Parable of Sheep and Goats and salvation requirements

[Echo]

Some one better go read the Parable again. "Beleif" is no where even mentioned in the Parable.

Actions and doing is the only thing that is mentioned.

John also agrees that "Faith AND Works" are marks of a true Beleiver, a Sheep.

1 John 3

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

Notice here (Verse 10) how there is no mentioning as Echo did that "He who beleieves his sin was over come by faith alone", is a child of God.

He who DOES righteousness is a Sheep period. (See verse 10)

Something tells me we have a Blind Goat dawning a wooley costume posting here.

What does your scripture here say? "Whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God." Do you doeth righteousness? If not, you are not of God.

Faith and works salvation doesn't produce good works because it is slavery to do good works rather than freedom to do good works. Anything done in slavery isn't a good work.

The goats thought their faith and works saved them, those works weren't considered good works even though they thought they were good works. If I mow my freinds lawn because it is a requirement to his being my freind, it isn't a good work. If I mow my freinds lawn even though it isn't a requirement, then it is a good work.

[Zakuska]

This is really good to hear! I also want to keep them, even though they aren't a requirement for my salvation.

How can you say that with a straight face?

Luke 6: 46

46

[Vance]

I have never seen an LDS person point out the sins of others in order to lead them to repent.

Do you think this pointing out has to occur in public for it to be valid?

Matt. 18:15

[clairc829]

Numbers 21:4-9

"⁴ They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; ⁵ they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the desert? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!"

⁶ Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. ⁷ The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us." So Moses prayed for the people. ⁸ The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." ⁹ So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived."

1) What SIN did the Israelites commit in verse 5?

2) What consequence did the Lord send in verse 6?

3) In verse 9 what one thing "alone" did the Israelites have to do to live?

But that is not in the parable of the sheep and goats, and they had to do more than believe they had to look.

[Echo]

Oh really, can you point me to the exact verses of scripture that tell me that from the parable. I am not interested in proof text of what you think Paul is talking about.

I do not see one mention of the goats being damned because they didn't believe Christ. Show me those verses.

We believe Paul's words are God's words. From our perspective, if your "not interested" in Paul, your "not interested" in God. We believe ALL scripture has equal authority and is God breathed, inspired and true. I therefore will use All of scripture without succumbing to LDS beliefs that only some of scripture is God breathed.

2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"

However, Jesus clearly taught those who believe have eternal life. They are the sheep:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The goats do not believe, they are condemned.

Mark 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

[Echo]

Is Paul? No. He reaches forward to abtain it. Pauls Faith isn't ALONE.

I agree, faith isn't alone. We do reach forward to obtain the righteousness that we already have in Christ by faith alone.

The righteousness we already have in Christ by faith alone is what qualifies us for eternal life.

Because of that, now we want to become in reality, what we already are in Christ by faith alone.

When we reach forward to obtain it, we do it only out of love and thanks. It isn't a requirement for salvation.

Salvation causes this desire to reach forward.

[Zakuska]

We believe Paul's words are God's words. From our perspective, if your "not interested" in Paul, your "not interested" in God. We believe ALL scripture has equal authority and is God breathed, inspired and true. I therefore will use All of scripture without succumbing to LDS beliefs that only some of scripture is God breathed.

2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"

And yet Paul never claimed his own words were scriptutre. You got a bit of a problem there.

However, Jesus clearly taught those who believe have eternal life. They are the sheep:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The goats do not believe, they are condemned.

Mark 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Nothing about Sheep or Goats in either one of those verses.

However the Sheep and Goats are clearly identified in the locations Echo failed to read...

Matt 25

31

[Vance]

We believe Paul's words are God's words.

Does Paul give God the credit for them or does Paul claim them?

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

1 Cor. 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 Cor. 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Gal. 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

Eph. 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Philip. 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Col. 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,

1 Thes. 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thes. 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Tim. 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

2 Tim. 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God

[Echo]

Not only is obedience necessary for the Holy Ghost, but for Savation period...

Heb. 5: 9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The word "obey" can mean "listen to" or "submit"

[Zakuska]

I agree, faith isn't alone. We do reach forward to obtain the righteousness that we already have in Christ by faith alone.

Evangelical Double speak.

The righteousness we already have in Christ by faith alone is what qualifies us for eternal life.

More Evangelical double speak.

Because of that, now we want to become in reality, what we already are in Christ by faith alone.

And yet even more.

When we reach forward to obtain it, we do it only out of love and thanks. It isn't a requirement for salvation.

Luke 6 disagrees.

44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

46

[Echo]

Bingo. Something they had to DO. That throws the whole "grace alone" "faith alone" false dichotomy devils doctrine in the garbage from the very get go. They had to DO something.

What did they have to do?

[Zakuska]

The word "obey" can mean "listen to" or "submit"

Do you "Listen" or "Submit" if you don't DO what he tells you to?

