Tanyan Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 Response to the improper Faith alone understanding that FormerLDS promotes : http://members.fortunecity.com/faithofgod/faithalone.htm In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 Sidenote on John 3:5: The Greek is "of water and spirit." This is a single birth.So IOW, one cannot really be born again if they are only born again with just the HG? As that would be 1/2 a birth?
volgadon Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 We need to look at John 3 as Nicodemus would have, not as a protestant who is nearly 2000 years at a remove from the story.Here is one text which should help.The Mishnah has a tractate called Yoma, which is about the Day of Atonement and the high priest's preparation for it. The tractate close with a saying quoted by Rabbi Akiva.How fortunate you are, O Israel! Before whom are you made clean? Who is it that makes you clean? Your Father that is in heaven! As it is said (Ezek 36:25) "And I will pour clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean"; it says also (Jer 17:13), "the mikveh of Israel is the Lord"- even as a mikveh makes clean those who are unclean, so the Holy One, blessed be He, makes Israel clean. Mikveh in Jer 17:13 is usually translated in English as hope, but it was seen as an allusion to the practice of ritual bathing, which was done in what was termed a mikveh. The association is further strengthened by the rest of the verse, which calls the Lord the fountain of living waters. Living water was the essential component in the mikveh.
Vance Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 We need to look at John 3 as Nicodemus would have, not as a protestant who is nearly 2000 years at a remove from the story.Here is one text which should help.The Mishnah has a tractate called Yoma, which is about the Day of Atonement and the high priest's preparation for it. The tractate close with a saying quoted by Rabbi Akiva.Mikveh in Jer 17:13 is usually translated in English as hope, but it was seen as an allusion to the practice of ritual bathing, which was done in what was termed a mikveh. The association is further strengthened by the rest of the verse, which calls the Lord the fountain of living waters. Living water was the essential component in the mikveh.Seems to go along with Isaiah's words.Isa 1:16
WalkerW Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 So IOW, one cannot really be born again if they are only born again with just the HG? As that would be 1/2 a birth?The two are linked as one. And if we are to interpret "water" to mean water baptism and "spirit" to mean Holy Spirit, then Joseph Smith was right:
WalkerW Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 We need to look at John 3 as Nicodemus would have, not as a protestant who is nearly 2000 years at a remove from the story.Here is one text which should help.The Mishnah has a tractate called Yoma, which is about the Day of Atonement and the high priest's preparation for it. The tractate close with a saying quoted by Rabbi Akiva.Mikveh in Jer 17:13 is usually translated in English as hope, but it was seen as an allusion to the practice of ritual bathing, which was done in what was termed a mikveh. The association is further strengthened by the rest of the verse, which calls the Lord the fountain of living waters. Living water was the essential component in the mikveh.This is a great reference. How would I reference this if I were to show it elsewhere? MLA format, if you will.
Tanyan Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 My contribution to this http://www.theearlychurch.com/english/sd10-waterbaptism.html In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
volgadon Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 This is a great reference. How would I reference this if I were to show it elsewhere? MLA format, if you will.I'm guessing it would be Mishnah, t. Yoma 8:7. It also is quoted in Reflections on a Mishnah, from Judah Goldin's Studies in Midrash and Other Related Literature, the Jewish Publication Society, 1988.
FormerLDS Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 This isn't making any sense. The will of the father differs for the sheep and the goats, but the goats are goats because they didn't do the will of the father?? Were is it said that the goats had a "different will of the Father"? You are making things up.From the parable of the Sheep and the Goats, what specifically did that Goats not do. Can you name them for me? Thanks.This is a parable (conveys meaning through analogy and comparison).I do not believe the rejected of the savior were turned away because they did not literally feed the hungry, cloth the naked, visit those in prison, etc, in the exact sense of the word. For example, in John 4, Jesus Christ said
Zakuska Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 The two are linked as one. And if we are to interpret "water" to mean water baptism and "spirit" to mean Holy Spirit, then Joseph Smith was right:
WalkerW Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 I'm guessing it would be Mishnah, t. Yoma 8:7. It also is quoted in Reflections on a Mishnah, from Judah Goldin's Studies in Midrash and Other Related Literature, the Jewish Publication Society, 1988.Thank you
FormerLDS Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 So, is FormerLDS's interpretation of Eph. 2:8, "For by grace are ye saved, through Christ's faith"?Ephesians 2:8"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" What does "that" refer to?
