Parable of Sheep and Goats and salvation requirements

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I see you won't come clean and desire to wiggle out of your false statement.

You stated: "You will have to treat us Mormons with respect (something that doesn't happen there)."

Just because 2 Christians were disrespectful doesn't mean that all of them are. You said: "something that doesn't happen there." Which means there is NO respect there for Mormons at all. That is false.

Mormons are treated with respect there. Those who don't treat Mormons with respect are rebuked.

I believe the time is right to say you have given false testimony against your neighbor Exodus 20:16 " You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor" which is a sin against the 10 commandments.

Just a freindly note for the future judgement, you won't be able to wiggle out of your sins so try and listen to and learn what merganzerman has to say to you. He can help you look forward to the judgement with Joy and without fear and without having to wiggle out of your sins.

Take Care and Thank you for your time.

I am confused, I thought we are saved by faith alone? And the Jesus work paid for all sins past, present, and future. You mean Vance can loose is salvation and "sin" if he doesn't repent now? Isn't that a work?

[selek]

If Im not mistaken... Luther himself said the same thing about Jews.

Per Echo, it must be okay because he sincerely believed it.

Of course, it also renders Echo's one-man jihad against Vance rather moot- since Vance sincerely believes there is no respect to be had for Mormons at the other site.

Remember, it doesn't matter if Vance's statement was false, in accurate, or even intentionally misleading- so long as Vance sincerely believes that to be the case.

Isn't this a marvellous new evidentiary standard to play with?

How many sins of the last two thousand years can we dismiss simply because "they sincerely believed it"?

The Crusades? The Inquisition? Jonestown? Mai Lai? Wounded Knee? September 11th?

Hey...they sincerely believedin what they were doing...so it must be all right, right Echo?

[Vance]

Per Echo, it must be okay because he sincerely believed it.

Of course, it also renders his one-man jihad against Vance moot- since Vance sincerely believes there is no respect to be had for Mormons at the other site.

Remember, the facts don't matter... cuz Vance sincerely believes.

The UMW has spoken!!! The debate is over!!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Per Echo, it must be okay because he sincerely believed it.

Of course, it also renders his one-man jihad against Vance moot- since Vance sincerely believes there is no respect to be had for Mormons at the other site.

Remember, the facts don't matter... cuz Vance sincerely believes.

Here is the paradox, I don't sincerley accept Echo's definition of repsect. What do we do now?

[selek]

Hi Mola,

What should we do?

Uh...make popcorn?

Contrary to Echo's rather silly "We just need to talk til we're in agreement", you're simply not going to convince a Hellenistic idolater such as Echo to accept the real God or the genuine teachings of his son, Jesus Christ, anymore than you can convince a flat-Earther that he can't fall off the edge.

Ultimately, all you can do is make popcorn, nominate them for Big Brother or Survivor, grab the remote and hope to blazes that the 50 percent genetics they pass on are permanently recessive.

[merganzerman]

But for some reason people say that you are saved at the second of faith. How is that possible??

It is made possible when we think of Jesus Christ as our substitute. By his perfect life and death, he paid the penalty for all of our sins -- past, present and future. So, on judgement day, when all of us go before God to judge us and be either placed with the sheep or the goats -- (go to post #1) -- he will look upon Jesus instead of ourselves and declare "Not guilty!". We are perfect! Faith changes our status from guilty to not-guilty -- like a hammer pounding on the judge's gavel. At that instance, we are perfect and fully forgiven because of Jesus as our substitute. So, when you read in the Bible and come across words like "justification", that is what it means.

[Zakuska]

Per Echo, it must be okay because he sincerely believed it.

Of course, it also renders Echo's one-man jihad against Vance rather moot- since Vance sincerely believes there is no respect to be had for Mormons at the other site.

Remember, it doesn't matter if Vance's statement was false, in accurate, or even intentionally misleading- so long as Vance sincerely believes that to be the case.

Isn't this a marvellous new evidentiary standard to play with?

How many sins of the last two thousand years can we dismiss simply because "they sincerely believed it"?

