Parable of Sheep and Goats and salvation requirements

[merganzerman]

Lets take a closer look...

27 ????????? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ??????????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???????? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ? ???? ??? ???????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ? ????? ?????????? ? ????

28 ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???????? ??? ?????????? ?? ???? ??? ????

29 ???????? ? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?????????? ??? ?? ?????????? ???????

Notice how in verse 28 the "noun 'God' is in the genitive and qualifies the type of" works they are going to do. (ergo: ?? ???? )

In Isolation the verse could be twisted to say want you want it to say but in context it can't be. Since its a direct answer to their Question on what THEY must do, In response to a command that they should WORK for the bread Jesus is going to provide.

If Christ really said the work "was finished" then there was no need for Paul and the other apostles to Work or Labour, to try and Save people. Because everybody would all already be saved.

Romans 11

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

What Christ was saying is that the work God gave him to do was Finished.

There is where you would be wrong.

John 14: 12

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Good post! This thread is progressing well and I can tell, that I'm making you think. This is my version of a "bump" in that I read your post just now and am working on a response.

Thanks.

[Vance]

[The] Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen. And we know that all men must repent and believe on the name of Jesus Christ, and worship the Father in his name, and endure in faith on his name to the end, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God. And we know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true; And we know also, that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength. But there is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God; Therefore let the church take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation; Yea, and even let those who are sanctified take heed also. (D&C 20:28-34; emphasis mine)

What does it mean by "Justification THROUGH the grace"? That is a big differrence for Biblical Christianity teaches quite cleary, Justified BY faith. And you will see that there is a big difference in what the Bible defines as Grace -- as it pertains to salvation.

What "Bibilical Christianity" do you belong to?

Rom. 3: 24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

SMACK!!!

[Vance]

Good post! This thread is progressing well and I can tell, that I'm making you think. This is my version of a "bump" in that I read your post just now and am working on a response.

Thanks.

Do you know what emulation means?

[Tanyan]

Once again ... we are Saved By True Grace [charis] ALONE "Through" True Faith [pistis] ALONE. The Key is the True understanding of that Salvation/Exhaltation Formula.

Salvation Is In Christ the Person.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Zakuska]

SMACK!!!

Double SMACK!

Titus 3: 7

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

[WalkerW]

Good post. I received an even better understanding on the LDS position of grace and the lengths LDS scholars go to explain away the biblical definition of grace. Once again, WalkerW, you have broadened the chasm between what the LDS teaches to be true and what Biblical Christianity teaches to be true. So much so, that one cannot claim Mormonism to be truly Christian --- only in appearance.

And once again you demonstrate that when those trying to monopolize the term and beliefs of "Christians" are presented with modern scholarship (most of which, as I pointed out, was non-LDS), they have nothing to say except "Well...Mormons still aren't Christian!"

Thank for demonstrating once more why no one should care about what you have to say.

[WalkerW]

Do a word search in the lds.org website with the word "debt" -- and you will find it interesting the number of articles that convey that Mormons owe a debt. Technically speaking, utilizing the word "earning" could be in error as far as what Mormons believe. However, the concept still remains that one needs to be worthy enough to receive blessings -- and I believe that would include salvation.

Tell me: how does one who is "eternally indebted" to God pay Him back in full?

Considering we see ourselves as children of God, the following (which I've already provided and you ignored) should better explain our position:

Yet another cultural aspect that is often overlooked is that of kinship. This was at the core of West Semitic tribes. God Himself was seen as the Divine Kinsman, the Divine Ancestor, or the Divine Father. "Children are seen as obligated to their parents, particularly obligated to honor and obey them...Children are held to have incurred a debt to their parents that they can never repay, so that the virtuous person will honor the parents, and "return the favors" bestowed by the parents throughout childhood, for the remainder of their parents' lives...Plutarch, however, insists that parental care must not be given solely, or even chiefly, in the anticipation of receiving one's investment back at a later date...Giving must be free and done in the interest of the recipient, not the interest of the giver, to be noble. The recipient is, however, still obligated to show gratitude."[21] Love was seen as "the bond that holds together those in intimate relationships, the relationships of family and kindred...behavior required by or appropriate to a kinship relationship becomes "gracious" or "altruistic" behavior."[22] Covenants, marriages, adoption, even treaties were rooted in kinship language, namely love language.

21. David A. DeSilva, Honor, Patronage, Kinship & Purity: Unlocking New Testament Culture, 2000

22. Frank Moore Cross, From Epic to Canon: History and Literature in Ancient Israel, 2000

Of course we owe a debt. We are indebted to God. This, however, is not synonymous with employment and it is not synonymous with obligating God. Such is your misunderstanding. The only way to be "worthy" is to remain "in Christ." To do so requires keeping the commandments:

"I am the true ^avine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every ^abranch in me that beareth not ^bfruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he ^cpurgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. ^aAbide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the ^avine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without ^bme ye can do nothing. If a man ^aabide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:1-6)

[Zakuska]

bump.

[merganzerman]

In response to Zakuska's post on January 29th:

For an outsider, a person who does not follow the teachings of the LDS Church, who reads articles from Ensign and from lds.org, you do not miss the fact how Mormons read every Biblical passage through the lens of works. In essence, Mormons cannot accept a free gift that God offers.

John 6:28-29 is a great example. Notice your comments are all about verse 28 while completely ignoring the answer found in verse 29. Yes, the Greek word used in works in verse 28 and your definition for that word is correct. But what does that mean? The disciples are asking Jesus,

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I want to see if we can have some understanding here.

The break down for me is this: You state

"I don't think I ever said doing was unimportant. It is -- as I have stated -- an evidence of faith."

This is what I agree with. That is that our works are evidence of faith.

You say.

"But, it's not a requirement to earn salvation. That was the Pharisees problem."

Too which I will respond with:

I disagree with both sentances. If faith is dead with out works, meaning that you must have works to make faith active, how can works not be required for salvation when those works are required to make faith active or alive to gain salvation?

From post 981

I would like for you to answer my question with a logical and coherant responce. I need this to make sense. So far no one has seriously attempted to answer my qestions.

Can you see the break down? I tried to make this as plain and clear as possible.

If you can break this down to were it makes sense.

[Vance]

Double SMACK!

Titus 3: 7

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Ouch!!! That had to have hurt!

[Vance]

"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus , and you will be saved -- you and your household." Acts 16:31

Can you believe IN Jesus without believing what He taught?

Things like,

Matt. 19:17 . . . but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father

[Vance]

bump

[LeSellers]

One of the things that many Evangelicals like to throw in our faces is the "Great Commission" in Matt 28.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

However, on reading this passage more closely, it rebuts at least two of their primary claims:

1. That baptism is unnecessary for salvation.
   
   Notice that Christ does
   not
   tell the disciples to have the people believe, but that they should
   baptize
   "all nations" (which doesn't exclude the Jews; after all, the first people the Apostles
   did
   teach were the Jews).
   
   
2. That obedience to "all things whatsoever I have commanded you" is not requisite for admittance into the kingdom.
   Don't forget that Jesus had just said that He had all power in heaven and in earth

[Zakuska]

And yet another verse that supports the Parable of the sheep and Goats and negates Evangelical doctrine.

Luke 8: 11, 21

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

[Vance]

And yet another verse that supports the Parable of the sheep and Goats and negates Evangelical doctrine.

Luke 8: 11, 21

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

[Zakuska]

But dontcha know vance... Christ's mother and bretheren are filthy wrags.