Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Do you "Listen" or "Submit" if you don't DO what he tells you to?Luke 646
volgadon Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 He tells us to believe. We listen.Do you hearken, or does it go in through one ear and out the next?
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Echo,I get it that you won't admit that obedience is needed for salvation, because to do so you would have to change.Just keep in mind the second quote in my signature line.You don't get it then. Obedience isn't needed for salvation, therefore I desire to change.How about you? Obedience is needed for salvation, yet you don't change.
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 But that right there throughs the whole grace alone / faith alone argument in the garbage. God did his part but it still entailed their participaction and them DOING something. As Paul Argues... for grace to be truley grace there can be no strings attached. If God did it ALL. There can be no participation or condition on us. Yet Paul places all sorts of conditions."IF you coffess with the lips the Lord Jesus AND believe in thy heart you shall be saved." (Romans 10) Yet another place where FAITH is accompained by a work (not faith alone) for slavation in Pauls writing.They lived because they looked, not because they first overcame their sin. They believed because God enabled that belief.
volgadon Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 You don't get it then. Obedience isn't needed for salvation, therefore I desire to change.How about you? Obedience is needed for salvation, yet you don't change.So if faith in Christ is needed for salvation, does that mean that you don't really desire to have faith in the Lord? That you have faith only because you have to?
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 We have to obey His commandments if we love Him. Does that make us a slave? If you love him, you will obey his commandments because you want to, not because you have to.Edited to add; Isn't obedience something we do because we want to?yes
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Let me see if I understand Echo correctly.Making changes in our life, excersizing mastery over self and renouncing sin and ungodliness, aligning our lives with God's will won't enable us to benefit from the atonement or let us love god with all our heart, might and mind, but if we say I believe in Jesus then that all suddenly appears?Let me put it this way. If you have to overcome your sin to be forgiven, how does the atonement benefit you?
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 You still have to choose, so agency is not overridden.If I want to get some water to drink I have to turn the faucet on, or open the bottle, or draw water from the well, or go to the spring or stream.But when you turn on the faucet, open the bottle or draw water from the well or go to the spring or stream, you are serving whom? Who drinks the water?
volgadon Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Let me put it this way. If you have to overcome your sin to be forgiven, how does the atonement benefit you?Christ paid the penalty for them, but if I keep on sinning without trying to overcome them, then in effect, it is a licence to sin.
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Actually, it is both.The Gospel is "good news" the keyword is NEWS. News is something you read not do.
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Do you hearken, or does it go in through one ear and out the next?Well if you have to ask then your admitting you don't even read all of my posts
volgadon Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 But when you turn on the faucet, open the bottle or draw water from the well or go to the spring or stream, you are serving whom? Who drinks the water?Ahh, you are changing the rules, so to speak.The water was to illustrate the principle of agency. Let me suggest another one.I can choose to have a meaningful relationship with someone, or I can choose not to.If I do choose the former, then I have to work at it, don't I?
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 So if faith in Christ is needed for salvation, does that mean that you don't really desire to have faith in the Lord? That you have faith only because you have to?No. The reason is because faith isn't something I can take credit for, God enabled me to believe just as he enabled the Isrealites to look at the snake and live.
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Christ paid the penalty for them, but if I keep on sinning without trying to overcome them, then in effect, it is a licence to sin.You have to pay him back though. So your really paying the penalty yourself.
volgadon Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 No. The reason is because faith isn't something I can take credit for, God enabled me to believe just as he enabled the Isrealites to look at the snake and live.Cut the crap.In order to be saved we must believe, right? So if we must do it then we don't really want to do it?
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Ahh, you are changing the rules, so to speak.The water was to illustrate the principle of agency. Let me suggest another one.I can choose to have a meaningful relationship with someone, or I can choose not to.If I do choose the former, then I have to work at it, don't I?But then it's back to my illustration with the freind mowing the lawn. If he lays down the condition that he will be my freind if I mow the lawn, then when I mow the lawn, who I am serving?
volgadon Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 You have to pay him back though. So your really paying the penalty yourself.You are right, I do have to pay him back. He asks me to love him and be obedient to him.I'm not paying the penalty myself, unless you consider than not commiting sin is a penalty. Fornication and murder are so wonderful, that the penalty is to be denied them?
volgadon Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 But then it's back to my illustration with the freind mowing the lawn. If he lays down the condition that he will be my freind if I mow the lawn, then when I mow the lawn, who I am serving?Are you saying that you don't want salvation?
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Cut the crap. Cut the sin. Tell me why you don't obey the commandments? Don't you love God? Why don't you want to obey God? Is it because like me, you don't want to mow his lawn because it is a requirement?In order to be saved we must believe, right? So if we must do it then we don't really want to do it?Faith isn't a requirement to salvation. Salvation causes faith.There is a sale on motorbikes in the newspaper. The fact that you believe what you read doesn't mean that it caused the sale on the bike.
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 You are right, I do have to pay him back. He asks me to love him and be obedient to him.I'm not paying the penalty myself, unless you consider than not commiting sin is a penalty. Fornication and murder are so wonderful, that the penalty is to be denied them?Then Jesus is serving himself. (selfish)
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Are you saying that you don't want salvation?No I am not saying that I don't want salvation. I am saying that if I mow someone's law so that they will be freinds with me, I am self serving. I am doing it for what I can get out of it. I am self serving. (selfish)If I mow the lawn when it isn't required of me, I am serving my freind.
volgadon Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 No I am not saying that I don't want salvation. I am saying that if I mow someone's law so that they will be freinds with me, I am self serving. I am doing it for what I can get out of it. I am self serving. (selfish)If I mow the lawn when it isn't required of me, I am serving my freind.By your own logic, if you want salvation and the requirement is to believe, then your belief is selfish and self-serving.you are still serving your friend, as mowing the lawn is the service, whether required or not.
volgadon Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Cut the sin. Tell me why you don't obey the commandments? Don't you love God? Why don't you want to obey God? Is it because like me, you don't want to mow his lawn because it is a requirement?I do apologise for being coarse, it was uncalled for.I am cutting the sin, however, it is a process. I obey God as much as I am able to, but he knows my weaknesses and helps me overcome them.I assume that you are aware of the parable of the two brothers.The father required them to do something. The eldest said yes, but did nothing. The younger refused, but then felt remorse and out of duty went and did what the father required.Who was the selfish one here?Faith isn't a requirement to salvation. Salvation causes faith.I wonder how you reached that conclusion when Christ himself said to Nicodemus that whoever will believe in Christ will be saved.There is a sale on motorbikes in the newspaper. The fact that you believe what you read doesn't mean that it caused the sale on the bike.And the fact that you read an add won't lead to you getting a discounted motorbyke if you don't do anything about it, right?
volgadon Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Then Jesus is serving himself. (selfish)I don't know where your ridiculous notion that anything that benefits one's self is neccessarily bad or wrong. In fact, wouldn't you agree that the whole protestant notion of us being created to praise God makes him the most selfish and self-centered being in the world?
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 By your own logic, if you want salvation and the requirement is to believe, then your belief is selfish and self-serving.you are still serving your friend, as mowing the lawn is the service, whether required or not.My belief isn't a requirement.
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