Parable of Sheep and Goats and salvation requirements

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You sound more like you are preaching than discussing.

Bummer.

[Zakuska]

<SNIP>

And the big question is, "How will Jesus measure the good?"

...

The answer lies in what Jesus just said in this passage (v. 24) and will repeat again. Those who do good are those who hear God's Word and believe in the Father and the Son. There is nothing more added. No other works identified. Whatever believers do IN FAITH, God measures as good. In faith they receve eternal life and those who are faith-filled (faithful) are made evident by the good they do. The unbelievers, those works are all counted as evil, will be condemned.

The errors in this paragraph are too numerous to count.

1) The APOSTLE of Jesus Christ who's name is Peter "the rock" does not share your scriptural exegesis...

2 Peter 1

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for IF YE DO these things, ye shall never fall:

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

He directly says to DILIGENTLY ADD GOOD WORKS to faith for the express purpose of Guaranteeing Entrance into the Heavenly Kingdom of God.

2) Beleivers sins are the only sins that ARE looked at by God.

Heb 10

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses

[Tanyan]

Zak and don't forget one must do something to be "Worthy Of Jesus" to be one with him and become His Disciple, Lets get LDS Evangelical for a moment - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/worthy.htm .

Salvation Is in The Person Of Christ Jesus.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[ssbn623]

... His descent into hell in spirit was to proclaim his victory to the spirits in prison -- both human and demonic spirits, whose torment had already begun. Jesus did what victorious generals often do -- bot to the enemy's capital and raise the flag of the conqueror. Jesus' preaching was not for the purpose of giving the damned, those who had been sentenced to hell, a second chance at repentance, but simply to proclaim his victory.

Jesus Christ did not enter Hades so that he could do a victory dance in front of tormented souls.

c. the just for the unjust.

I like the translation, "the righteous for the unrighteous". This is the heart of the Christian gospel. A substitution was made for our behalf. The Father placed the blame for the sins of the world upon a just substitute and then had him executed in our place -- the unjust....

The Father did not have His Beloved Son - His Only Begotten - executed. Satan had him executed. Evil and conspiring men had him executed. I am surprised that people on this board gave you a pass on that statement.

d. that he might bring us to God

We cannot bring ourselves up to God and place our works before God's feet so we can be declared righteous or just. Christ, the just, brings us to God and presents himself, the perfect sacrifice, to take our place. So, instead of seeing us, God sees the perfect Savior as declares us not guilty, just and perfect.

Now you claim that the omniscient Father can't see us but chooses to remain blind to reality.

Have I missed something?

[FormerLDS]

The errors in this paragraph are too numerous to count.

1) The APOSTLE of Jesus Christ who's name is Peter "the rock" does not share your scriptural exegesis...

2 Peter 1

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for IF YE DO these things, ye shall never fall:

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

He directly says to DILIGENTLY ADD GOOD WORKS to faith for the express purpose of Guaranteeing Entrance into the Heavenly Kingdom of God.

2) Beleivers sins are the only sins that ARE looked at by God.

Heb 10

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses

[Vance]

"The errors in this paragraph are too numerous to count."

Yet, ironically, the spelling and grammar errors in Zakuska's response are also too numerous to count...

If you can't refute the message, you can always attack the messenger.

[Tanyan]

"Finding Salvation requires more concentrated effort than most people are willing to put forth. Obviously we cannot save ourselves into GOD's favor, the effort we must put out to enter through the narrow door is earnestly desiring to know Jesus and dillegently striving to follow him. We dare not put off making the decision because the door will not stay open forever".

NIV Application study Bible on Luke 13:23-25

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[WalkerW]

Utilizing the NIV, a widely used and universally accepted translation from the Christian Church

Don't you love how he attempts to throw some kind of authority behind this particular translation by saying it is "widely used" and "universally accepted" by the "Christian Church"?

