Parable of Sheep and Goats and salvation requirements

[Tanyan]

It does befuddle the mind doesn't it?!

Especially with such great verses from the Lord such as this:

Luke 6

46

[Vance]

I am sure that merganzerman and echo are much too busy right now to continue this conversation.

[volgadon]

We are supposed to understand words by their original meaning, aren't we?

Moses apparently took over the political form of covenant from a type of treaty, either contemporary or remembered from the not-too-distant past, made by Hittite emperors in what is now central Turkey with their loyal vassals in various parts of the Near East. Moses used the Hittite covenant form to shape the Israelite people

[WalkerW]

http://walkstar.blogspot.com/2009/12/faith-is-believing-what-you-know-aint_27.html

[WalkerW]

Decided to post the blog entry I did on this subject:

There are those who scoff at the school boy, calling him frivolous and shallow. Yet it was the schoolboy who said, "Faith is believing what you know ain't so."

- Mark Twain (Following the Equator, 1897)

It is a shame that the word faith has evolved into such a definition (I realize not exactly the caricature above, but similar enough to invite such a parody). Faith is so often railed against by skeptics and atheists as being belief without evidence, something that a logical human being should reject.[1] Yet, the situation is not helped by our evangelical brothers and sisters who draw a dichotomy between faith and works, largely due to a misunderstanding of Paul's teachings:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph. 2:8-9)

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus...Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Rom. 3:23-24, 27-28)

While the supposed "Impossible Gospel of Mormonism" has already been addressed, understanding the cultural context behind Paul's words is key. The superiority of 'faith in Christ' over 'works of the law' is being advocated by Paul in an attempt to point his fellow Jews towards the true Memra of God. "To the Jew, Wisdom was the Torah. Wisdom was the Law. They believed that the Law was eternal. That it was there when God was there. That Law given to people in scripture and put down in writing was the mind of God...They made the Law the focus of all that they were about...It was as though the Law had an existence and a personality all of its own. It was an extension of Yahweh."[2] For example, in the Bere'**** Rabbah it reads, "The Holy Blessed One looked into the Torah, and created the world." Rabbinical Judaism attempted to move away from the binitarian Logos theology, deeming the 'Two Powers in Heaven' doctrine heretical. Dr. Daniel Boyarin (Taubman Professor of Rabbinic Culture; UC Berkeley) finds "that what marks the Fourth Gospel as a new departure in the history of Judaism is not to be found in its Logos theology at all but in its incarnational Christology."[3] Paul's epistles are filled with the consistent message "that righteousness doesn't come by the Law. It comes by this person, Jesus. And Paul and the other writers are going to say that that person...is God. He is Wisdom. He is the Word. He is the Angel. He is all these things that we associate with embodied deity in the Old Testament. So, you can see that the conflict is just transparent. It's Christ and the Law. Which Wisdom is it? Which Word is it? Is it this person, Jesus of Nazareth, or is it the Torah?"[4] Christianity did not abandon its Jewish roots as many modern Christians would have it do. It instead amplified them and in a sense restored what had been lost (just as the restoration in these latter days has done). Even the incarnation, while the unique aspect of the Christian Logos, was depicted in ancient temple rituals.[5]