Zakuska Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 Ephesians 2:8"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" What does "that" refer to?I don't know what "THAT" is refering to.... why are you placing so much emphesis on an English word that does not exist in the original Greek?Eph 2 (NIV)8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith
FormerLDS Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 This didn't answer my question. What is "faith"?Faith is doing something.
LeSellers Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 WOW, FormerLDS the early Christian Bishops/Church leaders would [not] have agreed with you at all ! Did you leave out the negation I inserted above?Lehi
FormerLDS Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 I don't know what "THAT" is refering to.... why are you placing so much emphesis on an English word that does not exist in the original Greek?Eph 2 (NIV)8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith
Zakuska Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 Faith is doing something.Very good!So then Faith isn't Alone.
FormerLDS Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 My contribution to this http://www.theearlychurch.com/english/sd10-waterbaptism.html In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.Tanyan, Tanyan. What an honor. (And I really mean that. You're a smart guy.)Thank you for the latest addition of argumentum ad verecundiam...
FormerLDS Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 Very good!So then Faith isn't Alone.You're getting it.
Zakuska Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 You're getting it.Aaaa.. no your getting it... this is what LDS have been saying for 150+ years.
FormerLDS Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 So we don't even need to ahve faith now? Just the fact that Jesus has faith, his faith alone is enough to save us?? Are you a Calvinist?You need His faith now. His faith is enough to save.How did "his" faith become yours?? Can we expect more equivocation in the future from you?Consider Ephesians 2:8"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"His faith is a gift.I received His faith the very second I believed that His atonement alone was enough for my eternal life. That moment I became a "sheep".Consider Romans 4."19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead , when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised , he was able also to perform . 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed , if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."What better Christmas present to accept than the free gift of eternal life friends?You can have that gift right this very second if you would chose to believe.
volgadon Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 Thank youI'm going to put it up on my blog too.
Zakuska Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 You need His faith now. His faith is enough to save.Consider Ephesians 2:8"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"His faith is a gift.Aaa... Excuse my poor english grammer but if you diagram the sentence the "Gift" would by either Grace or Salvation not faith. Faith is the means by which you obtain the grace. (ie Gift of God) And the reason God gives you this gift of Grace is for you to...10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Perform Good works and Glorify the Father which is in Heaven. The salvation Equation is:Salvation = grace THROUGH faith FOR good works. Or in other words... exactly what the BOM says...grace saves us "after all we can do".
Flyonthewall Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 "Born of water" is not baptism. That is your natural birth.Read the verse before and verse after. The natural birth then spiritual birth scenario is obvious."4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born(natural birth) when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born ? 5 Jesus answered , Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water(natural birth) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh(natural birth) is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." John 3Why then did He connect being born of water and spirit, but in the next sentence he makes a distinction between being born of flesh and being born of spirit? Why did He change from water to flesh if they both mean the same thing?It is because they do not mean the same thing. Born of water is baptism and is connected with being born of the spirit. Born of the flesh is our mortal or natural birth, which is not connected to being born of the spirit.Romans 6 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. When we are baptized, as we are laid under the water it symbolizes our natural man dying, and as we are raised up from the water it symbolizes us being resurrected or reborn unto a newness of life.
Tanyan Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 Tanyan, Tanyan. What an honor. (And I really mean that. You're a smart guy.)Thank you for the latest addition of argumentum ad verecundiam... Why do you feel it an "honor" ?, I am not that smart really, If you remember I am Brain injured for the rest of my life, so bombastic rhetorical dialectics directed my way are unbecomming of one who claims Jesus Christ as Lord. So did you read the material or just once again pass it off ?. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
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