Vance Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 The "will of the Father" differs for the sheep and the goats.According to the Bible, what is "the will of the father" for those whom the savior does not know?The goats were rejected because they did not do "the will of the Father".Well, I did a search for "the will of the father" and all I got was;John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.Not sure how this verse applies to our topic.Edited to add more respect.
FormerLDS Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 Well, let's see...to be born again, one must be born of water and the spirit. Born of water is baptism, and born of the Spirit is receiving the Holy Ghost. In order to be baptized, one must first bring forth fruit worthy of repentance. God does not repent for us, that is something we have to DO. After we are baptized, we must follow the teachings of Christ. Again, this is something we have to DO.The parable right before the sheep/goats, the talents, makes it obviously clear that the one that is cast out is the one that does nothing. It is only the ones that do their best that enter into the joy of the Lord.When the scriptures are taken as a whole, there is absolutely no support for your philosophy."Born of water" is not baptism. That is your natural birth.Read the verse before and verse after. The natural birth then spiritual birth scenario is obvious."4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born(natural birth) when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born ? 5 Jesus answered , Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water(natural birth) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh(natural birth) is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." John 3
Zakuska Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 "Born of water" is not baptism. That is your natural birth.So says the 21st Century Apostate Christian... What did the Christians who learned form Jesus Think?St. Irenaeus a second century Church Father Those who are persuaded and believe that the things we teach and say are true, and promise that they can live accordingly, are instructed to pray and beseech God with fasting for the remission of their past sins, while we pray and fast along with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are reborn by the same manner of rebirth by which we ourselves were reborn; for they are then washed in the water in the name of God the Father and Master of all, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit. For Christ said, "Unless you are born again you will not enter into the Kingdom of heaven." Now it is clear to all that those who have once come into being cannot enter the wombs of those who bore them. But as I quoted before, it was said through the prophet Isaiah how those who have sinned and repent shall escape from their sins. He said this: "Wash yourselves, be clean, take away wickednesses from your souls, learn to do good, give judgement for the orphan and defend the cause of the widow, and come and let us reason together, says the Lord. And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them as white as wool, and though they be as crimson, I will make them as white as snow. If you will not listen to me, the sword will devour you; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken these things" (#61; Richardson, 282)http://catholic-reso...cs-Baptism.htmlHmm even Isaiah takes John 3:5 to be washing in Water at the Jewish Mickva. Sorry FromerLDS Ill take the words of REAL Christians over yours 10 ways to sunday!
Vance Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 "Born of water" is not baptism. That is your natural birth. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.Jesus makes a declaration.4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother
Zakuska Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.Jesus makes a declaration.4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 You can't become a child of God though good works; you must be born again first.You must have faith first. Born again happens when you are baptized and then recieve the HG. Faith is but the first step. Not the last.
FormerLDS Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 Well, I did a search for "the will of the father" and all I got was;John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.Not sure how this verse applies to our topic.Edited to add more respect.According to Jesus Christ, this is the "will of the father" for those whom the savior does not know:John 6:30 says
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 The "will of the Father" differs for the sheep and the goats.According to the Bible, what is "the will of the father" for those whom the savior does not know?The goats were rejected because they did not do "the will of the Father".This isn't making any sense. The will of the father differs for the sheep and the goats, but the goats are goats because they didn't do the will of the father?? Were is it said that the goats had a "different will of the Father"? You are making things up.From the parable of the Sheep and the Goats, what specifically did that Goats not do. Can you name them for me? Thanks.
Zakuska Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 According to Jesus Christ, this is the "will of the father" for those whom the savior does not know:John 6:30 says
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 "Born of water" is not baptism. That is your natural birth.Read the verse before and verse after. The natural birth then spiritual birth scenario is obvious.It is, were is that distinction made?? I see that Jesus tells us that we need to be born again. Nicodemus is the one that thought he was talking about a physical birth, which is ironicly the same thing you are doing. Jesus expounds what being born again composes of 2 things, that is that one must be born again in the physical sense through a water baptism and then we must be spiritually born again through the HG. The scipture verses indicate that we had been physicall born before and spiritually born before. That is what the term "born again" means, that you have be re-born.Side note: These scripture has great implications for your theology if you wish to interprit it the way you do. You must admit then that our spirit exsisted prior to us being born as how can our spirits be born again if they were never born in the first place."4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born(natural birth) when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born ? 5 Jesus answered , Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water(natural birth) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh(natural birth) is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." John 3And yet you wish to ignore the implications of what being born again means. You wish to only look ath the spiritual side, wile ignoring the physical side were in we must be born again.
Vance Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 According to Jesus Christ, this is the "will of the father" for those whom the savior does not know:John 6:30 says
WalkerW Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 FormerLDS,The real question is what is "faith"? Can you actually define it as it was understood in Christ's day?