LDS philosopher and scholar Blake Ostler has produced some fine work on the LDS concept of God. According to him, "Godhood or the divine nature is the immutable set of essential properties necessary to be divine. There is only one Godhood or divine essence in this sense. Each of the distinct divine persons shares this set of great-making properties which are severally necessary and jointly sufficient for their possessor to be divine...The unity of the divine persons falls short of identity but is much more intimate than merely belonging to the same class of individuals. There are distinct divine persons, but hardly separated or independent divine persons. In the divine life there is no alienation, isolation, insulation, secretiveness or aloneness. The divine persons exist in a unity that includes loving, inter-penetrating awareness of another who is also in one's self...Humans may share the same divinity as the divine persons through grace by becoming one with the divine persons in the same sense that they are one with each other. However, humans are eternally subordinate to and dependent upon their relationship of loving unity with the divine persons for their status as gods."[6] He goes on to say that "this doctrine of divinity also entails a particular doctrine of grace...[According to "New Perspectives on Paul"], Paul taught that persons enter into a covenant relationship with God through grace alone, but once in the relationship one must abide the conditions of the covenant to remain in Christ. The conditions of the covenant for Paul included the law of love taught by Jesus. Further, in Paul's works grace is not seen as inconsistent with judgment and reward by works...The commandments merely outline the way we must act to avoid injuring the relationship of covenant love that God has offered to us. Thus, the relationship is the primary consideration protected by invoking obedience to commandments. There is no sense of earning the relationship by keeping the commandments. We keep the commandments to maintain our fidelity with God...Persons are accepted as justified when they accept Christ as their Lord and agree to obey the covenant conditions. One is justified when one enters into the relationship, for acceptance into the relationship is justification. One has life in Christ as a result of entering the covenant relationship. Through faithfulness to the covenant conditions, one is thereafter sanctified in the sense that the Holy Ghost makes the person over in the image of God which was lost through the fall. Through sanctification, a person is made holy as God is holy. Through grace, persons are made "partakers of the divine" nature by being purified and becoming pure as He is pure. (1 Peter 1:13-22; 2 Peter 1:3-4; 1 John 3:1-2) Thus, the Mormon doctrine of divinity entails that divinity is humanity fully mature in the grace of Christ."[7] Ostler notes that "the key to the doctrine of grace" is a "covenant relationship with the divine persons in unconditional love." Seeing "God as a community of divine persons" allows us to see grace as an example of "the greatest conceivable love."[8]

We find the oneness of the Godhead and the means of entering this oneness described in Doctrine & Covenants Section 20:

[The] Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen. And we know that all men must repent and believe on the name of Jesus Christ, and worship the Father in his name, and endure in faith on his name to the end, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God. And we know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true; And we know also, that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength. But there is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God; Therefore let the church take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation; Yea, and even let those who are sanctified take heed also. (D&C 20:28-34; emphasis mine)

Passages such as this are often ignored by our critics. Instead, the focus largely falls on the following: "For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Ne. 25:23) The phrase "after all we can do" is harped on as an unbiblical distortion of salvation. What is odd is that the first part of the sentence is ignored: "it is by grace that we are saved." Grace is the saving factor, as demonstrated elsewhere in the Book of Mormon writings:

And remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved. (2 Ne. 10:24)

Know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah. (2 Ne. 2:

I say, if ye should serve [God] with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants. And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you. And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him. And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast? (Mosiah 2:20-24; vs. 34 describes us as

[Echo]

Yes, we can be saved by faith and works.

The requirements to be saved by faith and works is perfection and nothing short of it:

Galatians 3:10 "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

James 2:10 "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Yes, we can be saved by faith and works.

The requirements to be saved by faith and works is perfection and nothing short of it:

Galatians 3:10 "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

James 2:10 "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

NO that is not what those verse of scripture say. They say that if you were to keep the whole law, and nothing more perfectly, then you be saved. Incedentaly that would also mean that you don't need Christ as you were saved by your own efforts of keeping the law perfectly.

There is no mention in those verses saying that to be saved by faith and works, means that you must live a perfect life. Or that faith with out works saves you but the second you think that faith and works will save you that one is mistaken and needs to be perfect.

tell me what separates the sheep from the goats. We have gone on for pages now and not one "saved by faith alone" crowd has even given an answer that is supported by the text.

I am not interested in your private interpretation /misrepresentations of the bible.

The way you posted this verses it would seem that you think that you can do what ever you want just as long as you have faith.

[Echo]

There is no mention in those verses saying that to be saved by faith and works, means that you must live a perfect life.

No unclean person can enter into heaven, **ALL** sin must be forgiven.

