Parable of Sheep and Goats and salvation requirements

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Aaa...

Excuse my poor english grammer but if you diagram the sentence the "Gift" would by either Grace or Salvation not faith. Faith is the means by which you obtain the grace. (ie Gift of God)

Mmmmmmm Correct. (In a robot voice.)

Faith is not the direct object salvation is.

Consider Ephesians 2:8

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"

His faith is a gift.

I received His faith the very second I believed that His atonement alone was enough for my eternal life. That moment I became a "sheep".

Consider Romans 4.

"19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead , when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised , he was able also to perform . 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed , if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."

What better Christmas present to accept than the free gift of eternal life friends?

You can have that gift right this very second if you would chose to believe.

LDS have allready done what you claim is required for salvation. We believe that Jesus is the Christ and the author of our salvation.

I received His faith the very second I believed that His atonement alone was enough for my eternal life. That moment I became a "sheep".

This is not what the parable or the sciptures teach. I cannot find any were were Jesus sheep were called "His sheep the moment the believed that His atonement alone was enought for their eternal life". I see that the sheep did severl good deeds that the goats did not do.

Thank you for living up to the "more equivocation taht we could expect from you".

[FormerLDS]

LDS have allready done what you claim is required for salvation. We believe that Jesus is the Christ and the author of our salvation.

"Eternal life" is required for salvaiton because "eternal life" is salvation. Apart from that, there is no salvation, but eternal death.

If you do not have eternal life, then you do not have salvation.

You can claim "Jesus is the Christ and the author of our salvation", but do you have His free gift of eternal life?

Quote

I received His faith the very second I believed that His atonement alone was enough for my eternal life. That moment I became a "sheep".

This is not what the parable or the sciptures teach. I cannot find any were were Jesus sheep were called "His sheep the moment the believed that His atonement alone was enought for their eternal life". I see that the sheep did severl good deeds that the goats did not do.

Thank you for living up to the "more equivocation taht we could expect from you".

John 5:24 says "Verily, verily, I say unto you , He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

How long would you say it takes to "hear" then "believe"?

However long that is equals how long it takes to become one of the "sheep".

[volgadon]

http://calba-savua.blogspot.com/2009/12/mikveh-israel-or-what-makes-israel-pure.html

In case anyone would like to link to the quote on ritual purification.

Of course, FormerLDS ignored it completely when I posted the first time, but no suprise there.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

"Eternal life" is required for salvaiton because "eternal life" is salvation. Apart from that, there is no salvation, but eternal death.

If you do not have eternal life, then you do not have salvation.

You can claim "Jesus is the Christ and the author of our salvation", but do you have His free gift of eternal life?

John 5:24 says "Verily, verily, I say unto you , He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

How long would you say it takes to "hear" then "believe"?

However long that is equals how long it takes to become one of the "sheep".

Yes accourding to yout interpretation of scripture. I fully and 100% trust that Jesus will save my from my sins.

Your questions are red herrings. THe scriptures do not say "how long" the process takes. What we do know is that if we endure to the end (which is also not defined) then we shall be saved.

Oh and I stated that what you are preaching is not what the parable teaches. You can try and ignore what is plainly taught by prooftexting. It doesn't really bother me much.

[Zakuska]

John 5:24 says "Verily, verily, I say unto you , He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

How long would you say it takes to "hear" then "believe"?

However long that is equals how long it takes to become one of the "sheep".

Presumably the same amount of time it takes to Hear and do...

Matt 7

24

[Tanyan]

http://www.angelfire.com/az2/biblesonnyb/Tracts/MustIbebaptized.htm

[Zakuska]

<SNIPLINK>

Tayan... youd better fix that one. It takes me to a naughty advertisment.

[Zakuska]

http://calba-savua.b...srael-pure.html

In case anyone would like to link to the quote on ritual purification.

Of course, FormerLDS ignored it completely when I posted the first time, but no suprise there.

We may also want to add some BOM into that mix...

