Parable of Sheep and Goats and salvation requirements

[Zakuska]

Pooned

A respectful High Five to you Mola.

[Vance]

A respectful High Five to you Mola.

dittos!

[Vance]

Echo,

Here are just a few of the clear and plain words of Jesus that you are ignoring.

[Zakuska]

dittos!

Another Question that Echo must also answer now is if Christ was the last prophet then what are prophets doing in the church at Antioch prophesying and teaching over 30-40 years after Christ was crucified? Wasn't Jesus enough?

There's also the uncomfortable fact of the drought being prophecied of in the book of Acts by a LIVING prophet (Acts 11:27-28).

[Vance]

Another Question that Echo must also answer now is if Christ was the last prophet then what are prophets doing in the church at Antioch prophesying and teaching over 30-40 years after Christ was crucified?

There's also the uncomfortable fact of the drought being prophecied of in the book of Acts by a LIVING prophet.

Well, apparently Echo has run away, at least for the time being. It will be interesting (if he does return) how he will spin things to conjure an answer. I wouldn't hold my breath for an answer though.

[Zakuska]

Echo,

Here are just a few of the clear and plain words of Jesus that you are ignoring.

[LeSellers]

Every time a Mormon goes to the Temple they reach into the Abyss and pull a soul out of the clutches of the darkness.

That's a bit of an overstatement. Better, it would read: "Every time a LDS goes to the Temple, he reaches into the Abyss and throws a rope ladder to a soul so he can, by faith in Jesus Christ, climb beyond the reach of the clutches of darkness."

Lehi

[Vance]

In addition to Zak's posts we have this,

Matt. 7:15

[Zakuska]

That's a bit of an overstatement. Better, it would read: "Every time a LDS goes to the Temple, he reaches into the Abyss and throws a rope ladder to a soul so he can, by faith in Jesus Christ, climb beyond the reach of the clutches of darkness."

Lehi

Thank you. That does sound better. But you also remember what Obadia said?

Obad 1

21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the Lord

[Flyonthewall]

This isn't what I am asserting.

Grace is required to produce faith in us. A salvation of grace alone produces faith.

That faith then goes on to do good works.

So if I understand you correctly, we are saved FIRST. Then Faith comes SECOND as it is a product of Salvation. Once we are saved and have faith, we can then perform works THIRD. Try as you might, you cannot convince anyone that this is in the scriptures.

Let me make it easy to understand...

Bible teaches:

1. Living faith = faith + works,
   
2. Dead faith = faith without works
   
3. Salvation = Grace(of God) + Living Faith(ours)
   

LDS assertion: Salvation = Grace + Living faith

Echo assertion: Salvation = Grace + Dead faith

Works = Salvation + Dead faith.

Which assertion looks more biblical?

[Doctor Steuss]

Think about it....concordances aren't outdated. They contain orignal definitions.

Oi vey. (Mic check... is this thing on?). I know you're having to respond to a lot of people here, so we'll try this again:

The purpose of a concordance is not for providing definitions of words;

[Zakuska]

Since Echo claims we don't need the words of any prophets but Jesus because they are all just men after all, I vote that if he comes back we ignore any scriptures he quotes that are not found in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John, and are not direct quotes from Jesus.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Rev. 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Echo, please deal with this scipture. If there are not going to be any more porphets and you think that verse of scirpture is talking about. And you believe that verse in Hebrews is telling us that Christ is the last of all prophets and after him there will be no more. Tell me what do you make of this verse in relevlations? Who are these 2 prophets? IT is evident from the context that these are 2 true prophets sent from God. Your teaching is false that there will be no latter day prophets, it is un-biblical.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

[WalkerW]

Which concordances aren't outdated? Are you suggesting that none are? If this is the case, Dr. Ben Witherington III (Amos Professor of New Testament for Doctoral Studies, Asbury Theological Seminary) certainly disagrees with you (from his blog):

Strong's concordance is both old and outdated...Most free online concordances are way out of date-- that's why they are free.

Just one more reason why I should ignore you entirely.

[Tanyan]

Yes. we do say "thank you" but when the thank you becomes a requirement, it is no longer a "thank you"

Thank you's are a requirement in the same way we are required [commanded] to forgive everyone everytime.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Zakuska]

Very obviously you cannot keep the commandments.

Which is why Jesus came, to cover my sins when I fail.