But speaking of the NIV, what about this verse:

When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel. (Deut. 32:8, NIV)

When the Most High apportioned the nations, when he divided humankind, he fixed the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the gods. (Deut. 32:8, NRSV)

NIV is a little behind on its translation, especially since the LXX reads "angels of God" (GR angelwn qeou) and Fragment 4Qdeut(j) reads "sons of God" (bene elohim). Mark S. Smith (Skirball Professor of Bible & Professor of Hebrew and Judaic Studies, New York University) concluded that "each god held his own inheritance, and the whole was headed by the patriarchal god. Other gods in their nations represented no threat to Israel and its patron god as long as they were not imported into Israel. As long as other gods did not affect worship of Yahweh in Israel, they could be tolerated as the gods of other peoples and nations." (Smith, The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel

[merganzerman]

Can you stop with the "I will give you the Christian interpretation". It does not help your cause. The LDS interpretation is just as "Christian" as your interpretation as we are Christians.

Dear Mola Ram Suda Ram:

That is the reason why I'm here. To share with you that Mormonism is not Christian. And most of my posts are to share with you the reasons why.

Any way moving on. I cannot find any were in the bible were it says the reason that Christ went to them was to "proclaim his vitory to the spirits in prison". I think that is just you making things up. If you'll notice that Christ preached to them. Why use the word preach? Oh and I don't believe in 2nd chances either. What we beleive is that those that have never had a chance to hear of Jesus or about Jesus will have that chance in prison. What about the guy in outer Mongolia living in 400 B.C? Does he just go to hell because he never had the chance to hear of Jesus? Jesus went to preach to those spirits in prison, those spirits were the put back in the day of Noah, and no were does the text say they were demons.

Good questions. In the Original Greek text, there are two forms of preaching. One is to preach and the other is to proclaim. In this case, the Greek work that is translated to preach is the tense used to proclaim. As if declaring a message. Also, if people are sent to a spirit prison, they do receive a second chance to avoid hell. Which is not Christian thinking (except for Catholics who believe in a purgatory). And for those who have never heard of Jesus (upper Mongolia), that's a rather involved questions which I would like to save for another time. Finally, for those in the day of Noah, who rejected God, those are the spirits. And when you read the whole Bible, which is the proper way to study the Bible, you will see that it will also be a place for all people who reject Jesus as their substitute.

[merganzerman]

"Finding Salvation requires more concentrated effort than most people are willing to put forth. Obviously we cannot save ourselves into GOD's favor, the effort we must put out to enter through the narrow door is earnestly desiring to know Jesus and dillegently striving to follow him. We dare not put off making the decision because the door will not stay open forever".

NIV Application study Bible on Luke 13:23-25

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Interesting. My NIV Study Bible does not have that quote. I think what this quote could say as it relates to the Scripture verse is that we need to take all of God's Word very seriously. Because narrow will be the door for those who reject Christ. And you will only receive one chance to enter it. Notice he doesn't talk about spirit prisons or anything else. But just one door. That is why Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life." We can't save ourselves and be made perfect based on our efforts. We have to be perfect, not become perfect. Yes, that will require effort to fully read the entire message of the gospels and consider what I'm saying to be true.

[merganzerman]

You sound more like you are preaching than discussing.

If is sound "preachy" I apologize. Neither do I want to necessarily debate. It seems that I have been given the opportunity to exchange with each of you. So, in some respects, I feel that I am teaching what it is to be Christian.

Vance, here is my definition of a Christian that I would like for you to react to.

A Christian is one who is perfect in Christ Jesus and 100% assured of full forgiveness.

[merganzerman]

Don't you love how he attempts to throw some kind of authority behind this particular translation by saying it is "widely used" and "universally accepted" by the "Christian Church"?

If Mormons desire to be called Christian, than it would certainly make sense for Mormons to accept the NIV Version of the Bible for it is widely used and universally accepted as a proper and correct translation of the original Greek texts.

[Zakuska]

Interesting. My NIV Study Bible does not have that quote. I think what this quote could say as it relates to the Scripture verse is that we need to take all of God's Word very seriously. Because narrow will be the door for those who reject Christ. And you will only receive one chance to enter it.

I think you got it backwards. Wide is the Gate that leads to destruction and Narrow in the gate that leads to Christ.

Notice he doesn't talk about spirit prisons or anything else. But just one door. That is why Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life." We can't save ourselves and be made perfect based on our efforts. We have to be perfect, not become perfect. Yes, that will require effort to fully read the entire message of the gospels and consider what I'm saying to be true.

