forgiveness. The unbeliever doesn't benefit because he doesn't believe his sins are forgiven even though they are. So he goes on to gain that forgiveness, not through Jesus, but by some other way.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Your friend God! self The logic doesn't flow sorry Echo.
Calm Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Echo: I commend you for apologizing and I forgive you now even before you work at overcoming.Thank you, but you are a little too late, apologising is part of overcoming.The separation of the two is indicative of a certain view of separation of internal and eternal behaviour which is reflected in the view of faith as a nonwork/nonaction, a view that ignores imo the way the human mind and spirit actually functions.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 All mankind has been forgiven, believer and unbeliever alike. But only the believer benefits from that forgiveness. The unbeliever doesn't benefit because he doesn't believe his sins are forgiven even though they are. So he goes on to gain that forgiveness, not through Jesus, but by some other way.So what does one have to do to believe? You jsut stated that "your beliefs" are not necesarry for salvation, and then claim that only the believers are saved. What does it take for one to be a "believer" what is required?
Vance Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Echo,So you think that when you are obedient to God, you are serving yourself?So then, how does one serve God?
Calm Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 And the word "submit" means do the will of the sovereign. Even "listen to" means apply (an act) the things being heard. And "accept" is an act as well.For any change to take place, an action/work must be done.
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 The logic doesn't flow sorry Echo.That's right. Logic doesn't flow where God's truth is concerned. His truth is much higher than the logic of man. Because of man's logic and his desire to make his logic his God, he can't understand spiritual things:1 Corinthians 2:14 "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."
Calm Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Agency is NEVER lost by chosing to be obedient to God to receive His greatest gift, which is eternal life.Eternal life not being getting to be "a god over my own planet" or any other of the supposed rewards that antis point out that LDS are "earning" their salvation/exaltation for, but rather being able to live with God again, to become one with him as he promises all who love him and keep his commandments. Eternal life
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Most of you may have figured out by now that having a discussion with Echo is like trying to talk to someone who continually backs away from you in a circular direction. He is a nice guy who is impervious to logic, reason or scripture. So around and around we go, while making no progress.At some point we may have to just let him have the last word. That is the only way to stop the merry-go-round.At the end of the day though, we really should thank him. After all after this exchange which one of you has not had your faith and testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ strengthened?Not too worry Vance, I am heading off on vacation with my family this week and won't have access to a computer so I won' t be posting here during that time. After I return from vacation, it's back to work for me and not much time once that begins again to post here either. So you can have the last word.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 That's right. Logic doesn't flow where God's truth is concerned. His truth is much higher than the logic of man. Because of man's logic and his desire to make his logic his God, he can't understand spiritual things:1 Corinthians 2:14 "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."You are just making things up dude. So God is trying to fool us with bad logic? You have not been teaching the truth btw. The truth should be logical. It should make sense. Is God a God of confusion? You seem to think He is.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Echo,So you think that when you are obedient to God, you are serving yourself?So then, how does one serve God?That is what I got out of it and he is telling me that God doesn't need to be logical. I find the idea that to be obedient to God is just a self serving exersise, to be unbliblical.
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 You are just making things up dude. So God is trying to fool us with bad logic? You have not been teaching the truth btw. The truth should be logical. It should make sense. Is God a God of confusion? You seem to think He is.Why do you think that man cannot understand the things that come from the Spirit? Man finds it "foolishness" and "he cannot understand it"? Man cannot understand because it defies mans logic. Man's logic is flawed. Not God's logic.Because Gods way are higher than our ways, God's logic is perfect and our logic can be flawed. Isaiah 55:8 ""For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD."