The Crusades? The Inquisition? Jonestown? Mai Lai? Wounded Knee? September 11th?

Hey...they sincerely believedin what they were doing...so it must be all right, right Echo?

MMM anyone?

I think Mel Gibson would really fit right in with Marty Luther.

[Vance]

It is made possible when we think of Jesus Christ as our substitute.

Think?

Isn't that a work?

By his perfect life and death, he paid the penalty for all of our sins -- past, present and future.

On this we agree.

So, on judgement day, when all of us go before God to judge us and be either placed with the sheep or the goats -- (go to post #1) -- he will look upon Jesus instead of ourselves and declare "Not guilty!".

Only if we have repented from those sins, and followed His commandments. Paying the price for all sins isn't the same as forgiving all sin.

We are perfect!

If we have repented and followed Jesus in deed and word then yes we are perfect.

Faith changes our status from guilty to not-guilty -- like a hammer pounding on the judge's gavel.

Repentance brings forgiveness.

At that instance, we are perfect and fully forgiven because of Jesus as our substitute.

If we have repented from our sins and followed Jesus in word and in deed, then yes, we are fully forgiven.

So, when you read in the Bible and come across words like "justification", that is what it means.

Yes, those that repent from their sins and follow Jesus in word and deed, they are justified.

Edited to add more respect.

[Zakuska]

<SNIP> At that instance, we are perfect and fully forgiven because of Jesus as our substitute. So, when you read in the Bible and come across words like "justification", that is what it means.

How can you say this when Paul himself says this?

1. Philip. 3: 12 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

[Vance]

How can you say this when Paul himself says this?

1. Philip. 3: 12 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

And what about this one?

Rom. 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Edited to add:

If they were perfect when they first believed then how could they be nearer to salvation later?

Also to add more respect.

[Zakuska]

A Dedication: No Respect

[WalkerW]

That is a classic!!!!!!!

That was my initial response. This is what I typed back: "You have got to be kidding me. "Christian pistis?" Pistis is a word. Words have meanings. And those citations give us an understanding of what the word's meaning was in that time period. Don't be preposterous. The Christians didn't suddenly make up a new definition of the word 'pistis' that was completely different from the secular and Jewish theological usage."

[WalkerW]

How very sad I am that no one touched the sources I provided.

[FormerLDS]

Nice straw man.

I didn't say that "the law" means only "the Law of Moses"

What I did say was . . .

So again, nice strawman. Have fun beating that one to death.

Oh, Echo. Is this an example of "bearing false witness"? Just wondering if FormerLDS needs to be concerned about his day of judgment.

Edited to add more respect.

I'm refuting your original position.

How can anyone refer to the "law of Moses" but not the ten commandments?

"The law" (whether "of Moses" or not) includes, as you put it commandments that "have ALWAYS been in force".

The Bible says "For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void , and the promise made of none effect"

Romans 4:14

Vance then says "It is rather obvious that Paul is referring to the "works" of the law of Moses and not works of righteousness."

So how can Paul be referring to the "works of the law of Moses" without also referring to the commandments that "have ALWAYS been in force", as you put it?

[FormerLDS]

How very sad I am that no one touched the sources I provided.

No offense WW; I just don't have time to ready lenghty blogs. Nothing personal about you or all of the effort that you have invested. Personally, I rarely ever respond to linked information. Takes too much time.

[WalkerW]

No offense WW; I just don't have time to ready lenghty blogs. Nothing personal about you or all of the effort that you have invested. Personally, I rarely ever respond to linked information. Takes too much time.

I didn't provide links to my blog. I provided quotes from various sources, which you overlooked several times. If you are too lazy to read the scholarship, then I don't really know what you are doing debating.

[Mordecai]

So, on judgement day, when all of us go before God to judge us and be either placed with the sheep or the goats -- (go to post #1) -- he will look upon Jesus instead of ourselves and declare "Not guilty!".

Ugh... so Jesus HIDES our sins and doesn't cleanse them. Is that what you guys teach? Any idiot can hide stuff. God can actually change our spirits.

