Parable of Sheep and Goats and salvation requirements

[Echo]

Sure thing... Volgadon had said:

To which you responded:

To which I added the verses in Hebrews 10 which contradicts what you said. If Jesus had already Forgiven your sin when he declared "it finished" as you asserted, then God would not hold the sins of a beleiver against him yet he does. Even more so than a none-beleiver.

Okay, I think I understand your point now.

Forgiveness was won on the cross. Forgiveness for past, present and future sins.

As believers, when we sin, we confess our sin and keep drawing from that endless well of forgiveness that was Guaranteed to us on the cross.

That's what makes confession so easy. We already have certainty we are forgiven.

[Echo]

Yet Hebrews 10 Says God counts beleivers sins commited "after coming to know the truth" against them.

Here it is again since you don't seem to have read it.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses

[Zakuska]

That's right, you can be forgiven and throw it all away.

Now I don't get what your'e saying... because these are talking about sins committed after Chirts blood has cleansed you and you tromple his precious blood into the dirt.

[Echo]

Still don't see where it says you are forgiven without having to do a thing, no, not even believe. Nobody is disputing that the atonement is how we are reconciled unto God.

Now, are you going to address those words of the Saviour that I posted and explain how belief is not a requirement?

In those passages God has reconciled his "enemies" to himself not counting their sins against them. That means that God doesn't count the sins of both believer and unbeliever, both the righteous and the wicked, against them. They are all forgiven. But now what you ask, right? Okay,

Let me use an anology and keep in mind that analogies generally make ONE point. Let's not try to make more than one point out of this analogy.

Lets say I put a $100.00 bill in your coat pocket without your realizing it. You put the coat on and go home. You are $100.00 richer whether you know it or not. Obviously you don't benefit from having that $100.00 in your pocket until you know it's there, but it is there none the less and it is yours. Lets say I call you up and tell you I put it in your pocket. You believe me(have faith it's true).

While you need faith to benefit, your faith wasn't responsible for that $100.00 being placed in your pocket. That $100.00 I gave you was all my doing.

In the same way, faith isn't a requirement to be forgiven. Faith is the means through which you seize that which was already given to you.

[Echo]

Now I don't get what your'e saying... because these are talking about sins committed after Chirts blood has cleansed you and you tromple his precious blood into the dirt.

That verse is talking about a whole lifestyle of living in sin without sorrow or desire to change.

[Tanyan]

True Faith that activates/accesses/makes alive True Grace Is a Law - which is to be Obeyed -

http://www.tgm.org/FaithIsALaw.html

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Zakuska]

In the same way, faith isn't a requirement to be forgiven. Faith is the means through which you seize that which was already given to you.

Don't you get it? By placing faith as the means of getting something you are making faith a requirement. No Faith = No means, for you to sieze anything wether it's already been given or not.

[Zakuska]

That verse is talking about a whole lifestyle of living in sin without sorrow or desire to change.

Talking about "adding to and taking away from scripture".

There is absolutly nothing about living in sin or not desiring change in that verse.

Here it is again... please quit reading things into the verse that are not there.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Sins commited by a beleiver are not covered by Christs blood Period. Since you willfully trample over the blood of Christ already spilled for

you. They become spots on your clean white coat Christ gave you.

Thats what James is talking about right here...

James 1

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

[Tanyan]

Echo, from my lights/observation you are not useing the Anchient Middle eastern understanding of the word "Faith" as used by the Anchient O.T/N.T Israelites/Saints but a private self interpetive interpetation.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[WalkerW]

Echo, from my lights/observation you are not useing the Anchient Middle eastern understanding of the word "Faith" as used by the Anchient O.T/N.T Israelites/Saints but a private self interpetive interpetation.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Which is why he never even touched anything I wrote.

[Vance]

Which is why he never even touched anything I wrote.

And why they are not ever likely to.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

And why they are not ever likely to.

THe thing that did it for me is when Echo claimed "That beleif isn't required", then he tells me to "beleive it". Oh I guess that is just how God works, His ways are not ours and it doesn't need to be consistant or logical.