Zakuska Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 YES! Gods very own word here in Genesis 3:4 tells us that the serpent(satan) said to the woman, ye shall not surely die. God, through these his own word is telling us the truth of what Satan said to the woman.If these are "Gods very own words" then God lies. Because Gods "Very own Words" say something very different.Gen 217 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. But God wrote these words, they are his he is revealling truth to us about what Satan did.I also was unaware that God even knew how to write. At least I have never seen any bibilcal evidence that he can write, and since he has no Body of Flesh and Bone he couldn't write anything if his life depended upon it.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Why do you think that man cannot understand the things that come from the Spirit? Man finds it "foolishness" and "he cannot understand it"? Man cannot understand because it defies mans logic. Man's logic is flawed. Not God's logic.Because Gods way are higher than our ways, God's logic is perfect and our logic can be flawed. Isaiah 55:8 ""For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD."Aww, now we get to the rub of it all, I do not argue with scripture for they are true, what I have a problem with is that you seem to think that what you are teachings is God's way. I contend that it is not for you have not shown it to be using the bible. And you ahve ignored tons of verses that have been thrown your way. You can't even tell me why the sheep are sheep and the goats are goats. I want you to tell me from the verse of the parable. What did the sheep do that the goats didn't.
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 If these are "Gods very own words" then God lies. Because Gods "Very own Words" say something very different.Gen 217 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. I also was unaware that God even knew how to write. At least I have never seen any bibilcal evidence that he can write, and since he has no Body of Flesh and Bone he couldn't write anything if his life depended upon it.Men wrote the words of God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. God can tell us what Satan did or said and they are still God's testimony, his own word that this is true and that this was done or said.
Vance Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Not too worry Vance, I am heading off on vacation with my family this week and won't have access to a computer so I won' t be posting here during that time. After I return from vacation, it's back to work for me and not much time once that begins again to post here either. So you can have the last word.No worries!!! At all!!!I am extremely glad you have been posting here. I am afraid that if you realized how much you strengthen the LDS individual with your posts you wouldn't even be here.I have thoroughly enjoyed "sparring" with you so to speak. I appreciate your willingness to call "sin" for some statements that expose the strength of you positions.I appreciate the circular mental gymnastics that we experience when in conversation with you. It, when used properly can increase our patience, thus helping us to become more godly.I hope that you have a good and enjoyable vacation and that you return safely.I also hope that you can find the time to stop by on occasion. Your opposition does more good than you can possibly know.
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Aww, now we get to the rub of it all, I do not argue with scripture for they are true, what I have a problem with is that you seem to think that what you are teachings is God's way. I contend that it is not for you have not shown it to be using the bible. And you ahve ignored tons of verses that have been thrown your way. You can't even tell me why the sheep are sheep and the goats are goats. I want you to tell me from the verse of the parable. What did the sheep do that the goats didn't.My apologies if you think I am ignoring anything. I am not ignoring anything, I simply can't respond to everything although I am trying my best to cover as much as I can. It is one person(me) with much less time to post than 4 or 5 or 6 or more people who spend all their day posting faster than I can respond to just one post. I have to pick and choose. Take it or leave it. Sometimes your scriptures that you feel I am ignoring, I leave because its just too complicated for you to understand at this point. At some point in the future we can cover it after other understandings are in place and I feel you might be able to grasp what I am saying. Besides, the conversations are all over the place and are going in too many directions. I don't think we need to cover everything all at once. It's too much information for anyone to grasp. These things can be spread out over time.
Zakuska Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Men wrote the words of God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. You just said that God wrote it. So which is it?God can tell us what Satan did or said and they are still God's testimony, his own word that this is true and that this was done or said.Following your ill-Logic... God must have inspired Satan to lie then.
