Parable of Sheep and Goats and salvation requirements

[Tanyan]

Excellent article. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

You are welcome !. Remember to WALK [something we MUST DO] In The Light as HE [JESUS] is in the Light so as HIS Blood Cleanseth us from all sin.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[merganzerman]

I don't think I ever said doing was unimportant. It is -- as I have stated -- an evidence of faith. But, it's not a requirement to earn salvation. That was the Pharisees problem.

They were:

(23:5) "Everything they do is done for men to see"

(23:12) "For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

They were hypocrites, because they were preaching a false gospel that salvation can be achieved by works AND they weren't practicing what they preached. Here they were religious leaders and they were leading people astray.

Jesus' reserves the harshest punishment for those who lead people astray from false teaching. May that be a warning for all of us.

[Zakuska]

(23:5) "Everything they do is done for men to see"

Please reconcile this with What Jesus taught here...

Matt. 5: 16

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

(23:12) "For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

They were hypocrites, because they were preaching a false gospel that salvation can be achieved by works Alone AND they weren't practicing what they preached. Here they were religious leaders and they were leading people astray.

I fixed it for you.

Jesus' reserves the harshest punishment for those who lead people astray from false teaching. May that be a warning for all of us.

[Vance]

I don't think I ever said doing was unimportant. It is -- as I have stated -- an evidence of faith. But, it's not a requirement to earn salvation. That was the Pharisees problem.

They were:

(23:5) "Everything they do is done for men to see"

(23:12) "For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

They were hypocrites, because they were preaching a false gospel that salvation can be achieved by works AND they weren't practicing what they preached. Here they were religious leaders and they were leading people astray.

Jesus' reserves the harshest punishment for those who lead people astray from false teaching. May that be a warning for all of us.

Why is it that you don't understand the clear and plain words of Jesus in these chapters.

2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses

[merganzerman]

This is the typical evangelical mistake. Works is not the operation that saves. Grace is that operation. Works determine if (salvation or not) and how much (degrees of salvation) grace is applied. Hence there are many requirements for salvation (such as the aforementioned Matthew 25). If being obedient to God is one of them (and it is), then the Bible in no way contains a list of all of them.

Grace is a word used by the LDS church that demonstrates a lack of understanding on what the Bible teaches. Grace is a work -- something that is used -- which goes against what the Bible teaches to be true.

What does the word "grace" mean? Grace is often used to express the concept of kindness given to someone who doesn't deserve it. Put in another way, bestowing underdeserving favor. Theologically speaking, (Eph 2:4-5) grace is that unmerited favor of God given to man who is dead in their sins. Through Jesus, God extended his favor (grace) from an eternity of damnation in outer darkness toward all who have faith in Christ as Lord and Savior.

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." (Romans 5:1) (see also Rom. 5:15-17 to carry that thought)

Here is another good one:

"You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." (Galatians 5:4)

Those who seek salvation by faith AND works are alienating themselves from Christ and have fallen away from God's favor.

(Notice I have not even brought up Ephesians 2:8-9). (If I knew how to put up a smiley face, I would put it up just for Vance.)

With that being said, grace is noted in Paul's letters as a greeting. In other words, grace is that enabling power that allows a person to persevere in the faith. A person is saved by faith alone and by God's grace, we stay in the faith through the power of God's Word -- His means of grace.

My point being is that the LDS Church has a much different definition and understanding of grace than what the Bible teaches to be true and what the universal Christian church embraces to be true.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I don't think I ever said doing was unimportant. It is -- as I have stated -- an evidence of faith. But, it's not a requirement to earn salvation. That was the Pharisees problem.

I want to see if we can have some understanding here.

The break down for me is this: You state

"I don't think I ever said doing was unimportant. It is -- as I have stated -- an evidence of faith."

This is what I agree with. That is that our works are evidence of faith.

You say.

"But, it's not a requirement to earn salvation. That was the Pharisees problem."

Too which I will respond with:

I disagree with both sentances. If faith is dead with out works, meaning that you must have works to make faith active, how can works not be required for salvation when those works are required to make faith active or alive to gain salvation?

Also the Pharisess problem is that they were hypocrites. They claimed to have all these goods works yet they did not have them.

They were:

(23:5) "Everything they do is done for men to see"

(23:12) "For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

They were hypocrites, because they were preaching a false gospel that salvation can be achieved by works AND they weren't practicing what they preached. Here they were religious leaders and they were leading people astray.

Jesus' reserves the harshest punishment for those who lead people astray from false teaching. May that be a warning for all of us.

Notice that being humble is a requirement to be exalted. That is all I will say about this.

BTW preaching a false gospel is not the defintion of a hypocrite. A hypocrite is a person that says one thing but then does another. Look it up. Please.

[Scott26.2]

I don't think I ever said doing was unimportant. It is -- as I have stated -- an evidence of faith. But, it's not a requirement to earn salvation. That was the Pharisees problem.

