Parable of Sheep and Goats and salvation requirements

[Zakuska]

Our eternal destiny (heaven or hell) is decided immediatley upon our death. Believers go to heaven through faith alone, unbelievers go to hell.

2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

They will be judged for their works in the later time of the judgement

But this is off topic and sidetracking the discussion, I would like to discuss perfection.

No its not. Its germane to your mis-reading of these other verses.

[Echo]

Notice that it "leads" us toward repentance, but it doesn't make us do it. You know the old saying, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink it"?

What kindness of God leads you to repentance?

And who are "those who are being made holy"? They are the ones repenting from all their sins.

Hebrews 10:14 "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever

Have you been made perfect forever?

[Zakuska]

What kindness of God leads you to repentance?

Hebrews 10:14 "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever

Have you been made perfect forever?

Paul must have missed your memo.

Philip 3

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

[Echo]

Paul must have missed your memo.

Philip 3

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

You have missed the teaching of scripture. Who "HAS" (past tense) been made perfect forever in Hebrews 10:14? Those who are being made Holy. Those who are in this life being made Holy(perfect) desire to become Holy(perfect) because God has already declared them Holy(perfect).

Because of Christ's sacrifce, we have been imputed (credited) with Christ's sinless righteousness by faith alone. We desire to become that which Christ has already imputed to us.

Are you perfect?

[Vance]

What kindness of God leads you to repentance?

Irrelevant to the topic.

Hebrews 10:14 "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever

Let's look at the WHOLE verse.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Who are the "sanctified"?

1 Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you (but they had repented): but ye are washed (baptized), but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

It is God's command is that you believe IN Jesus and to believe IN Jesus you also must believe and follow Him by obeying His commandments.

It is also God's command that you repent.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Have you been made perfect forever?

Irrelevant.

[Echo]

Irrelevant to the topic.

It's not irrelevant. The topic is salvation requirements. You believe repentance is a requirement. It's very relevant.

Let's look at the WHOLE verse.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Who are the "sanctified"?

1 Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you (but they had repented): but ye are washed (baptized), but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

I agree. Only believers are already sanctified. Are you sanctified already?

It is God's command is that you believe IN Jesus and to believe IN Jesus you also must believe and follow Him by obeying His commandments.

When you read the sermon on the mount, can you say you obey all the commandments?

Irrelevant.

Being perfect is relevant to salvation from my perspective. I believe that unless a person is perfect, they are not saved. Are you perfect?

[Zakuska]

You have missed the teaching of scripture. Who "HAS" (past tense) been made perfect forever in Hebrews 10:14? Those who are being made Holy. Those who are in this life being made Holy(perfect) desire to become Holy(perfect) because God has already declared them Holy(perfect).

Because of Christ's sacrifce, we have been imputed (credited) with Christ's sinless righteousness by faith alone. We desire to become that which Christ has already imputed to us.

Are you perfect?

Is Paul? No. He reaches forward to abtain it. Pauls Faith isn't ALONE.

[Vance]

It's not irrelevant.

Yes, it is.

The topic is salvation requirements.

True.

You believe repentance is a requirement.

True.

It's very relevant.

False.

Only believers are already sanctified.

Only repenter/obeyers are sanctified by the Spirit.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Are you sanctified already?

Irrelevant.

When you read the sermon on the mount, can you say you obey all the commandments?

Irrelevant.

Being perfect is relevant to salvation from my perspective.

So?

I believe that unless a person is perfect, they are not saved.

And I believe and have shown that salvation comes AFTER DEATH.

Are you perfect?

Are you DEAD? Oh wait, you personal condition is IRRELEVANT to this discussion.

Edited to add respect!

[Zakuska]

\Only repenter/obeyers are sanctified by the Spirit.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Not only is obedience necessary for the Holy Ghost, but for Savation period...

Heb. 5: 9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[Echo]

Do you obey all of the commandments?

[Zakuska]

Do you obey all of the commandments?

Better question... do you?

1 Jn. 5: 2-3

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Jesus warned us about false teachers such as you Echo...

Matt. 5: 19

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

And an even better question...

1 Tim 6

1 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.

2 And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.

3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Why are you teaching Pauls words as Gospel truth rather than those of Jesus?

[Echo]

Better question... do you?

Would you obey the commandments if they weren't a requirement for salvation?

1 Jn. 5: 2-3

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Jesus warned us about false teachers such as you Echo...

1) Do you keep his commandments?

2) Have I sinned against you?

Matt. 5: 19

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

1) Do you teach others here who break the commandments to stop breaking them?

2) When others here break the commandments do I teach them to stop breaking the commandments?

And an even better question...

1 Tim 6

1 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.

2 And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.

3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Why are you teaching Pauls words as Gospel truth rather than those of Jesus?

1) When you see your fellow LDS break the commandments do you show them their sin to try and stop them so that the name of God and his doctrine will not be blasphemed?

2) Do you use wholesome, loving and respectful words?

3) Do others here always use wholesome, loving and respectful words?

4) Do you encourage godliness amongst your brothers or do you encourage them in their sinful remarks by remaining silent and/or even joining in with them?

5) Have you ever caused strife because of your sins?

6) Have other LDS here ever caused strife because of their sins?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

No unclean person can enter into heaven, **ALL** sin must be forgiven.

Yeah and??? I have not disputed that one must accept Christ. Accroding to the parable of the sheep and the goats what did the sheep do that the goats didn't do. Surely you can answer this simple question.

[Echo]

Yeah and??? I have not disputed that one must accept Christ. Accroding to the parable of the sheep and the goats what did the sheep do that the goats didn't do. Surely you can answer this simple question.