2 Ne. 1: 9, 20, 31

9 Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall keep his commandments they shall be blessed upon the face of this land, and there shall be none to molest them, nor to take away the land of their inheritance; and they shall dwell safely forever.

[FormerLDS]

Why then did He connect being born of water and spirit, but in the next sentence he makes a distinction between being born of flesh and being born of spirit?

Here are the verses from John 3:

"3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born ? 5 Jesus answered , Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

What we can PLAINLY see in each verse:

3. Physical birth and spiritual birth.

4. Physical birth.

5. "Born of Water" and Spiritual birth.

6. Physical birth and spiritual birth.

7. Physical birth and spiritual birth.

How can baptism fit into this equation?

Why did He change from water to flesh if they both mean the same thing?

I don't know why, but do know that just because he says "water" does not automatically mean he's referring to "water baptism" (in the ordinance sense of the word).

One could just as easily ask why would he leave out physical birth in verse 5 when the subject isn't "baptism" - it's physical birth vs. spiritual birth.

It is because they do not mean the same thing. Born of water is baptism and is connected with being born of the spirit. Born of the flesh is our mortal or natural birth, which is not connected to being born of the spirit.

Romans 6

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

When we are baptized, as we are laid under the water it symbolizes our natural man dying, and as we are raised up from the water it symbolizes us being resurrected or reborn unto a newness of life.

Again, just because the words water and baptism are used doesn't mean they are referring to each other.

There is another baptism in the scriptures. That happens the moment one believes and is immersed into Jesus Christ, and He in you.

That is "eternal life".

"And we know that the Son of God is come , and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." 1 John 5:20

[Tanyan]

Tayan... youd better fix that one. It takes me to a naughty advertisment.

Zakuska, fixed it I did, SORRY !.

[WalkerW]

I'm going to put it up on my blog too.

A while back, I responded to an individual on Facebook about John 3:5. This is what I said:

The Greek "water and spirit" uses

[WalkerW]

Faith is doing something.

What?

[Tanyan]

http://www.angelfire...Ibebaptized.htm

Repost, In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[FormerLDS]

Yes accourding to yout interpretation of scripture. I fully and 100% trust that Jesus will save my from my sins.

Suppose you were drowning in the middle of a vast ocean.

Which would you rather have:

Trust that someone would save you.

or

Someone actually saving you.

It's easy to say I "trust that Jesus will save me from my sins", but do you have eternal life?

Only those who HAVE eternal life are in the lifeboat.

Your questions are red herrings. THe scriptures do not say "how long" the process takes. What we do know is that if we endure to the end (which is also not defined) then we shall be saved.

"The end" with respect to "endure to the end" refers to "the end" of time when Christ returns to Earth.

My question is simple. How long does it take for someone to choose to believe?

A minute?

An hour?

A year?

A lifetime?

or one single instant?

"For he saith , I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold , now is the accepted time; behold , now is the day of salvation." 2 Cor 6:2

[WalkerW]

Ephesians 2:8

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"

What does "that" refer to?

Touto does not refer to faith. It can't grammatically. Touto is a collective neuter. Both "faith" and "grace" are feminine nouns. Touto refers to the whole process of salvation. Another way of reading this (in order to portray the concept) would be, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and grace-through-faith salvation is not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

Even Evangelicals like Wayne Grudem recognize this: "The word translated

[Vance]

<SNIP>

I realize that you are still reeling from the smack down Walker did to you on these verses, but is this the best you can come up with?

Basically you are admitting that you don't know what "born of the water" means but you are still insisting that we are wrong. Good luck with that.

How can baptism fit into this equation?

It is rather simple in numerous ways.

Being "born of the water" is essential for entrance into the kingdom of God. We know that Jesus was Baptized "to fullfil all righteousness".

We know that to be baptized is "the counsel of God"

Luke 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.

30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

We know that baptism is symbolic of the death, burial and coming forth in newness of life (reborn).