Luke 6

46

[Vance]

What did they have to do?

Echo,

You are giving the impression that you aren't reading our posts.

[Zakuska]

What did they have to do?

God through his living prophet told them to "Look". When they "obeyed" and "looked" they were saved. When they hardened their hearts and didn't obey and failed to look they parished.

[Vance]

Echo,

I get it that you won't admit that obedience is needed for salvation, because to do so you would have to change.

Just keep in mind the second quote in my signature line.

[Echo]

Haha this is great. Do you know the only thing that was required to be healed was that they look. No where in those verses does it say that they had to believe they would be healed, only that they had to look. Looking at something is a work, or an act of doing something. Care to try again? You are only making a stronger case for the LDS position here.

This is great. I am glad you see what I see. The only thing that was required to live was to "look"

The Israelites sinned and the consequence was death.

In the same way, your sins and mine have the consequence of spiritual death. Spiritual death equals eternity in outer darkness.

The Isrealites lived because they looked at the snake.

In the same way, we "look" at Jesus to be saved from spiritual death.

Is looking a work here? They couldn't look if the snake wasn't lifted up or if there was no snake. They couldn't look if God hadn't said they could look and live. They lived and looked because God enabled them to live and look by giving them something to look at and be healed. They couldn't "do anything" if it weren't for what God first did for them.

[Zakuska]

This is great. I am glad you see what I see. The only thing that was required to live was to "look"

The Israelites sinned and the consequence was death.

In the same way, your sins and mine have the consequence of spiritual death. Spiritual death equals eternity in outer darkness.

The Isrealites lived because they looked at the snake.

In the same way, we "look" at Jesus to be saved from spiritual death.

Is looking a work here? They couldn't look if the snake wasn't lifted up or if there was no snake. They couldn't look if God hadn't said they could look and live. They lived and looked because God enabled them to live and look by giving them something to look at and be healed. They couldn't "do anything" if it weren't for what God first did for them.

But that right there throughs the whole grace alone / faith alone argument in the garbage. God did his part but it still entailed their participaction and them DOING something.

As Paul Argues... for grace to be truley grace there can be no strings attached. If God did it ALL. There can be no participation or condition on us. Yet Paul places all sorts of conditions.

"IF you coffess with the lips the Lord Jesus AND believe in thy heart you shall be saved." (Romans 10)

Yet another place where FAITH is accompained by a work (not faith alone) for slavation in Pauls writing.

[Echo]

How can you say that with a straight face?

Luke 6: 46

46

[Zakuska]

Yes, Jesus said: "If you love me keep my commandments." The key is: "IF YOU LOVE ME"

Love is something you do because you want to. It isn't love when you have to do it.

Its not?

I argue that it can be both.

[Vance]

Yes, Jesus said: "If you love me keep my commandments." The key is: "IF YOU LOVE ME"

Love is something you do because you want to. It isn't love when you have to do it.

We have to obey His commandments if we love Him. Does that make us a slave?

Edited to add; Isn't obedience something we do because we want to?

[volgadon]

Let me see if I understand Echo correctly.

Making changes in our life, excersizing mastery over self and renouncing sin and ungodliness, aligning our lives with God's will won't enable us to benefit from the atonement or let us love god with all our heart, might and mind, but if we say I believe in Jesus then that all suddenly appears?

[Echo]

Do you think this pointing out has to occur in public for it to be valid?

It doesn't have to be public to be valid however when a person sins against another in public, they will be quick to apologize in public. I see no signs of this which causes doubt that it occurs at all in private.

And how is this different from,

"if you love me, keep my commandments"?

And how is that different than showing love by being obedient to His commandments? Is your agency to choose obedience eliminated?

Your agency to choose obedience is eliminated because you HAVE to do it if you want him to be your friend.

To show your love for God by being obedient? Really?

It is slavery to be obedient because you have to.

It isn't slavery to be obedient because you "want" to when you don't have to.

But being disobedient to God's commandments is freedom? From what? Sin?

You aren't comprehending what I am saying. That is why "this is getting to weird" for you.

And you don't want to obey God just on the principle that He expects you to do it or else He will know that you don't love Him?

This is getting to weird to continue.

What is "getting to weird" to you, is that you aren't comprehending anything I say.

[Echo]

And yet Paul never claimed his own words were scriptutre. You got a bit of a problem there.

Nothing about Sheep or Goats in either one of those verses.

However the Sheep and Goats are clearly identified in the locations Echo failed to read...

Matt 25

31

[volgadon]

Your agency to choose obedience is eliminated because you HAVE to do it if you want him to be your friend.

You still have to choose, so agency is not overridden.

If I want to get some water to drink I have to turn the faucet on, or open the bottle, or draw water from the well, or go to the spring or stream.

[volgadon]

The gospel isn't something you DO, it is something you BELIEVE.

Actually, it is both.