[Vance]

THe thing that did it for me is when Echo claimed "That beleif isn't required", then he tells me to "beleive it". Oh I guess that is just how God works, His ways are not ours and it doesn't need to be consistant or logical.

See my post #576.

I interacted with Echo for a long time over on an anti-Mormon site. What you see here is just the way he is.

[WalkerW]

As for belief not being a requirement, I beg to differ.

"What shall we do that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." (John 6:28-29)

Jesus here states that "believe" is the "work of God" that those questioning are to do. It is an objective genitive, making God the one who receives the work i.e. the "work towards God" or "work done for God". This is why the NET translates vs. 29 "This is the deed God requires-to believe in the one whom he sent."

[Calm]

Perhaps it would be easier to understand Echo's point by using a similar claim of LDS belief (and Echo can correct me if I've misunderstood). LDS do not believe that anyone has to do anything, including believe they are going to be resurrected, in order to be resurrected. That part of the Atonement is open to all whether they want it or not. It seems like Echo is equating being forgiven to being in a certain state as opposed to having undergone a process.

Because Christ paid the debt for the sin, Echo sees the sins as all forgiven, in essence the 'money' for the debt has been given to the original creditor and thus the debt is canceled out, the sin forgiven. Everyone is therefore debt free or forgiven in his paradigm.

OTOH, LDS see the act of Christ's payment for the sins and the act of forgiveness for those sins as two separate occasions and I think the Bible backs us up on this, including where God says he will forgive who he will, not that he has forgiven all.

[Vance]

2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"

Ah, the inerrantist's favorite version. How good is this version?

God breathed?

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Actually the Greek word is "theopneustos".

"Theo" meaning God and "pneustos" a variant of the word "pneuma" or spirit (as in 1 Cor 2:11) and it literally means spirited.

The word

[Echo]

Don't you get it? By placing faith as the means of getting something you are making faith a requirement. No Faith = No means, for you to sieze anything wether it's already been given or not.

The life is in the water, the hose is the means through which the water flows

[Zakuska]

The life is in the water, the hose is the means through which the water flows

No hose no means for you to get the water. You cant get one without the other.

[Echo]

Talking about "adding to and taking away from scripture".

There is absolutly nothing about living in sin or not desiring change in that verse.

Here it is again... please quit reading things into the verse that are not there.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Sins commited by a beleiver are not covered by Christs blood Period. Since you willfully trample over the blood of Christ already spilled for

you. They become spots on your clean white coat Christ gave you.

Thats what James is talking about right here...

James 1

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Yes the verse does say that they don't desire to change, see Verse 26 word 5

[Echo]

Echo, from my lights/observation you are not useing the Anchient Middle eastern understanding of the word "Faith" as used by the Anchient O.T/N.T Israelites/Saints but a private self interpetive interpetation.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

I am using the meaning of the word as found in a dictionary

[Echo]

Which is why he never even touched anything I wrote.

Are you confusing me with someone else?

[Echo]

See my post #576.

I interacted with Echo for a long time over on an anti-Mormon site. What you see here is just the way he is.

For the record, I don't recall having ever conversed with you Vance over at the site to which you are refering. Unless you had some other name over there. What was your name?

CFR please

~

[volgadon]

Ah, the inerrantist's favorite version.

What they fail to notice is that this is a general statement about scripture, not a list of which books constitute the scriptures, or that scriptures are perfect, infallible, or indeed all of God's word.

[volgadon]

I am using the meaning of the word as found in a dictionary

What kind of dictionary.

[Zakuska]

Yes the verse does say that they don't desire to change, see Verse 26 word 5

"Willfully" or as the Lexicon puts it "Willingly" (Nothing about "Desire" in the verse)

IOW If we come to know Christ and beleive in him. Yet after knowing all he has done for us we sin again we trample his blood under foot and will be judged as a spotted lamb. beleivers are held to a much mor stringent standard when it comes to sin than a non-believer.