Vance Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 FormerLDS,The real question is what is "faith"? Can you actually define it as it was understood in Christ's day?The second quote in my signature line is applicable at this point.Edited to add more respect
Tanyan Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 FormerLDS I take it is the same FormerLDS that has posted here in the past. If so and if my memory is correct he/she] is a Fundamentalist Independant Baptist [Or used to attend that denominational church there]. I myself was a Methodist as a baby/small child, Fundamentalist Independant Baptist as a young teenager and became LDS in my late teens. I have friends who are Roman Catholic Orthodox, Coptic Egyptian Catholic Orthodox, Greek Catholic Orthodox, Protestant, Reformed, Restorationalist, of which I have interacted with, attended church services with and Bible studies with those individuals that attend those various church denominations. I have observed in the brief reading of this thread that FormerLDS does not engage or interact with the referenced posts with links to material that respond to his/her polemic. I believe that FormerLDS stated that he/she does not have time to read all the material we link to that responds to his rhetorical polemics. This is a neccesity on FormerLDS part, if this attitude was taken that way in school FormerLDS would not go far. But a Spiritual witness is always best from the Holy Ghost. I may say this differently than my fellow LDS JEDI KNIGHT Brothers/Sisters In Christ Jesus comrads but we are Saved by Grace [charis] alone through Faith [pistis] alone. The understanding of the True Salvation Formula of what the words Grace and Faith meant to the Anchient middle eastern Israelites/Christians when they read or spoke those words in everyday life in there time period. We do not do works of Rightiousness that we have been commanded to do to be Saved, but to show that we "want" to BE and STAY Saved in the Covenant we made with GOD when we accepted Jesus Christ as The LORD OF OUR LIFE, LORD, SAVIOUR,GOD,KING,MASTER. The Gift of Faith we have been offered must be accepted and used to Glorify our Father in Heaven and our Fellow man/woman.We are offered and given different gifts by GOD and it is up to us to use them. We participate in our Salvation by way of saying thank you for the work of Jesus Christ on our behalf, and we have been commanded to become even as he is . May Grace shine on all. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
FormerLDS Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.Jesus makes a declaration.4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother
FormerLDS Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 FormerLDS,The real question is what is "faith"? Can you actually define it as it was understood in Christ's day?My faith is working my fingers to the bone, but my faith can't save me because my faith is sinful and can die.Only the faith of Jesus Christ can save anyone. His faith has become "mine", but it is still His faith that saved me.
Zakuska Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 We've been born once already through physical birth, then (some will be) born again through spiritual birth.First comes physical birth then spiritual birth.3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."Born again" refers to a second, spiritual birth which accompanies the physical birth.4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?Nicodemus does not understand spiritual birth, and is only thinking in terms of PHYSICAL BIRTH.5 Jesus answered , Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Reiterating the "born again" (second birth) concept, Jesus refers to PHYSICAL BIRTH first as "born of water", then the second birth as "Spirit". 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The physical birth then spiritual birth process is repeated again just for clarification. "Born of the flesh" is physical birth and "born of the Spirit" is the spiritual birth.If your interpretation is true then Hebrews and the book of Acts lies. Heb. 10: 2222 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Acts 10: 47 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
WalkerW Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 My faith is working my fingers to the bone, but my faith can't save me because my faith is sinful and can die.Only the faith of Jesus Christ can save anyone. His faith has become "mine", but it is still His faith that saved me.This didn't answer my question. What is "faith"?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 My faith is working my fingers to the bone, but my faith can't save me because my faith is sinful and can die.Only the faith of Jesus Christ can save anyone. His faith has become "mine", but it is still His faith that saved me.So we don't even need to ahve faith now? Just the fact that Jesus has faith, his faith alone is enough to save us?? Are you a Calvinist?How did "his" faith become yours?? Can we expect more equivocation in the future from you?
Vance Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 <SNIP>Nothing new here, just the same old drivel.Notice that Jesus doesn't say "born of the water and born of the spirit"?That is because "born of the water and of the spirit" describes a single birth that is the second birth.The first birth is done with water, blood and spirit.The second birth requires the same, the water of baptism, the blood of Christ and the Spirit (Holy Ghost).It's really that simple.
WalkerW Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 So, is FormerLDS's interpretation of Eph. 2:8, "For by grace are ye saved, through Christ's faith"?
Vance Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 My faith is working my fingers to the bone, but my faith can't save me because my faith is sinful and can die.Only the faith of Jesus Christ can save anyone. His faith has become "mine", but it is still His faith that saved me.Instead of "working (your) fingers to the bone", why don't you actually read the information Walker has given you and then answer his question?
WalkerW Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 Sidenote on John 3:5: The Greek is "of water and spirit." This is a single birth.
Zakuska Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 So, is FormerLDS's interpretation of Eph. 2:9 is, "For by grace are ye saved, through Christ's faith"?But of course... Christ fullfilled all Righteouness, all that are saved are saved and those that are damned are damned and nothing anybody does is going to change it one way or another. This also means that those who go to hell, its Gods fault because God was unable to save them. The next logical step is the Gospel doesn't need to be preached because it wouldn't change one iotta of who has already been saved and who already has been damned and nothing can be done for anybody anyway, since it was already set in stone at the foundation of the earth and cannot be changed. All that Paul did was in vain...Rom. 11: 14 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 1 Cor. 9: 22 22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. PS. Why is Paul trying to "PROVOKE" people to DO something to be saved? If Jesus did it all already then no amount of preaching by Paul would make a difference one way or the other.
Tanyan Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 WOW, FormerLDS the early Christian Bishops/Church leaders would have agreed with you at all ! . In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
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