Parable of Sheep and Goats and salvation requirements

[volgadon]

Your making remarks based on your own misunderstandings and ignorance in the matter.

Salvation is the horse, sanctification is the cart. Works belong in the cart and have no place in the horse. We are discussing the horse and not the cart. Please keep that in mind and don't get the two confused.

Since cart horses aren't meant for riding, your metaphor is ridiculous.

I'll resist the temptation to make the obvious statement about sequences.

[Echo]

Could both faith and works be required at the same time? Complete and total trust in God's saving grace. And a sincere desire to do God's will, followed by action. And when we fail or come short (as we will all do in our humanity), we turn to our Savior and ask forgiveness. Both trust and action required on our part and at the same time, our lives and our futures are free gifts from God. Why does it have to be either/or?

Why the constant need to dissect, to be right, to strip open the mystery of faith and turn it into a Logic Thesis?

"If X, then Y." Do any of you really believe that you or I can tell the Creator of the Universe who is saved, who is condemned? God is the merciful judge, certainly not any one of us. We all live and die, returning to the earth. While we are here, why not commit to loving our neighbors as ourselves? Commit to placing our Maker at the center of our world, and making life beautiful for all who come across our path?

Love, truth, acceptance - that's what should be sought after.

You made some really good points. For example: "Do any of you really believe that you or I can tell the Creator of the Universe who is saved, who is condemned?" Is a good point. None of us can tell who is saved or condemned. Only God can make that judgement. The thing is, he has made that judgement in his word already and so we can therefore pass his judgement along to others as a loving warning to them so they can avoid that fate.

You also made a great point when you said: "While we are here, why not commit to loving our neighbors as ourselves? Commit to placing our Maker at the center of our world, and making life beautiful for all who come across our path?" That's a great point! However, we don't all follow the same Maker.

Those who believe that Faith and works are required at the same time for salvation are the very ones who need God's warining from scripture. God warns us in his word that those who believe this will not inherit heaven.

Salvation is the horse and sanctification is the cart. Works belong only in the cart but the horse must come first for there to be any forward movement of the cart.

[volgadon]

What in your preposterous metaphor represent works, because some things, such as harnesses, belong on the horse, not in the cart.

[Echo]

Israel (and yes, it is real) was blinded because thy put their trust in what they thought books written centuries before they were even born were saying, instead of accepting Christ who spoke in their day and age and spoke with power and authority.

Sound familiar?

Scripture teaches that they pursued God's law as the way to become righteous which is exactly what the LDS believes.

The Isrealites put their blind trust in the teachers of the law. These teachers used the law legalistically which is what the LDS does. These teachers turned traditions (things not written nor commanded in the word of God) into more law which is what the LDS does. These teachers made up laws not written in scripture, which is what the LDS does.

Christ indeed spoke with power and authority as he revealled the existing scripture to them! He took these teachers of the law and showed them what the law demanded of them in order to show them their own hypocrisy but they were so blind.

[Echo]

He didn't trust in Christ that his sin might be removed.

Why is overcoming sin because of guilt wrong?

If we don't feel guilt, we don't care.

The law makes us feel guilt, the gospel removes that guilt. It is exactly that amazing love that God has for us that causes us to care! Think about it. Apply that to yourself.

[Echo]

By guilt I mean feeling of guilt, or being pricked in the heart, as thhe ancients knew it, so don't bother to post any verses about guilt being removed, becuase it is not quite the same thing. That is talking about a condition, not a feeling.

I agree! The law does prick the heart and cause guilt, however the gospel of forgiveness removes that guilt, it removes that prick in the heart.

[volgadon]

These teachers used the law legalistically which is what the LDS does.

Heaven forbid they be used for their intended purpose!

[volgadon]

I agree! The law does prick the heart and cause guilt, however the gospel of forgiveness removes that guilt, it removes that prick in the heart.

And it is only removed when you do something, IE repentance.

It motivates to return to the Lord and seek to do his will. By removing guilt, very few (if any) would be bothered to repent.

[volgadon]

He took these teachers of the law and showed them what the law demanded of them in order to show them their own hypocrisy but they were so blind.

Are you saying he didn't really want them to follow the law, but was only using it to make them feel bad? What a lovely Jesus you believe in.

[Echo]

What in your preposterous metaphor represent works, because some things, such as harnesses, belong on the horse, not in the cart.