Rom. 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life (reborn).

I don't know why, but do know that just because he says "water" does not automatically mean he's referring to "water baptism" (in the ordinance sense of the word).

The classic "I don't know why but you are wrong" argument.

Oh right I get it. We are just supposed to take your word for it, even though you don't know why.

There is another baptism in the scriptures.

Really?

So where is it and how do you reconcile it with this?

Eph. 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

That is "eternal life".

So, "eternal life" is a baptism? CFR!!

"And we know that the Son of God is come , and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." 1 John 5:20

Could you point out the "baptism" part of that verse? I missed it.

[WalkerW]

John 5:24 says "Verily, verily, I say unto you , He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

How long would you say it takes to "hear" then "believe"?

However long that is equals how long it takes to become one of the "sheep".

"Hath", "Hear" and "follow" are present tense Greek, meaning a continual, habitual action. Only those who continue to hear and follow continue to have everlasting life or are considered His sheep. The sheep reference fits right with Matt. 25. Akouo (Greek "hear") is also at the root of hupakouo (Greek "obey"; not to mention that "hear" was often a synonym for "obey" in the Old Testament. The Hebrew shama meant much more than passively hearing, but denoted an attentive, effective listening and adherence. The Septuagint uses akouo in place of shama).

[Tanyan]

Hey did not one of the Protestant Grandaddys - Martin Luther Believe and teach as Doctrine that one must be baptized in water to be saved and that is still the Lutheran doctrinal positian today ?.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Vance]

"For he saith , I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold , now is the accepted time; behold , now is the day of salvation." 2 Cor 6:2

That sounds familiar.

Alma 34:31 Yea, I would that ye would come forth and harden not your hearts any longer; for behold, now is the time and the day of your salvation; and therefore, if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you.

Ah yes, repentance!

That which brings forgiveness of sin.

Acts 3:19

[WalkerW]

Here are the verses from John 3:

"3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born ? 5 Jesus answered , Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

What we can PLAINLY see in each verse:

3. Physical birth and spiritual birth.

4. Physical birth.

5. "Born of Water" and Spiritual birth.

6. Physical birth and spiritual birth.

7. Physical birth and spiritual birth.

How can baptism fit into this equation?

You can't separate "water and spirit." The Greek links them together. They are not separate. Now, you could argue that it still doesn't reference baptism, but to try to make the water reference physical birth or a separate birth/entity from the spirit reference is just not supported by the text.

I don't know why, but do know that just because he says "water" does not automatically mean he's referring to "water baptism" (in the ordinance sense of the word).

You could argue that it doesn't. And I wouldn't think you were illogical for doing so. The NET commentary views it this way: "Jesus

[volgadon]

A while back, I responded to an individual on Facebook about John 3:5. This is what I said:

Is there anything incorrect about my understanding of the mikveh?

No, nothing wrong with your understanding, as far as I can tell, and it goes well with my post about it being a symbol of the Lord cleaning us from sin.

I've no doubt that formerlds will ignore our posts, he can't engage them and win, and it will be obvious to those reading the thread.

[WalkerW]

No, nothing wrong with your understanding, as far as I can tell, and it goes well with my post about it being a symbol of the Lord cleaning us from sin.

I've no doubt that formerlds will ignore our posts, he can't engage them and win, and it will be obvious to those reading the thread.

From what I've read, the Jewish immersion required male witnesses as well. Is this true? If so, I just find it interesting that we share such a minute detail with the Jewish people in our baptismal practices.

[volgadon]

And still requires them.

[WalkerW]

I realize that you are still reeling from the smack down Walker did to you on these verses, but is this the best you can come up with?

The one with the chair: yeah, that's me (ignore that he is basically in briefs. The chair is the focus. That and the look of "oh crap" on the face of the one about to receive it).

I don't know why, but it makes me giddy when I see others use the term "smack down."

[Zakuska]

Zakuska, fixed it I did, SORRY !.

Not a problem Tanyan.