Parable of Sheep and Goats and salvation requirements

[Zakuska]

"Believe" is the perfect fulfillment of all of the commandments. The moment I chose to believe, all of my transgressions (past, present and future) were forgiven me just as if I have obeyed all of the commandments perfectly.

Christ knew me the moment I believed. There will never be a point in the future which Christ can say to me "I never knew you".

No matter how much I sin (and I still do sin), no matter how bad a person I may be, I still have Jesus Christ in me, and I am known of Him forever more.

I have Christ's perfection imputed upon my soul - just as if I never broke one single commandment.

He who has the Son HAS eternal life.

FALSE!

Heb 10

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses

[FormerLDS]

On what criteria is not knowing based?

The goats DID NOT do certain things. That is the point you are deliberately ignoring.

Nor could they since they had never truly met the savior.

If you don't have the Son, you don't have eternal life.

Therefore, no matter what "certain things" the goats might have done wouldn't matter.

The difference between the goats and sheep is "believe", not works.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Nor could they since they had never truly met the savior.

If you don't have the Son, you don't have eternal life.

Therefore, no matter what "certain things" the goats might have done wouldn't matter.

The difference between the goats and sheep is "believe", not works.

[FormerLDS]

FormerLDS, on 16 December 2009 - 08:37 PM, said:

"Believe" is the perfect fulfillment of all of the commandments. The moment I chose to believe, all of my transgressions (past, present and future) were forgiven me just as if I have obeyed all of the commandments perfectly.

Christ knew me the moment I believed. There will never be a point in the future which Christ can say to me "I never knew you".

No matter how much I sin (and I still do sin), no matter how bad a person I may be, I still have Jesus Christ in me, and I am known of Him forever more.

I have Christ's perfection imputed upon my soul - just as if I never broke one single commandment.

He who has the Son HAS eternal life.

FALSE!

Heb 10

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses

[Vance]

How can anyone refer to the "law of Moses" but not the ten commandments?

You said it yourself. The ten commandments are from the beginning and therefore preceded the law of Moses. So you have refuted nothing.

"The law" (whether "of Moses" or not) includes, as you put it commandments that "have ALWAYS been in force".

Not always!

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

And what did Jesus teach?

Matt 19:17 . . . if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So, you have refuted nothing.

The Bible says "For if they which are of the law (of Moses) be heirs, faith is made void , and the promise made of none effect"

Romans 4:14

Vance then says "It is rather obvious that Paul is referring to the "works" of the law of Moses and not works of righteousness."

So how can Paul be referring to the "works of the law of Moses" without also referring to the commandments that "have ALWAYS been in force", as you put it?

Simple! When a speaker uses the phrase "the law" they don't always mean to include the ten commandments, because the ten commandments are still in force and "the law" of Moses is not.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The 10 commandments are still in force.

Sometimes "the law" means only the law of Moses. Sometimes "the law" means the law of God (which preceded the law of Moses) includes the 10 commandments and excludes the law of Moses. Sometimes it means both.

So again, you have refuted nothing.

[Vance]

I didn't provide links to my blog. I provided quotes from various sources, which you overlooked several times. If you are too lazy to read the scholarship, then I don't really know what you are doing debating.

See the second quote in my signature line. That is why he doesn't engage the scholarship.

[Vance]

When Paul said "the law", he is referring to any work of righteousness.

CFR!!

[Vance]

With respect to the original intent of this discussion, the parable of the sheep and goats as seen in Matthew 25, the difference between the "sheep" and the "goats" is this: The goats didn't follow Jesus in deed and word.

There fixed it for you.

What does that mean?

Verses to consider:

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish , neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

There, fixed it for you.

The sheep are those whom follow the savior, and they HAVE eternal life.

There, fixed it for you.

How do you know the savior knows you?

I follow Him!!!

Simple, Do you have eternal life?

If you don't have eternal life, then the savior does not know you.

Not yet, I have to endure to the end first!

Matt. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name

[volgadon]

Nor could they since they had never truly met the savior.

If you don't have the Son, you don't have eternal life.

Therefore, no matter what "certain things" the goats might have done wouldn't matter.

The difference between the goats and sheep is "believe", not works.

[FormerLDS]

It is? Were in that parable did Jesus claim " When I was in prision you believed me not"???? I see that the Goats did not do the things the Sheep did do. THat is the difference. Belief is not even brought up in that parable. It is simply twisting the scriptures to get them to say something they dont. In fact it can be argued that the Goats knew who Jesus was as they called him "Master".

So in other words all the goats have done is provider lip serivce and cry "Lord Lord".

Oh I should point out that what you do in this very thread is called "proftexting". You are trying to read into certain verse of scripture that which is not there from your interpretations of other scripture.