They were:

(23:5) "Everything they do is done for men to see"

(23:12) "For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

They were hypocrites, because they were preaching a false gospel that salvation can be achieved by works AND they weren't practicing what they preached. Here they were religious leaders and they were leading people astray.

Jesus' reserves the harshest punishment for those who lead people astray from false teaching. May that be a warning for all of us.

merganzerman,

I haven't followed this enitre thread so forgive me if this has been discussed. My question is simple. Could a person who has truly been born again, but whose subsequent life displays an absence of the evidence you speak of, receive salvation?

Scott26.2

[volgadon]

Grace is a word used by the LDS church that demonstrates a lack of understanding on what the Bible teaches.

Using that historical grammatical method you are so fond of, we've shown you that evangelicals don't understand grace the way it was understood when the NT was written.

[merganzerman]

The following verses have been brought up from John 6:26-29:

26 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs, but because you ate the loaves and had your fill.

27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

28 When they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Utilizing the historical-grammatical-scriptural method of interpretation of the Bible, we see that Jesus had just left the crowds after miraculously feeding the 5,000. Here, they thought Jesus was the "bread-King" who would supply all of their daily physical needs. Out of great frustration, Jesus is telling them not to look at the earthly benefits, but seek what is most important and that is spiritual. (I think you would all agree with me up to this point.)

If you see in verse 27 that you must "work" for food that endures to eternal life. At first glance, you might think "Aha! I got Merganzerman here! Here is a proof that you must work to achieve salvation." The answer, you notice, is in verses 28-29. Our eternal life depends on God's work. The work of God is not a work we do for God. It is the work God does in us so we believe in His Son. Faith receives God's work -- most notably Christ's completed work on the cross. That specific work is referred to when Jesus said, "It is finished" just before he died on the cross. God's work was an amazing example of His grace. Notice that the verse does not say, "To believe in the one he has sent and do all you can do to achieve it." No, Just believe.

"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus , and you will be saved -- you and your household." Acts 16:31

[Vance]

What does the word "grace" mean? Grace is often used to express the concept of kindness given to someone who doesn't deserve it. Put in another way, bestowing underdeserving favor.

Funny, but here is a Biblical incident where grace was given BECAUSE OF GOOD WORKS!!

Acts 14:26 And thence sailed to Antioch, from whence they had been recommended to the grace of God for the work which they fulfilled.

So your narrow definition is NOT Biblical at all.

Edited to add another one.

Rom. 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Edited to add another one.

John 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

So grace is given in return for grace. Humm.

[WalkerW]

But, it's not a requirement to earn salvation.

And you once again misrepresent our position. No one is talking about "earning" salvation. This has already been addressed. Do not strawman us again.

[WalkerW]

Grace is a word used by the LDS church that demonstrates a lack of understanding on what the Bible teaches.

Don't make me gag. This has already been addressed and ignored completely by you. Once again:

The obstacle for our critics is moving beyond the tunnel vision of seeing employment as synonymous with works. When works are put within their proper context, there is no conflict. The cultural context of the New Testament (and therefore 'faith' and 'grace') is one of patronage [9]: "The world of the authors and readers of the New Testament...was one in which the personal patronage was the essential means of acquiring access to goods, protection or opportunities of employment and advancement

[WalkerW]

[The] Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen. And we know that all men must repent and believe on the name of Jesus Christ, and worship the Father in his name, and endure in faith on his name to the end, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God. And we know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true; And we know also, that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength. But there is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God; Therefore let the church take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation; Yea, and even let those who are sanctified take heed also. (D&C 20:28-34; emphasis mine)

Passages such as this are often ignored by our critics. Instead, the focus largely falls on the following: "For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Ne. 25:23) The phrase "after all we can do" is harped on as an unbiblical distortion of salvation. What is odd is that the first part of the sentence is ignored: "it is by grace that we are saved." Grace is the saving factor, as demonstrated elsewhere in the Book of Mormon writings:

And remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved. (2 Ne. 10:24)

Know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah. (2 Ne. 2:

I say, if ye should serve [God] with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants. And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you. And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him. And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast? (Mosiah 2:20-24; vs. 34 describes us as

[Vance]

And you once again misrepresent our position. No one is talking about "earning" salvation. This has already been addressed. Do not strawman us again.

He is in the habit of doing this. Apparently "true" Christians do this sort of thing all the time.

[Zakuska]

If you see in verse 27 that you must "work" for food that endures to eternal life. At first glance, you might think "Aha! I got Merganzerman here! Here is a proof that you must work to achieve salvation." The answer, you notice, is in verses 28-29. Our eternal life depends on God's work. The work of God is not a work we do for God. It is the work God does in us so we believe in His Son.

Lets take a closer look...

27 ????????? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ??????????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???????? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ? ???? ??? ???????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ? ????? ?????????? ? ????

28 ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???????? ??? ?????????? ?? ???? ??? ????

29 ???????? ? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?????????? ??? ?? ?????????? ???????

