Parable of Sheep and Goats and salvation requirements

[Echo]

I do apologise for being coarse, it was uncalled for.

I commend you for apologizing and I forgive you now even before you work at overcoming.

I assume that you are aware of the parable of the two brothers.

The father required them to do something. The eldest said yes, but did nothing. The younger refused, but then felt remorse and out of duty went and did what the father required.

Who was the selfish one here?

Before answering that question, we have to understand the cause of the relationship between the Father and his two sons.

I wonder how you reached that conclusion when Christ himself said to Nicodemus that whoever will believe in Christ will be saved.

And the fact that you read an add won't lead to you getting a discounted motorbyke if you don't do anything about it, right?

But if you do something about it and get the discounted motorbike, can you take credit for the workmanship of the bike itself?

Salvation is the workmanship of Jesus alone. Faith doesn't cause salvation anymore than getting a bike causes the bike to exist.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

We believe Paul's words are God's words. From our perspective, if your "not interested" in Paul, your "not interested" in God. We believe ALL scripture has equal authority and is God breathed, inspired and true. I therefore will use All of scripture without succumbing to LDS beliefs that only some of scripture is God breathed.

2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"

However, Jesus clearly taught those who believe have eternal life. They are the sheep:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The goats do not believe, they are condemned.

Mark 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Since you completly ignored my request I think we are done here. I am not interested in your proof text of what you think Paul is saying. Stick ot the parable. This is your last chance. What did the sheep do that the goats didn't? There is nothing in that parable about "the sheep having faith". Both the Goats and the Sheep called Jesus "Master", that would mean that both already believed. If some one thought Jesus was bunck why would they call him "Master"?

And just was is scripture?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Let me put it this way. If you have to overcome your sin to be forgiven, how does the atonement benefit you?

WHo said anything about that? The only way to overcome your sins is through the atonement. I think you are missing the boat here.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

My belief isn't a requirement.

It is not? Are all men saved then? If the answer is no, why are all men not saved?

[Echo]

I don't know where your ridiculous notion that anything that benefits one's self is neccessarily bad or wrong.

In fact, wouldn't you agree that the whole protestant notion of us being created to praise God makes him the most selfish and self-centered being in the world?

Well if it's self serving, then it really is selfish. God wants us to be selfless, to serve others expecting nothing in return.

We praise God because of his selflessness in what he has done for us.

For example, you apologized to me not expecting anything in return, you didn't first demand that I forgive you if you apologize, you made no demands whatsoever and you didnt make even a single small excuse for your sin. That is a very selfLESS (unselfish) thing to do! And I praised you for it! Did you demand I praise you for it? NO you didn't. You see?

I also forgave you without first demanding that you overcome your sin first. But you didn't demand that I forgive you. You took the risk that I might not forgive you, you took the risk that I might try to withhold forgiveness until a certain amount of time passed in which you proved to me that you truly have overcome your sin. You took the risk that I would consider you unworthy.

Isn't it easier to overcome your sins when you know you are forgiven first than it would be if I held this against you until a certain amount of time had passed and your proved yourself?

[Echo]

Since you completly ignored my request I think we are done here. I am not interested in your proof text of what you think Paul is saying. Stick ot the parable. This is your last chance. What did the sheep do that the goats didn't? There is nothing in that parable about "the sheep having faith". Both the Goats and the Sheep called Jesus "Master", that would mean that both already believed. If some one thought Jesus was bunck why would they call him "Master"?

And just was is scripture?

I didn't ignore requests. I answered, you found my answer insufficient.

You believe "faith and works" saves. Where in the parable does it talk about the sheep having faith?

And just was is scripture?

Scripture is every word from Genesis to Revelation.

[Echo]

WHo said anything about that? The only way to overcome your sins is through the atonement. I think you are missing the boat here.

Fill me in, that is why I am asking questions.

[volgadon]

Before answering that question, we have to understand the cause of the relationship between the Father and his two sons.

I am reminded of the words of the inimicable Frank Spencer of Some Mothers Do Ave Em.

The psychologist: -What was the relationship between your mother and yourself?

Frank (looking utterly bewildered): -She was my mother, I was her son.

[Echo]

It is not? Are all men saved then? If the answer is no, why are all men not saved?

The answer is in my post #551

[Calm]

If your wrong and I am right, It will be too late for you once you die. You will spend eternity weeping and gnashing your teeth because there you will find out that there is no time after death to repent.

And if I chose to believe based on fear rather than the Spirit, I would likely accept your interpretation just in case.

Proverbs 30:6 "Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar"

On this doctrine, adding to his word will prove fatal to the soul who believes he has more time after death when in reality, he doesn't.

As will ignoring his words.

I believe in continuing revelation. There is nothing unbiblical about that...the bible itself is an example of continuing revelation. I do not understand those who fear the Bible more than they love to hear the words of God and end up twisting the Bible through that fear and closing the door on God.