LeSellers Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 I don't believe those 3 things you listed are scripture. I believe "all" of scripture is contained in the Bible.What you believe does not define truth, though. Truth is a knowledge of things as they are, as they were, and as they shall be. Where in the Bible do we read this? It appears that you are inventing things to suit your prejudices. Your rejection of scripture does not make those writings anything different from what they actually are: scripture. The thing is, the LDS believes [sic] that the Bible is scripture but not all of it is God's word.So? Not all of it is. Even if it were, which you have not demonstrated by any means, you have not shown how this affects us LDSs. Furthermore, there are things in the Bible that simply do not qualify as God's word. E.G., the Song of Solomon, the book of Esther, and the Johannine comma. There are others that need extensive defense, like parts of Ecclesiastes and Proverbs. We could, as others have, include all the misogyny of Paul and a huge part of the Old Testament, among others, but that would be chronocentrism (temporally bigoted egotism). There are literally hundreds of contradictory statements in the Bible. If God is not the Author of confusion, whence those passages? Finally, the Bible teaches nothing. It's only words until someone reads it and interprets it. The odds are that, uninspired, those persons will read it incorrectly. I believe you are among that number. Lehi
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 No worries!!! At all!!!I am extremely glad you have been posting here. I am afraid that if you realized how much you strengthen the LDS individual with your posts you wouldn't even be here.I have thoroughly enjoyed "sparring" with you so to speak. I appreciate your willingness to call "sin" for some statements that expose the strength of you positions.I appreciate the circular mental gymnastics that we experience when in conversation with you. It, when used properly can increase our patience, thus helping us to become more godly.I hope that you have a good and enjoyable vacation and that you return safely.I also hope that you can find the time to stop by on occasion. Your opposition does more good than you can possibly know. Thanks. I appreciate the kind words even if possibly intended tongue in cheek. I will remind anyone who is willing to listen that your sins don't expose the weakness of my position nor anyone else's. Sin never exposes anything except the failure of one's own heart to do good rather than evil. And sometimes unrepentantly I might add. And sometimes sin reveals the hypocrisy of a person not producing fruit in keeping with their beliefs. Whatever the case may be, If people want to be swayed because of sinful remarks aimed at my position as if that were some sort of evidence to suggest that my postion is weak somehow, so be it. That's their choice. I can always hope that there are those out there who prefer to be swayed by "facts" from the Bible and God's own mouth, rather than by failings, doings and sins from the mouths of men.I certainly will try to post back when I can. It won't be anywhere near as often as now. Once per week or so. Certainly I may be strengthening you in your own position, patience and percieved godliness and that's fine with me, let God's will be done for you. But perhaps God is using this to harden your heart in your beliefs. The more you are strengthened in your beliefs, the harder your heart becomes making it much more difficult and even impossible over time to for you to come to a knowledge of the truth. That would be biblical also. Pharoah comes to mind in Exodus 4 and also Romans 9:18 as well as Sin and unrepentance in and of itself also hardens hearts. That would be biblical also. But I will leave that all up to God and his will for you. That's not my business.
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 You just said that God wrote it. So which is it?Following your ill-Logic... God must have inspired Satan to lie then.Now your just nit picking. I assumed you knew what I intended. Surely you have been down this road thousand's of times with other non LDS. And what did Satan do in Eden? He tempted Adam and Eve to doubt God's word which is exactly what you are doing. Your ill logic is a stumbling block. God doesn't inspire Satan to lie. He inspired Moses to write about Satan's lie.
Zakuska Posted January 4, 2010 Posted January 4, 2010 And what did Satan do in Eden?He lied. He said they would not die when God said that they would. He tempted Adam and Eve to doubt God's word which is exactly what you are doing.On the contrary... I'm establishing exactly what it was that God said and what it was that Satan Said. On the other hand... In your world God penned ever word in the Bible, so every lie that is told in the bible... every witch that speaks.... every evil man the speaks its actually God speaking directly to us.
volgadon Posted January 4, 2010 Posted January 4, 2010 Apparently, God approves of premarital rompy pompy.
Echo Posted January 4, 2010 Posted January 4, 2010 He lied. He said they would not die when God said that they would. He said: "Did God really say..." thus tempting Eve to doubt God's word. She doubted God's word and he got her right there. Now we all must die. On the contrary... I'm establishing exactly what it was that God said and what it was that Satan Said. God is telling us what Satan said. If Satan said it and it didn't come from the mouth of God, it would be a lie. You should know better.On the other hand... In your world God penned ever word in the Bible, so every lie that is told in the bible... every witch that speaks.... every evil man the speaks its actually God speaking directly to us. You don't understand what I mean. Without trying to offend you, perhaps this is a discussion beyond your comprehension.
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