Notice how in verse 28 the "noun 'God' is in the genitive and qualifies the type of" works they are going to do. (ergo: ?? ???? )

In Isolation the verse could be twisted to say want you want it to say but in context it can't be. Since its a direct answer to their Question on what THEY must do, In response to a command that they should WORK for the bread Jesus is going to provide.

Faith receives God's work -- most notably Christ's completed work on the cross. That specific work is referred to when Jesus said, "It is finished" just before he died on the cross. God's work was an amazing example of His grace.

If Christ really said the work "was finished" then there was no need for Paul and the other apostles to Work or Labour, to try and Save people. Because everybody would all already be saved.

Romans 11

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

What Christ was saying is that the work God gave him to do was Finished.

Notice that the verse does not say, "To believe in the one he has sent and do all you can do to achieve it." No, Just believe.

"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus , and you will be saved -- you and your household." Acts 16:31

There is where you would be wrong.

John 14: 12

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

And you once again misrepresent our position. No one is talking about "earning" salvation. This has already been addressed. Do not strawman us again.

He also addes to the defintion of what a hypocrite is. A person that is a hypocrite is a person who does one thing but says anther, it has nothing what so ever to do with preaching a false gospel.

BTW, I can believe that I can work my way to heavan all I want (Which the LDS do not claim) with out the Saviors help, and that will never make me a hypocrite. Unless I claim to do something that I don't.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Faith receives God's work -- most notably Christ's completed work on the cross. That specific work is referred to when Jesus said, "It is finished" just before he died on the cross. God's work was an amazing example of His grace. Notice that the verse does not say, "To believe in the one he has sent and do all you can do to achieve it." No, Just believe.

What Christ was saying is that the work God gave him to do was Finished.

I am so sick of them telling me that because Jesus said it is done, that that means that Jesus was saying that nobody has to ahve works to be saved.

You are right Zak the work that was "finished" was the work that Jesus was to do given by the Father.

It was not talking about the work that each man must do to gain salvation. Faith with out works is dead.

[WalkerW]

And you ignored what I said about John 6:29. Objective genitive. It is not the work that God does, but instead the work done for God.

[WalkerW]

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway." (Acts 16:30-33)

Notice that Paul's answer to "believe" led to Paul preaching the word of the Lord. This obviously included baptism, seeing that this was done following the discussion.

Perhaps you need the historical analysis of 'belief' (pistis) once more:

While 'grace' represents both the receiving and giving aspect of the relationship, 'faith' represents the commitment to this relationship: "Faith (Lat. fides; Gk pistis) is a term also very much at home in patron-client and friendship relations...In one sense, faith meant

[Zakuska]

Yet another verse which adds works into the equation...

Rom 2

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

[Tanyan]

I seem to remember in the past our critics giving a quote from one of our past Prophets in a Church publication saying that that we "earn salvation" or "earn it". Does anyone remember the Prophet that stated this and in what publication and what was the context ?. Thanks.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Vance]

Bump!

[merganzerman]

Good post. I received an even better understanding on the LDS position of grace and the lengths LDS scholars go to explain away the biblical definition of grace. Once again, WalkerW, you have broadened the chasm between what the LDS teaches to be true and what Biblical Christianity teaches to be true. So much so, that one cannot claim Mormonism to be truly Christian --- only in appearance.

[merganzerman]

[The] Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen. And we know that all men must repent and believe on the name of Jesus Christ, and worship the Father in his name, and endure in faith on his name to the end, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God. And we know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true; And we know also, that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength. But there is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God; Therefore let the church take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation; Yea, and even let those who are sanctified take heed also. (D&C 20:28-34; emphasis mine)

What does it mean by "Justification THROUGH the grace"? That is a big differrence for Biblical Christianity teaches quite cleary, Justified BY faith. And you will see that there is a big difference in what the Bible defines as Grace -- as it pertains to salvation.

It is difficult to make the argument that LDS theology consists of "earning" salvation or any concept that puts God into our debt as if He owes us something.

Do a word search in the lds.org website with the word "debt" -- and you will find it interesting the number of articles that convey that Mormons owe a debt. Technically speaking, utilizing the word "earning" could be in error as far as what Mormons believe. However, the concept still remains that one needs to be worthy enough to receive blessings -- and I believe that would include salvation.

[Zakuska]

[The] Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen. And we know that all men must repent and believe on the name of Jesus Christ, and worship the Father in his name, and endure in faith on his name to the end, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God. And we know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true; And we know also, that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength. But there is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God; Therefore let the church take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation; Yea, and even let those who are sanctified take heed also. (D&C 20:28-34; emphasis mine)

What does it mean by "Justification THROUGH the grace"? That is a big differrence for Biblical Christianity teaches quite cleary, Justified BY faith. And you will see that there is a big difference in what the Bible defines as Grace -- as it pertains to salvation.

What "Bibilical Christianity" do you belong to?

Rom. 3: 24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: