Parable of Sheep and Goats and salvation requirements

[Echo]

If what you say is true then these verses are a lie.

Heb 10

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses

[Zakuska]

This is a lifestyle of willful sin without sorrow for sin or desire to change. When we live our lives in this way, we really are saying to God: "I don't really want your free forgiveness that you won for me on the cross, you can keep it or take it back, I like my lifestyle as is"

Now you are contradicting yourself. You said we where already forgiven. You can't be forgiven and notforgiven at the same time. So which is it?

[Echo]

And yet Paul spends the next six chapter doing just that mixing them.

Also if what you say is true then the only people who are saved are Gentiles and the Israelites are all going to hell.

Did you notice Pauls retorical question following verse 6?

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Exactly! And how was Isreal blinded? They were blinded because they believed they were saved by faith and works just as the LDS does!

Heb. 5: 9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Salvation only comes to those who obey Jesus' commandments.

He commanded us to believe on the one whom was sent.

[Echo]

Now you are contradicting yourself. You said we where already forgiven. You can't be forgiven and notforgiven at the same time. So which is it?

Lets say you punch your neighbor in the head and he forgave you. You can reject that he has forgiven you by not believing it or not caring whether or not you have been forgiven but that doesn't change the fact that you were forgiven. Of course if you could care less or didn't believe it, you wouldn't personally benefit from it, but you still were forgiven by your neighbor weren't you.

[Zakuska]

Exactly! And how was Isreal blinded? They were blinded because they believed they were saved by faith and works just as the LDS does!

Wrong again. Paul tells us they thought the were saved by "Works alone", Unlike Mormons.

Romans 9

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

IOW they did not mix Faith in Jesus WITH their works.

He commanded us to believe on the one whom was sent.

And what did the one who was sent tell us?

Luke 6

46

[Echo]

Wrong again. Paul tells us they thought the were saved by "Works alone", Unlike Mormons.

Romans 9

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

IOW they did not mix Faith in Jesus WITH their works.

Neither does the LDS! The Isrealites believed in faith and works. Faith in God and works. They believed in God and they believed that works were a condition to salvation.

The LDS do NOT put faith in Jesus either. Jesus forgave us! The LDS doesn't believe this! They do NOT have faith in this which means they do not have faith in Jesus. The LDS believes the same thing the Isrealites who were blinded believe.

And what did the one who was sent tell us?

Luke 6

46

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Yes he did. In 2 Corinth 5:19 which I listed above he stated that the whole world is forgiven. So your point is totally without merit.

No he didn't. Tell me, why is it necessary to believe if you are already forgiven? What is the point of that belief?

Reconcile does not mean forgiven. Please, were is it said that God as forgiven all of our debts with no action on our part.

And again I have addressed that quote, all it means is that Christ is the way. No one can be saved with out Christ. But there is a requirement. Do you disagree?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Neither does the LDS! The Isrealites believed in faith and works. Faith in God and works. They believed in God and they believed that works were a condition to salvation.

The LDS do NOT put faith in Jesus either. Jesus forgave us! The LDS doesn't believe this! They do NOT have faith in this which means they do not have faith in Jesus. The LDS believes the same thing the Isrealites who were blinded believe.

Cut the crap, if God has already forgiven us and there is no requirement, then we have fulfilled what you are preaching.

Tell me how does believing works are required make our faith null. Were is that taught in the bible? To the contray I can find several examples that if our faith is with out works it is dead. How can dead faith save you? If you want to win converts you had better start paying attention to what we are writing. The Israelites believed that soley the works of the law would save them. That is were you are in confusion. They had no faith. On the other hand you are preaching that one does not need works with faith which runs contrary to what James and other apostles have preached. The parable of the sheep and the goats makes this painfully obvious. I can only conclude that you are being obtuse on purpose because these things run contrary to your do nothing gospel.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Wrong again. Paul tells us they thought the were saved by "Works alone", Unlike Mormons.

Romans 9

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

IOW they did not mix Faith in Jesus WITH their works.

And what did the one who was sent tell us?