[Vance]

Repentance (a work) brings forgiveness of sin.

Acts 3:19

[volgadon]

Echo, what does the atonement do?

[Zakuska]

To Add to Vances list...

1. 1 Jn. 1: 9 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[Echo]

"Repentance is sometimes a painful process, but it leads to forgiveness and lasting peace. Through the prophet Isaiah, the Lord said, "Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool" (Isaiah 1:18). In this dispensation the Lord has promised, "He who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more" (D&C 58:42). Repentance includes the following elements: ...

Abandonment of Sin. Although confession is an essential element of repentance, it is not enough. The Lord has said, "By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins

[Vance]

"Repentance . . . <SNIP> . . . (emphasis mine)

TRUE!!!

Forgiveness requires forsaking sin.

TRUE!!

No unclean thing can enter heaven. You must be 100% forgiven.

TRUE!!

You therefore must be 100% perfect. All before you die:

FALSE!!

Jesus said, (D&C 64:10) I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

I am not sure why Echo has taken it upon himself to declare who Jesus will or will not forgive.

Clearly, repentance brings forgiveness. But that doesn't prevent Jesus from forgiving additionally.

Ether 12:27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

2 Cor. 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Moro. 10:32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

[Calm]

Forgiveness requires forsaking sin. No unclean thing can enter heaven. You must be 100% forgiven. You therefore must be 100% perfect.

And All before you die:

2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

Hebrews 9:27 "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,"

This might work if you are arguing with some nonLDS Christian, but LDS believe that repentance and forgiveness can continue up until the time of judgment which is not immediately following death.

Biblically there is support for this where Christ goes to teach before his Ascension those who had died prior to his own death. Why bother teaching them if there was no possible change in judgment for them?

[Echo]

Jesus said, (D&C 64:10) I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

"and IF ye shall deny yourselves of ALL ungodliness...THEN is his grace sufficient for you" Mor 10:32

Ether 12:27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

2 Cor. 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

There is a difference between "weakness" and "sin." It is not a sin to have a health problem or handicap, it is however a weakness to have a health problem or handicap.

Moro. 10:32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

*IF* you deny *ALL* ungodliness. Perfection is required to be forgiven.

[Vance]

"and IF ye shall deny yourselves of ALL ungodliness...THEN is his grace sufficient for you" Mor 10:32

There is a difference between "weakness" and "sin." It is not a sin to have a health problem or handicap, it is however a weakness to have a health problem or handicap.

*IF* you deny *ALL* ungodliness. Perfection is required to be forgiven.

Echo,

You seem to think that it is impossible to

1) Love God with all your heart, might, mind and strength.

2) Repent from all your sins.

Do you think that a person who follows the Spirit will always commit sin?

You seem to think that Biblical "perfection" is impossible.

2 Chr. 15:17 But the high places were not taken away out of Israel: nevertheless the heart of Asa was perfect all his days.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

[Echo]

This might work if you are arguing with some nonLDS Christian, but LDS believe that repentance and forgiveness can continue up until the time of judgment which is not immediately following death.

Biblically there is support for this where Christ goes to teach before his Ascension those who had died prior to his own death. Why bother teaching them if there was no possible change in judgment for them?

If your wrong and I am right, It will be too late for you once you die. You will spend eternity weeping and gnashing your teeth because there you will find out that there is no time after death to repent.

Biblically, there is no support for your belief at all. As scripture cleary states, judgement is based on things done WHILE IN THE BODY. We do not have a body once we die.

2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

And Hebrews 9:27 "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,"

This verse above clearly states that once we die, we face the judgement. Nothing has been added to either of those verses that says what you are saying. When we add to God's word what it does not say it is dangerous:

Proverbs 30:6 "Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar"

On this doctrine, adding to his word will prove fatal to the soul who believes he has more time after death when in reality, he doesn't.

[Vance]

2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

And Hebrews 9:27 "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,"

Notice that these epistles were written to those who had heard and ACCEPTED the gospel. Those that didn't get the chance to hear the gospel "while in the body" are not necessarily included in these statements.