I surely can answer this simple question with a simple answer. The sheep believed ALL their sins were forgiven through faith alone. The Goats believed their sins were forgiven through faith and works.

[clairc829]

I surely can answer this simple question with a simple answer. The sheep believed ALL their sins were forgiven through faith alone.

The verse in the scriptures that says that seems to be missing from my Bible.

[Zakuska]

Would you obey the commandments if they weren't a requirement for salvation?

Of course I would, would you?

[Zakuska]

I surely can answer this simple question with a simple answer. The sheep believed ALL their sins were forgiven through faith alone. The Goats believed their sins were forgiven through faith and works.

Some one better go read the Parable again. "Beleif" is no where even mentioned in the Parable.

Actions and doing is the only thing that is mentioned.

John also agrees that "Faith AND Works" are marks of a true Beleiver, a Sheep.

1 John 3

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

Notice here (Verse 10) how there is no mentioning as Echo did that "He who beleieves his sin was over come by faith alone", is a child of God.

He who DOES righteousness is a Sheep period. (See verse 10)

Something tells me we have a Blind Goat dawning a wooley costume posting here.

[Echo]

The verse in the scriptures that says that seems to be missing from my Bible.

Numbers 21:4-9

"⁴ They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; ⁵ they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the desert? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!"

⁶ Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. ⁷ The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us." So Moses prayed for the people. ⁸ The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." ⁹ So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived."

1) What SIN did the Israelites commit in verse 5?

2) What consequence did the Lord send in verse 6?

3) In verse 9 what one thing "alone" did the Israelites have to do to live?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I surely can answer this simple question with a simple answer. The sheep believed ALL their sins were forgiven through faith alone. The Goats believed their sins were forgiven through faith and works.

Oh really, can you point me to the exact verses of scripture that tell me that from the parable. I am not interested in proof text of what you think Paul is talking about.

I do not see one mention of the goats being damned because they didn't believe Christ. Show me those verses.

[Vance]

I surely can answer this simple question with a simple answer. The sheep believed ALL their sins were forgiven through faith alone. The Goats believed their sins were forgiven through faith and works.

CFR Chapter and verse please

[Zakuska]

Numbers 21:4-9

"⁴ They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; ⁵ they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the desert? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!"

⁶ Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. ⁷ The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us." So Moses prayed for the people. ⁸ The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." ⁹ So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived."

1) What SIN did the Israelites commit in verse 5?

2) What consequence did the Lord send in verse 6?

3) In verse 9 what one thing "alone" did the Israelites have to do to live?

Bingo. Something they had to DO. That throws the whole "grace alone" "faith alone" false dichotomy devils doctrine in the garbage from the very get go. They had to DO something.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Numbers 21:4-9

"⁴ They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; ⁵ they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the desert? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!"

⁶ Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. ⁷ The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us." So Moses prayed for the people. ⁸ The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." ⁹ So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived."

1) What SIN did the Israelites commit in verse 5?

2) What consequence did the Lord send in verse 6?

3) In verse 9 what one thing "alone" did the Israelites have to do to live?

Haha this is great. Do you know the only thing that was required to be healed was that they look. No where in those verses does it say that they had to believe they would be healed, only that they had to look. Looking at something is a work, or an act of doing something. Care to try again? You are only making a stronger case for the LDS position here.

[Vance]

1) What SIN did the Israelites commit in verse 5?

They spoke against God and His Prophet!

2) What consequence did the Lord send in verse 6?

They were afficted like all who speak against God and His Prophet.

3) In verse 9 what one thing "alone" did the Israelites have to do to live?

Obey the instructions(commandments) God gave them through His Prophet.

OBEDIENCE saved them.

Edited to add; oops Mola got there first before me.

High five Mola!

Edited again to add; oops Zak got there first.

High five to Zak!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

They spoke against God and His Prophet!

They were afficted like all who speak against God and His Prophet.

Obey the instructions(commandments) God gave them through His Prophet.

OBEDIENCE saved them.

Edited to add; oops Mola got there first before me.

High five Mola!

Edited again to add; oops Zak got there first.

High five to Zak!

Down low.

Edited to show more respect.

[Echo]

Of course I would, would you?

This is really good to hear! I also want to keep them, even though they aren't a requirement for my salvation.

Can I ask: Why would you keep them if they weren't a requirement for salvation?

I sure try, and Jesus is there to pick me up whan I fail.

1 Jn. 1: 8

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I agree.

Are you saying you haven't sinned against me?

I sincerely try my best not to sin. I am unaware of any sin I have commit against you.

I teachs others to repent aways.

I have never seen an LDS person point out the sins of others in order to lead them to repent. I will watch for it now.

You said commandment keeping isn't required for salvation which is a lie. The very act of beleiving in God is obedience to a commandment.

Honestly, it's not a lie. If commandment keeping were a requirement for salvation, we wouldn't truly have free agency. Think about it.

If mowing my neighbors lawn is a requirement to his being my freind, then I havn't got free agency to mow his lawn. I "HAVE" to mow it if I want him as a freind. If I HAVE to do it on order for him to be my freind, then this freindship is not built on free agency. That's slavery! In fact, I wouldn't want to mow his lawn just on the principle that he expects me to do that or else he won't be my freind. He may call it a requirement, I call it a threat or demand. I don't need freinds who lay down threats or demands. They only want to be my freind because I mow their lawn!

How much nicer it is to have a freind pop over and consider me a freind without requiring me to mow his lawn. Now THIS is the kind of freind I would and could freely choose (using my free agency) to mow his lawn! NO slavery in that! In fact, I would be glad to help this freind out whenever I can.

Which freind do you prefer? Which freind are you more likely to mow his lawn?