Luke 6

46

[Brade]

Exactly! Works are not the mechanism that saves us. So that excludes all "conditions" because where you have "conditions" there you have salvation by works or grace and works. Grace and works cannot be mixed together. Your either saved by grace alone or works alone.

Certainly, even on your view, there are some conditions to salvation. For example, in order for X to be saved X has to exist. There's one condition

[Echo]

No he didn't.

Yes he did. He said: "Not counting men's sins against them" that is forgiveness! That is how and why we are reconciled.

Col 1:22 "But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation

[Tanyan]

echo, once again we are Saved by Grace [charis] alone through Faith [pistis] alone by way of The LORD OF LIFE'S Authorized Servants. You access/activate/ make alive Jesus Christs Grace in your Spiritual/Temporal life by accessing/activating/making alive The Gift of Faith. Do you not say Thank you ?.

In His Debt/Grace. Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Flyonthewall]

If we are already forgiven, then the Apostles wasted their time and effort.

Acts 3:19

[Tanyan]

echo it would seem has an incorrect view of Grace and Faith as understood by the anchient Israelites/Christians . lets see if we can help - Grace - http://www.hallworth....com/grace.html

Faith- http://www.hallworth...xTrueFaith.html

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Echo]

Cut the crap, if God has already forgiven us and there is no requirement, then we have fulfilled what you are preaching.

I speak only what I believe is truth. Don't get angry but instead listen. God has already forgiven you but you reject it. You believe you have to do something to be forgiven so you reject Christ's work in your behalf. Therefore, in the final judgement you will be judged according to your works alone because you rejected faith in Jesus. Faith in Jesus means faith in the fact that he had already forgiven you. Instead you want to work for that forgiveness.

Tell me how does believing works are required make our faith null.

Read all the scriptures on why the Isrealites were blind and as a result their faith was null. They pursued righteousness through the law rather than through faith. What does that mean? It means they pursued forgiveness as something recieved after doing something just as the LDS believes.

The Isrealites believed in "requirements" to salvation just as the LDS believes. They pursued salvation through requirements rather than through faith(alone) just as the LDS believes.

What does it mean to pursue righteousness through faith(alone)? It means believing that God in Christ has made you 100% righteous. There are tons of passages on that. It is a righteousness that comes to us through faith alone. Jesus lived under God's law and he lived under it perfectly, he never sinned. He met the requirements of the law. He then credits HIS righteousness to us. If you imagine Jesus' perfect obedience to God's law as a robe of righteousness. Jesus gives us that robe to wear. Now whenever God looks at us, all he sees is perfect obedience to God's law because we are wearing the robe of Jesus' righteousness. Now read these verses slowly and carefully. Every word counts, even the little ones, in seeing what I am saying. Keep in mind that God's law is everything he has commanded us to do and not do in the entire bible:

Romans 3:20 "For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last"

Romans 3:21-24 " ²¹But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. ²²This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, ²³for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, ²⁴and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Romans 4:3 "What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Romans 4:5 "However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 4:6 "David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Romans 4:13 "It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

Romans 5:17 "For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

Romans 9:30-31 "³⁰What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; ³¹but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.

Romans 10:3 "Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.

Romans 10:4 "Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes"

>>>>>>>>>>>>

The LDS Belief: Romans 10:5 "Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them."

Faith in Jesus belief Romans 10:6 "But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'"

>>>>>>>>>

For the above, the LDS must say: "who will ascend into heaven" because you won't know if you will ascend into heaven until you find out if you have met all the requirements. Those of us who trust that Jesus has met all the requirements for us so that we are credited now with his righteousness do not say: "who will ascend into heaven?" because we already know we will!!

1 Corinthians 1:30 "It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God

[volgadon]

I don't believe my definition is fundamentally flawed. I think you have been taken to the cleaners on your definition.

Naturally. Evangelical, theological assertions top serious historical, cultural and philological research any day of the week........

Guess we learn something new every day, don't we, Walker?

[sthilda87]

Could both faith and works be required at the same time? Complete and total trust in God's saving grace. And a sincere desire to do God's will, followed by action. And when we fail or come short (as we will all do in our humanity), we turn to our Savior and ask forgiveness. Both trust and action required on our part and at the same time, our lives and our futures are free gifts from God. Why does it have to be either/or?