[volgadon]

My belief isn't a requirement.

And thus thoroughly unbiblical.

[volgadon]

I commend you for apologizing and I forgive you now even before you work at overcoming.

Thank you, but you are a little too late, apologising is part of overcoming.

Before answering that question, we have to understand the cause of the relationship between the Father and his two sons.

Blindingly obvious, I would have thought.

But if you do something about it and get the discounted motorbike, can you take credit for the workmanship of the bike itself?

Salvation is the workmanship of Jesus alone. Faith doesn't cause salvation anymore than getting a bike causes the bike to exist.

Who said a word about taking credit? If I want salvation to have an effect upon me, then I've got to do something about it. That does not mean that I now claim to be the saviour of the world, or even the saviour of my soul.

And you are right, faith doesn't cause it, works are needed.

[LeSellers]

We believe ALL scripture has equal authority and is God breathed, inspired and true. I therefore will use All of scripture without succumbing to LDS beliefs that only some of scripture is God breathed.

This last sentence is a falsehood. You do not "use All of scripture" and you most assuredly do "believe that only some of scripture is God breathed":

• You reject the Book of Mormon.
• You do not treat the Doctrine and Covenants as scripture.
• You haven't read the Pearl of Great Price for inspiration.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

The word "obey" can mean "listen to" or "submit"

And the word "submit" means do the will of the sovereign. Even "listen to" means apply (an act) the things being heard.

Lehi

[Echo]

This last sentence is a falsehood. You do not "use All of scripture" and you most assuredly do "believe that only some of scripture is God breathed":

• You reject the Book of Mormon.
• You do not treat the Doctrine and Covenants as scripture.
• You haven't read the Pearl of Great Price for inspiration.

Lehi

I don't believe those 3 things you listed are scripture. I believe "all" of scripture is contained in the Bible. The thing is, the LDS believes that the Bible is scripture but not all of it is God's word.

[Zakuska]

I don't believe those 3 things you listed are scripture. I believe "all" of scripture is contained in the Bible. The thing is, the LDS believes that the Bible is scripture but not all of it is God's word.

Is this Gods word?

Gen 3

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

[Vance]

Your agency to choose obedience is eliminated because you HAVE to do it if you want him to be your friend.

False! No one is forced to be obedient.

Now if you WANT to inherit eternal life, then you will WANT to obey the commandments to get it.

Agency is not lost.

It is slavery to be obedient because you have to.

False! No one is forced to be obedient.

Now if you WANT to inherit eternal life, then you will WANT to obey the commandments to get it.

Agency is not lost.

It isn't slavery to be obedient because you "want" to when you don't have to.

True, because if you really WANT eternal life, then you will WANT to do what it takes to get it, which is obedience to God.

You aren't comprehending what I am saying. That is why "this is getting to weird" for you.

That might be because it is illogical. I don't comprehend things that are illogical, at least not very well.

What is "getting to weird" to you, is that you aren't comprehending anything I say.

What was getting weird is that you analogy was totally wacko.

[Vance]

If you love him, you will obey his commandments because you want to, not because you have to.

True, because we want the result, that is eternal life. And when we want eternal life we will want to do what is necessary to get it, which obedience. We make the choice to obey or not to obey depending on whether we really want the result of not.

Agency is NEVER lost by chosing to be obedient to God to receive His greatest gift, which is eternal life.

[Echo]

Is this Gods word?

Gen 3

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

YES! Gods very own word here in Genesis 3:4 tells us that the serpent(satan) said to the woman, ye shall not surely die.

God, through these his own word is telling us the truth of what Satan said to the woman. But God wrote these words, they are his he is revealling truth to us about what Satan did.

[Vance]

But then it's back to my illustration with the freind God mowing the lawn obedience to God. If he God lays down the condition that hHe will be my freind save me if I mow the lawn am obedient to him, then when I mow the lawn am obedient to him, who I am serving?

Your friend God!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I didn't ignore requests. I answered, you found my answer insufficient.

You believe "faith and works" saves. Where in the parable does it talk about the sheep having faith?

Scripture is every word from Genesis to Revelation.

It doesn't, which is the point. THe only think the separates the 2 is that the sheep had good works and vistied the sick and so forth. If only faith saved you then the parable of the sheep and the goats should allude to that. It doesn't though.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The answer is in my post #551

You gave me a non answer. Please answer my question. Are all men saved? If not why not.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I don't believe those 3 things you listed are scripture. I believe "all" of scripture is contained in the Bible. The thing is, the LDS believes that the Bible is scripture but not all of it is God's word.

And were does the bible claim that all "scripture" is found there in. In order for you claim to hold any water you will need to demonstrate this supposed doctrine from the bible. I find it an unbiblical doctrine and thus, I reject it.

[Echo]

Your friend God! self

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Is this Gods word?

Gen 3

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Zak, I see an airplane way over your head here.