Just because you are losing the debate doesn't mean that you need to become judgmental.

Those that hear the gospel while in the body know that;

Alma 34:32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

But we also know that;

2 Ne. 9:25 Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him.

[Echo]

Echo,

You seem to think that it is impossible to

1) Love God with all your heart, might, mind and strength.

2) Repent from all your sins.

Only the converted (those saved by faith alone) are enabled to freely Love God will all their heart, might, mind and strength.

Repentance (keeping in mind that my definition of repentance and yours differ) is something God works in us therefore it isn't our "work" but "his work" in us.

Romans 2:4 "not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?"

Do you think that a person who follows the Spirit will always commit sin?

You seem to think that Biblical "perfection" is impossible.

2 Chr. 15:17 But the high places were not taken away out of Israel: nevertheless the heart of Asa was perfect all his days.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

[Zakuska]

If your wrong and I am right, It will be too late for you once you die. You will spend eternity weeping and gnashing your teeth because there you will find out that there is no time after death to repent.

Biblically, there is no support for your belief at all. As scripture cleary states, judgement is based on things done WHILE IN THE BODY. We do not have a body once we die.

2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

And Hebrews 9:27 "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,"

This verse above clearly states that once we die, we face the judgement. Nothing has been added to either of those verses that says what you are saying. When we add to God's word what it does not say it is dangerous:

So if you are right then man is judged right after death correct?

Proverbs 30:6 "Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar"

On this doctrine, adding to his word will prove fatal to the soul who believes he has more time after death when in reality, he doesn't.

My question is... how can your private interpretation be correct when the Bibe tells us that Judgement does not come for quite a Loooooong time after death.

1. <LI class=searchitem>

Acts 17: 31 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. <LI class=searchitem>Rom. 2: 16 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. <LI class=searchitem>Col. 2: 16 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: <A href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_tim/4/8#8">2 Tim. 4: 8 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

[Echo]

Notice that these epistles were written to those who had heard and ACCEPTED the gospel. Those that didn't get the chance to hear the gospel "while in the body" are not necessarily included in these statements.

No one can be saved except through the gospel. This life is the time they have to hear it.

Just because you are losing the debate ...

We are in a search for truth together and not in a debate. It's not about who's winning or losing. It's about your love for truth and my love for truth and about love for each other. Everybody loses in a debate. Lets let God's word alone be the measure of what is truth rather than human opinion of who's winning or losing. It's God's opinion alone that counts.

[Zakuska]

No one can be saved except through the gospel. This life is the time they have to hear it.

Bingo... This life incudes the time spent on the other side of the veil. Other wise there would have been no reason for Christ or his Apostles to preach in the spirit world.

[Echo]

So if you are right then man is judged right after death correct?

My question is... how can your private interpretation be correct when the Bibe tells us that Judgement does not come for quite a Loooooong time after death.

1. <LI class=searchitem>

Acts 17: 31 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. <LI class=searchitem>Rom. 2: 16 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. <LI class=searchitem>Col. 2: 16 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: <A href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_tim/4/8#8">2 Tim. 4: 8 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Our eternal destiny (heaven or hell) is decided immediatley upon our death. Believers go to heaven through faith alone, unbelievers go to hell.

2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

They will be judged for their works in the later time of the judgement

But this is off topic and sidetracking the discussion, I would like to discuss perfection.

[Echo]

Bingo... This life incudes the time spent on the other side of the veil. Other wise there would have been no reason for Christ or his Apostles to preach in the spirit world.

This is another discussion.

[Vance]

Romans 2:4 "not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?"

Notice that it "leads" us toward repentance, but it doesn't make us do it. You know the old saying, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink it"?

I am perfect. What makes me perfect? Faith alone in the sacrifice of Jesus...Hebrews 10:14 "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy"

And who are "those who are being made holy"? They are the ones repenting from all their sins.