Why the constant need to dissect, to be right, to strip open the mystery of faith and turn it into a Logic Thesis?

"If X, then Y." Do any of you really believe that you or I can tell the Creator of the Universe who is saved, who is condemned? God is the merciful judge, certainly not any one of us. We all live and die, returning to the earth. While we are here, why not commit to loving our neighbors as ourselves? Commit to placing our Maker at the center of our world, and making life beautiful for all who come across our path?

Love, truth, acceptance - that's what should be sought after.

[volgadon]

Exactly! And how was Isreal blinded? They were blinded because they believed they were saved by faith and works just as the LDS does!

Israel (and yes, it is real) was blinded because thy put their trust in what they thought books written centuries before they were even born were saying, instead of accepting Christ who spoke in their day and age and spoke with power and authority.

Sound familiar?

[Echo]

echo, once again we are Saved by Grace [charis] alone through Faith [pistis] alone by way of The LORD OF LIFE'S Authorized Servants. You access/activate/ make alive Jesus Christs Grace in your Spiritual/Temporal life by accessing/activating/making alive The Gift of Faith. Do you not say Thank you ?.

In His Debt/Grace. Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Yes. we do say "thank you" but when the thank you becomes a requirement, it is no longer a "thank you"

[Echo]

If we are already forgiven, then the Apostles wasted their time and effort.

As this scriptures plainly states, we need to repent so that our sins may be blotted out. Funny how Peter didn't realize that our sins are already forgiven...that silly goose! He was still preaching repentance!

God's law demands perfection. Since we aren't perfect, God's law only reveals our sin and thus our inability to do something for our salvation. The law condemns men to Hell "2 Corinthians 3:9 "If the ministry that condemns men is glorious..."

Romans 3:20 "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin"

The Holy Spirit, through God's law (that requires perfection of us), reveals to us the wrath of God that is against us because of our sins:

Romans 3:5 "But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us?"

That dread, that despair, that regret, that sorrow, is repentance. That repentance with those thoughts and feelings are caused by the Holy Spirit working in us through God's law.

The law requires perfection and nothing short of it. Since we aren't perfect, God's law convicts us and robs us of PEACE and hope because it only reveals our unrighteousness. Nobody is righteous unless they are perfect. The unrighteous reap outer darkness as their deserved reward.

However the Gospel reveals something else, it reveals a righteousness FROM GOD that comes to us through faith and not through the law. In Christ, all our sins have been forgiven and we are credited with Christ's perfection. Robed in his righteousness.

Repentance therefore is God's work in us through his law and gospel, it is not our work.

[Echo]

echo it would seem has an incorrect view of Grace and Faith as understood by the anchient Israelites/Christians . lets see if we can help - Grace - http://www.hallworth....com/grace.html

Faith- http://www.hallworth...xTrueFaith.html

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

a quote from one of your links: "Doesn't a removal of guilt make sin easier for us all?"

Quite the contrary, The removal of guilt makes overcoming sin easier for us all.

Overcoming sin because of guilt is wrong motivation. Judas overcame his sin because of guilt and ended up in outer darkness after having committed suicide.

What mistake did he make? He didn't trust that in Jesus his guilt was removed!

[volgadon]

He didn't trust in Christ that his sin might be removed.

Why is overcoming sin because of guilt wrong?

If we don't feel guilt, we don't care.

[Echo]

I think we are wasting our time. Echo is content with his do nothing to be saved gospel. I am tired of going around and around on the merry go round.

Your making remarks based on your own misunderstandings and ignorance in the matter.

Salvation is the horse, sanctification is the cart. Works belong in the cart and have no place in the horse. We are discussing the horse and not the cart. Please keep that in mind and don't get the two confused.

[volgadon]

By guilt I mean feeling of guilt, or being pricked in the heart, as thhe ancients knew it, so don't bother to post any verses about guilt being removed, becuase it is not quite the same thing. That is talking about a condition, not a feeling.

[Echo]

Certainly, even on your view, there are some conditions to salvation. For example, in order for X to be saved X has to exist. There's one condition