[FormerLDS]

With respect to the original intent of this discussion, the parable of the sheep and goats as seen in Matthew 25, the difference between the "sheep" and the "goats" is this: Jesus never knew the goats.

What does that mean?

Verses to consider:

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish , neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

The sheep are those whom the savior knows, and they HAVE eternal life.

How do you know the savior knows you?

Simple, Do you have eternal life?

If you don't have eternal life, then the savior does not know you.

Consider 1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

[Zakuska]

With respect to the original intent of this discussion, the parable of the sheep and goats as seen in Matthew 25, the difference between the "sheep" and the "goats" is this: Jesus never knew the goats.

What does that mean?

Verses to consider:

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish , neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

The sheep are those whom the savior knows, and they HAVE eternal life.

How do you know the savior knows you?

Simple, Do you have eternal life?

If you don't have eternal life, then the savior does not know you.

Consider 1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Why do you haphazardly cobble together scriptures to prove your pet theories? Why not let John speak for himself?

1 John 5

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Those who KNOW God and are his Sheep and are KNOWN by God are those who OBEY the commandments and DO the Gospel not offer Christ empty Lips service.

It takes faith AND works.

[Flyonthewall]

I'm refuting your original position.

How can anyone refer to the "law of Moses" but not the ten commandments?

"The law" (whether "of Moses" or not) includes, as you put it commandments that "have ALWAYS been in force".

The Bible says "For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void , and the promise made of none effect"

Romans 4:14

Vance then says "It is rather obvious that Paul is referring to the "works" of the law of Moses and not works of righteousness."

So how can Paul be referring to the "works of the law of Moses" without also referring to the commandments that "have ALWAYS been in force", as you put it?

The law of Moses was the "letter" of the law. The law of Grace is the "spirit" of the law. God wanted to give the Israelites a higher law, but they didn't want it or it was too difficult for them, so God spelled it out for them in the 10 commandments, and all the "works" they had to do in the rites, rituals and laws. When Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses, He simplified it back to the basics. Love God. Love thy neighbor. All 10 commandments are summed up in those two commandments. You can't break any of the 10, without breaking one of the two. So the 10 commandments, while still in effect, have been fulfilled.

Salvation was not in the works of the law of Moses. The rites and rituals by themselves were not going to get anyone saved, they were only to lead Israel to Christ, through their symbolism, and prepare them for the spirit of the law, through obedience, where they are not going to be instructed on every little thing.

Paul spent a lot of time trying to teach Jews that the rites and rituals were no longer required, because the true law that leads to salvation had come. All the minutia of the law of Moses was replaced by a simpler law of Grace. Jesus taught us what we must do under the law of Grace.

I say the law of Grace is simpler but only in that it has less rites and rituals. It is actually a harder law because not only do our actions matter, but our intent also.

This is a good read :

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=2acd74536cf0c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

[FormerLDS]

Why do you haphazardly cobble together scriptures to prove your pet theories? Why not let John speak for himself?

1 John 5

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Those who KNOW God and are his Sheep and are KNOWN by God are those who OBEY the commandments and DO the Gospel not offer Christ empty Lips service.

It takes faith AND works.

"Believe" is the perfect fulfillment of all of the commandments. The moment I chose to believe, all of my transgressions (past, present and future) were forgiven me just as if I have obeyed all of the commandments perfectly.

Christ knew me the moment I believed. There will never be a point in the future which Christ can say to me "I never knew you".

No matter how much I sin (and I still do sin), no matter how bad a person I may be, I still have Jesus Christ in me, and I am known of Him forever more.

I have Christ's perfection imputed upon my soul - just as if I never broke one single commandment.

He who has the Son HAS eternal life.

[FormerLDS]

The law of Moses was the "letter" of the law. The law of Grace is the "spirit" of the law. God wanted to give the Israelites a higher law, but they didn't want it or it was too difficult for them, so God spelled it out for them in the 10 commandments, and all the "works" they had to do in the rites, rituals and laws. When Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses, He simplified it back to the basics. Love God. Love thy neighbor. All 10 commandments are summed up in those two commandments. You can't break any of the 10, without breaking one of the two. So the 10 commandments, while still in effect, have been fulfilled.