It doesn't mean I can sit back and fail to even try, like with the Gospel that you are promoting.

In your Gospel, since Jesus did it all, why even try? My sins are already forgiven before I commit them so I can sin all I want. God won't hold it against me. Because I was saved, and as everyone knows... once saved always saved.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So if I understand you correctly, we are saved FIRST. Then Faith comes SECOND as it is a product of Salvation. Once we are saved and have faith, we can then perform works THIRD. Try as you might, you cannot convince anyone that this is in the scriptures.

Let me make it easy to understand...

Bible teaches:

1. Living faith = faith + works,
   
2. Dead faith = faith without works
   
3. Salvation = Grace(of God) + Living Faith(ours)
   

LDS assertion: Salvation = Grace + Living faith

Echo assertion: Salvation = Grace + Dead faith

Works = Salvation + Dead faith.

Which assertion looks more biblical?

To be more respectful or to have an Echo of respect I would say it like this.

Faith+Grace = salvation and that leads to good works. I can't find this formual mentioned in the bible.

However he seems to also think that

Faith + Works = no faith or no salvation. I havn't figured that one out yet. And that is why LDS are not Christians.

[Vance]

 ..-^~~~^-..
 .~ ~.
 (;: B O O M :
 (: 
 ':._ _.:'
 | |
 (=====)
 | |
 | |
 | |
 ((/ \))

Sometimes it is a lot of fun when things go BOOM!!

2 Echos of respect added, just to make it fair.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You know... For some one who is only supposed to listen to the prophet Jesus.

Echo sure places the words of the prophet Paul in higher reguard!?

 ..-^~~~^-..
 .~ ~.
 (;: B O O M :
 (: 
 ':._ _.:'
 | |
 (=====)
 | |
 | |
 | |
 ((/ \))

But what should I expect... thats been my experience for over 20 years speaking with Christians.

???????????????????????????/

?????????????|????????????

[Zakuska]

However he seems to also think that

Faith + Works = no faith or no salvation. I havn't figured that on out yet. And that is why LDS are not Christians.

Which also means that Peter and Paul both failed his "Christian

[Tanyan]

a quote from one of your links: "Doesn't a removal of guilt make sin easier for us all?"

Quite the contrary, The removal of guilt makes overcoming sin easier for us all.

Overcoming sin because of guilt is wrong motivation. Judas overcame his sin because of guilt and ended up in outer darkness after having committed suicide.

What mistake did he make? He didn't trust that in Jesus his guilt was removed!

I do not percieve that echo is getting it [The points]. Salvation maintenance is required to activate/access/make alive Jesus Christs Blood sacrifice for us, this is done by True faith [pistis] which is a gift that also must be accessed/activated/and made alive along with Repentance.

Through True Grace not a false grace - http://www.hallvworth....com/grace.html

Through True faith not a false faith -

http://www.hallvworth...xTrueFaith.html

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Echo]

Echo,

Here are just a few of the clear and plain words of Jesus that you are ignoring.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I believe it is you who is ignoring these words. Mathew 19:17 says: "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" You Vance and others here who believe in keeping the commandments to be saved don't keep the commandments therefore thou wilt not enter into life.

The law brings Wrath whenever you sin against it and you contiually and willfully do it. Make no mistake, your religion is fruitless and you are prime evidence of that because of the lack of any fruit seen in you. Your simply a thistle and it's time for me to get out of the thistle patch.

Take Care All.

Funny that, you are the one claiming that keeping the commandments is not necessary and yet we are the one with out life. Nice. We beleive you must accept Jesus and indoing so you must keep his commandments. It did not say that you had to keep them perfectly, today just hat you need to do your best. How do you expect to become perfect if you are not trying to become perfect? Perfection is only possible if you try to be and if you have the Savior's help. THere is no other way.

That law does bring wrath you are correct, but it is you who wish to completly ignore the law. You cannot do that.

[Zakuska]

If vance is a thistle.

I got dibs on being the Milk Weed!

[Zakuska]

Funny that, you are the one claiming that keeping the commandments is not necessary and yet we are the one with out life. Nice.

<snip>

That law does bring wrath you are correct, but it is you who wish to completly ignore the law. You cannot do that.

Hey Mola,

Paul must be going to hell for telling me to fulfill the law.

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

At least according to Echo.