Matthew 25:34 says "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come , ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."

How can anyone obtain an "inheritance"?

[Vance]

Matthew 25:34 says "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come , ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."

How can anyone obtain an "inheritance"?

Study the rest of the chapter!

Matt 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

. . .

23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

. . . (Or)

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

. . .

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Edited to add respect!

[Flyonthewall]

Matthew 25:34 says "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come , ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."

How can anyone obtain an "inheritance"?

Very simply, become a child of God. The king told the "sheep" just how they became "blessed of my Father", children of God...what was it he said again?...<hint: the answer is in verse 35>

[FormerLDS]

Stop being intellectualy dishonest. You are putting things into the text which simply aren't there. Christ does not tell the goats that he never knew them. If works, that is things to be done, is not the only thing separating goats from sheep, then please tell me what is, but use only Matthew 25.

Do you view the judgement day events as seen in Mt chapter 25 and Mt chapter 7:21-23 as the same event?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Matthew 25:34 says "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come , ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."

How can anyone obtain an "inheritance"?

Apparently they can obtain an inheritance by

Matt 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

By being "good and faithful".

We learn latter that one of the servants was not good and faithful. What qualifies some one as not good and faithful.

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

So he was slothful and he did not reap where Jesus sowed and he gather were he have not strawed.

This is not helping your case Former.

IOW what separtes the 3 in the parable of the talent is that those that are saved did something that those that are damned didn't do. Faith with out works is dead.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Do you view the judgement day events as seen in Mt chapter 25 and Mt chapter 7:21-23 as the same event?

Yes. How does one quilify for etneral life? What did the sheep do that the goats didn't??

THe sheep did the will of the Father. The will of the Father includes visiting the sick and aflicted, visit those in prison, and so on.

Those that are goats will departe into everlasting fire as just saying or believing that "Lord Lord" is enough will be disappointed. It is only those that do the will of the Father that will be in Hevean.

[volgadon]

Do you view the judgement day events as seen in Mt chapter 25 and Mt chapter 7:21-23 as the same event?

Different lessons are being taught here. I notice that you won't take me up on the challenge because your position is untenable.

[Vance]

Do you view the judgement day events as seen in Mt chapter 25 and Mt chapter 7:21-23 as the same event?

One of the lessons of Matt 7:21-23 is;

21

[FormerLDS]

Very simply, become a child of God. The king told the "sheep" just how they became "blessed of my Father", children of God...what was it he said again?...<hint: the answer is in verse 35>

You can't become a child of God though good works; you must be born again first.

[Vance]

You can't become a child of God though good works; you must be born again first.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother

[volgadon]

Lets look a little closer at the phrase 'Lord, Lord'. It appears in only one other place- Luke 6:46.

It is blindingly obvious that the term means an insencere follower of Christ, and an insincere follower is defined by that very verse as those who do not the things Christ says. Once again, the concept of knowing the Lord is linked with DOING.

So, Formy, that is why Christ said he never knew them.

[Flyonthewall]

You can't become a child of God though good works; you must be born again first.

Well, let's see...to be born again, one must be born of water and the spirit. Born of water is baptism, and born of the Spirit is receiving the Holy Ghost. In order to be baptized, one must first bring forth fruit worthy of repentance. God does not repent for us, that is something we have to DO. After we are baptized, we must follow the teachings of Christ. Again, this is something we have to DO.

The parable right before the sheep/goats, the talents, makes it obviously clear that the one that is cast out is the one that does nothing. It is only the ones that do their best that enter into the joy of the Lord.

When the scriptures are taken as a whole, there is absolutely no support for your philosophy.

[FormerLDS]

Yes. How does one quilify for etneral life? What did the sheep do that the goats didn't??

THe sheep did the will of the Father. The will of the Father includes visiting the sick and aflicted, visit those in prison, and so on.

Those that are goats will departe into everlasting fire as just saying or believing that "Lord Lord" is enough will be disappointed. It is only those that do the will of the Father that will be in Hevean.

The "will of the Father" differs for the sheep and the goats.

According to the Bible, what is "the will of the father" for those whom the savior does not know?

The goats were rejected because they did not do "the will of the Father".

[Zakuska]

The "will of the Father" differs for the sheep and the goats.

According to the Bible, what is "the will of the father" for those whom the savior does not know?

The goats were rejected because they did not do "the will of the Father".

DO is the operative word there Formerlds and it throws Faith alone under the bus.

PS. Gods will is the same for Both the Sheep and the Goats.

Acts 17 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man

[Vance]

Lets look a little closer at the phrase 'Lord, Lord'. It appears in only one other place- Luke 6:46.

Not quite accurate. BUT Your point has even more validation than you knew.

Matt 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

So what does the "oil" represent?

[volgadon]

Mea culpa.