Salvation was not in the works of the law of Moses. The rites and rituals by themselves were not going to get anyone saved, they were only to lead Israel to Christ, through their symbolism, and prepare them for the spirit of the law, through obedience, where they are not going to be instructed on every little thing.

Paul spent a lot of time trying to teach Jews that the rites and rituals were no longer required, because the true law that leads to salvation had come. All the minutia of the law of Moses was replaced by a simpler law of Grace. Jesus taught us what we must do under the law of Grace.

I say the law of Grace is simpler but only in that it has less rites and rituals. It is actually a harder law because not only do our actions matter, but our intent also.

This is a good read :

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=2acd74536cf0c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

To imply God wanted to make life easier on mankind, so he sent LDS theology along to accomplish that task is a laugh. The LDS gospel is a religious treadmill of good works.

"Do all that you can do." Can you actually say you are doing this? Yet you contend this is "simpler"??

You're putting lipstick on a pig.

When Paul said "the law", he is referring to any work of righteousness.

Furthermore, there is no such thing as a "true law that leads to salvation".

Salvation came!

Eternal life is here for anyone to take freely and without worthy behavior and best effort.

Salvation isn't a treadmill - believe and you HAVE eternal life.

[volgadon]

With respect to the original intent of this discussion, the parable of the sheep and goats as seen in Matthew 25, the difference between the "sheep" and the "goats" is this: Jesus never knew the goats.

On what criteria is not knowing based?

The goats DID NOT do certain things. That is the point you are deliberately ignoring.

[Flyonthewall]

To imply God wanted to make life easier on mankind, so he sent LDS theology along to accomplish that task is a laugh. The LDS gospel is a religious treadmill of good works.

And good works are...bad?

"Do all that you can do." Can you actually say you are doing this? Yet you contend this is "simpler"??

If you really understood the gospel as taught by LDS, you would know better than to ask this, instead you only show that you did not really understand.

I explained why I used the term "simpler".

You're putting lipstick on a pig.

Putting lipstick on a pig is what happens when you claim you are saved in your sins.

When Paul said "the law", he is referring to any work of righteousness.

Furthermore, there is no such thing as a "true law that leads to salvation".

Salvation came!

Eternal life is here for anyone to take freely and without worthy behavior and best effort.

Salvation isn't a treadmill - believe and you HAVE eternal life.

So you are saying there is no law that leads to salvation? Jesus sure wasted His time here bringing the law of grace, and teaching us how we should act.

The bolded part is the total opposite of what is taught in the scriptures. The demons believe, and have no worthy behavior. According to your philosophy, they are saved and have eternal life. There is a fly in your ointment.

Let me ask you this: if you are saved the moment you believe, and are given eternal life, how does the judgement fit in? The scriptures state very plainly that everyone will be judged according to their works. If salvation/eternal life comes without works, just what purpose does the final judgment serve?

[selek]

To imply God wanted to make life easier on mankind, so he sent LDS theology along to accomplish that task is a laugh. The LDS gospel is a religious treadmill of good works.

Says you.

Those of us who've troubled themselves to actually read, to understand, to actually LIVE the faith know better.

"Do all that you can do." Can you actually say you are doing this? Yet you contend this is "simpler"??

You're putting lipstick on a pig.

Excepting, of course, that there is no such doctrine in LDS faith.

Two things you need to consider: first, exit stories, proselyting, and calls to repentance are all forbidden on the board. You're periloustly close to all three.

Second, one of your fellow travellers- who has since fled the field (apparently in abject terror of ...gasp... having to actually READ Scripture) made a big deal about bearing false witness. Since you two are on the same side, perhaps you might coordinate your strategies so as not to embarrass one another by committing sins the other has decried?

And finally, those of us who actually READ the Scriptures (Instead of reading INTO the Scriptures) understand quite clearly that neither the cheap grace you promote nor the OSAS of your fellows are Biblical.

They must instead be writt en into the Scriptures to justify those who don't wish to follow Jesus' commandments and prefer a foreign, responsibility-free gospel to satisfy their itching ears.