Even Jesus had to become perfect...

Heb 5

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

And if what you said is true then their is no reason to even have a Church or a clergy.

Eph. 4: 12

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

[Vance]

I think you got it backwards. Wide is the Gate that leads to destruction and Narrow in the gate that leads to Christ.

Even Jesus had to become perfect...

Heb 5

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

And if what you said is true then their is no reason to even have a Church or a clergy.

Eph. 4: 12

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

And let's not forget this one.

Luke 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Edited to add.

And let's not forget this one.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

[Vance]

So, in some respects, I feel that I am teaching what it is to be Christian.

And what we are teaching you (or at least trying to teach you) is the true doctrine of Christ. Not the apostate version you currently have.

(Did that sound as arrogant as your statement? Just checking.)

Vance, here is my definition of a Christian that I would like for you to react to.

Now WHY should I be interested in YOUR definition? The Bible provides a much better one.

A Christian is one who is perfect in Christ Jesus . . .

Nah, this has already been shown to be in error. See the posts just above.

. . . and 100% assured of full forgiveness.

Really, I think God will forgive who He will forgive.

But we do know that He has promised forgiveness to the penitent. And His promises are sure.

Those who don't repent don't have that promise, so if they think they have 100% assurance they may be just deceiving themselves.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Don't you love how he attempts to throw some kind of authority behind this particular translation by saying it is "widely used" and "universally accepted" by the "Christian Church"?

If Mormons desire to be called Christian, than it would certainly make sense for Mormons to accept the NIV Version of the Bible for it is widely used and universally accepted as a proper and correct translation of the original Greek texts.

Since when was that a requirement to be called a Christian? It sounds as if these very words are adding to the bible.

[Zakuska]

And let's not forget this one.

Luke 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Edited to add.

And let's not forget this one.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

And to add to that:

Philip. 3: 12

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Added: A respectful high-five to Vance.

[volgadon]

universally accepted as a proper and correct translation of the original Greek texts.

By people who don't know koine or any other Greek.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

If is sound "preachy" I apologize. Neither do I want to necessarily debate. It seems that I have been given the opportunity to exchange with each of you. So, in some respects, I feel that I am teaching what it is to be Christian.

Vance, here is my definition of a Christian that I would like for you to react to.

A Christian is one who is perfect in Christ Jesus and 100% assured of full forgiveness.

Sweet that would be the LDS. I am assured that if I have faith and follow Jesus' teachings that I will be forgiven 100% I also have the promise to become perfect.

[Zakuska]

merganzerman:

A Christian is one who is perfect in Christ Jesus and 100% assured of full forgiveness.

Sweet that would be the LDS. I am assured that if I have faith and follow Jesus' teachings that I will be forgiven 100% I also have the promise to become perfect.

So much for the Apostle Paul...

Philip. 3: 12

12 ...either were already perfect...

[seriously honestly]

God does not count the sins of a non beleiver against them (2 cor 5:19)... he does however look at their Good works. (See next item)

I think that verse is talking about those that are believers, otherwise it would just be incentive to remain a non-believer.

[Zakuska]

I think that verse is talking about those that are believers, otherwise it would just be incentive to remain a non-believer.

There's the rub. Now that you know that's how God works You can't claim ignorance. You're eyes have been opened. You know it... and God knows it.

Perhpas Neo and Cypher where onto something... "Ignorance is bliss". Theres no blue pills sorry.

[seriously honestly]

There's the rub. Now that you know that's how God works You can't claim ignorance. You're eyes have been opened. You know it... and God knows it.

Perhpas Neo and Cypher where onto something... "Ignorance is bliss". Theres no blue pills sorry.

what!? no blue pills?....was I claiming ignorance before?

[Zakuska]

what!? no blue pills?....was I claiming ignorance before?

Never said you did... just explaining that "while it might be motivation" by the time you come to know it its too late. That's why Paul often refered to himself as a "prisoner of Christ".

[seriously honestly]

Never said you did... just explaining that "while it might be motivation" by the time you come to know it its too late. That's why Paul often refered to himself as a "prisoner of Christ".

ah, gotcha. I was trying to figure out what you meant without seeming completely dense; you had me confused there for a sec.