The Horse and cart analogy is just meant to give a picture of two seperate things that are hitched together. The horse always comes before the cart. The cart doesn't come before the horse.

The horse (salvation) must come first before the cart will move in tow. Works have no place in discussion on salvation(the horse) Once a person is saved, that is where works come in. (the cart)

The horse is faith the cart is works. Faith without works is dead but works don't save us.

[volgadon]

These teachers made up laws not written in scripture, which is what the LDS does.

Why don't you for a moment assume that our claim to having prophets who speak in the name of the Lord is true, are you arguing that God has no right to add laws and commandments?

[volgadon]

The Horse and cart analogy is just meant to give a picture of two seperate things that are hitched together. The horse always comes before the cart. The cart doesn't come before the horse.

The horse (salvation) must come first before the cart will move in tow. Works have no place in discussion on salvation(the horse) Once a person is saved, that is where works come in. (the cart)

The horse is faith the cart is works. Faith without works is dead but works don't save us.

A horse without a cart is dead?

[Echo]

Heaven forbid they be used for their intended purpose!

The law demands perfection in this life. You and I aren't perfect and never will be in this life. Therefore it's intended purpose is impossible for us.

[Echo]

And it is only removed when you do something, IE repentance.

It motivates to return to the Lord and seek to do his will. By removing guilt, very few (if any) would be bothered to repent.

Again, repentance is God's work in us through the law. Repentance is simply "guilt and sorrow for sin" healed by forgiveness.

It's in knowing you are forgiven that produces God pleasing fruit to follow that repentance.

Overcoming sin because of guilt is not God pleasing.

[volgadon]

Again, repentance is God's work in us through the law. Repentance is simply "guilt and sorrow for sin" healed by forgiveness.

It's in knowing you are forgiven that produces God pleasing fruit to follow that repentance.

Overcoming sin because of guilt is not God pleasing.

Give it a break. Try reading the Bible instead of reading protestant theology into it.

[Echo]

Are you saying he didn't really want them to follow the law, but was only using it to make them feel bad? What a lovely Jesus you believe in.

NO. That is not what I am saying. I am saying that they believed they had to follow the law IN ORDER TO GAIN SALVATION and FORGIVENESS. Jesus needed to show them how hypocritical they truly were. The law demands the impossible of us because the law actually reveals what God is like and we are not like God because of our sin.

As always, the law always demands perfection and we aren't perfect. Jesus needed to show them how futile their attempts to gain salvation through obedience was.

[Echo]

Why don't you for a moment assume that our claim to having prophets who speak in the name of the Lord is true, are you arguing that God has no right to add laws and commandments?

I am arguing that God has already given us all his commandments. Jesus chastised the pharisees for adding to his fully revealled law.

[Echo]

A horse without a cart is dead?

Analogies are intended to make one point. Don't stretch it.

[Echo]

Give it a break. Try reading the Bible instead of reading protestant theology into it.

Give it a break. Try reading the Bible instead of reading LDS theology into it.

[volgadon]

I am arguing that God has already given us all his commandments. Jesus chastised the pharisees for adding to his fully revealled law.

CFR.

And CFR on repentance being God's working of the law within us, or whatever it was you said.

[volgadon]

Give it a break. Try reading the Bible instead of reading LDS theology into it.

How clever. Polly want a cracker?

[volgadon]

Jesus needed to show them how hypocritical they truly were.

If they truly believed it, how did that make them hypocritical?

[Echo]

How clever. Polly want a cracker?

After all, the truth is, It's the Joseph Smith inspired translation that contradicts the word of God. Even the LDS teaching not to drink alchohol which God never forbid, Jesus himself turned the water into wine! Try reading the Bible!

[volgadon]

BTW nice dodge on my question about god and further commandments.

[Echo]

If they truly believed it, how did that make them hypocritical?

They thought that if they obeyed the law outwardly that they were obeying the law. They didn't commit adultery outwardly but Jesus showed them they commited adultery by lustful thoughts. They thought they hadn't murdered anyone, Jesus showed them that every time they get angry with someone they murder someone.

They weren't righteous, they were lawbreakers just like you and me. They were murderers and adulterers just like you and me. Just because they or you or I haven't committed outward adultery or murder, they and you and I are guilty of murder and adultery because we have had lustful thoughts and have gotten angry at others. These hypocrites thought they were better than others but Jesus showed them we are all the same. We are law breakers who deserve to go to outer darkness.