The Problem of Salvation

[DLClark]

Repentance.

No one is saying that baptism saves. No one is saying that baptism saves. No one is saying that baptism saves. But Jesus did say that we must do that to enter the kingdom of God.

Natural birth is being born of blood or born of flesh or even born of woman, but being born of water is baptism. Once we are born of water for the remission of sins we are baptized by the spirit, which completes our rebirth.

Yes, unbelief condemns, because unbelief will not cause one to be baptized, or obey the commandments, or follow Christ. It is our faith that spurs us to action. Faith without works is dead. We are saved by grace through Faith. Does dead faith save?

And you have not answered my question as to what comes after salvation. Once we are saved, then what?

After death there is no second chance to be save for the Bible says this Heb 9:27

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

KJV

The Bible teaches that God can not accept good works from a bad sourse. He declares that all men are sinners, and lost Rom 3:23

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

KJV

It is not a matter of how far short each individual has come, but that all men have sinned and come short of the glory of God. If there was a 1000 foot cap to reach heaven that we all had to coss by trying to jump across it or fall 10,000 feet to our death how far would we get when we jumped? Each man would try to jump across and each would fall short and come to their death. All maen would fail and be doomed because they were short of the mark of the 10,000 foot gap. Not only that, but good works from an unrepentant heart are condemned and are not considered by God at all Is 64:6. If all our righteousness are as filthy rags to God, what an insult it must be to Him for us to try to buy our salvation with them. Many filthy rags would be even more insulting that a few.

God sent Jesus to die in bloody agony on the cross to totally pay for all our sins. How it must hurt Him when we insist on hanging the dirty rags of our good works on the cross to "help Jesus save us" rather that accepting this great gift of salvation by faith.

The problem is deeper that just the sins we commit however. the real problem is the sin nature every human being inherited from Adam, Romans 5:12. The sin nature is the sin factory that keeps producing sin. Not all factories produce that same kind of sin, and not all factories produce the same amount of sin. Some sins are gross; some are socially acceptable, even highly regarded in some circles. However, all are abominable to God. If we allow bottles to represent the sin product by these sin factories, we might spend a lifetime destroying the bottles in a losing effort. The factory is still there, and though on occasion it may change the form or brnd of the product or slow down or speed up production, it is the same old factory.

God says in John 1:12 that the problem is that we are not children of God. Men by nature are not children of but! John 1:12

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

KJV

Now God would not ask us to become Children of God if we were already children of God. He plainly says we have to receive Jesus in order to become children of God. He told religious but lost Nicodemus,

[Vance]

Have you done all that you can do in oder to merit being saved by grace,individual salvation?

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!!

This fits with Titus 3:5,

[DLClark]

Still copying and pasting without attribution I see. Why don't you just post the web site you copied if from to save bandwidth?

Vance, I am not copying and pasting. Did you read what I wrote to the other person? How can you, a sinner by nature and condmned by God Romans 3:23, make yourself acceptable to God through your good works? We die only once and after that the judgment with out Christ. John 3:15-18 in Jesus' words tells us when we believe we are saved when we do not believe we are judged. It is that simple. Jesus is talking about individual salvation. That is the only kind of salvation the talks about.

DLC

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Vance, I am not copying and pasting. Did you read what I wrote to the other person? How can you, a sinner by nature and condmned by God Romans 3:23, make yourself acceptable to God through your good works?

DLC

We do this through Faith. Owned.

[Zakuska]

After death there is no second chance to be save for the Bible says this Heb 9:27

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

KJV

And yet we arnt judged until the second coming.

2 Tim. 4: 1

1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

There are all kinds of things that can be done for the dead before judgement day.

The Bible teaches that God can not accept good works from a bad sourse. He declares that all men are sinners, and lost Rom 3:23

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

KJV

Yet even Sinners can do works pleasing unto God...

Heb 11

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

It is not a matter of how far short each individual has come, but that all men have sinned and come short of the glory of God. If there was a 1000 foot cap to reach heaven that we all had to coss by trying to jump across it or fall 10,000 feet to our death how far would we get when we jumped? Each man would try to jump across and each would fall short and come to their death. All maen would fail and be doomed because they were short of the mark of the 10,000 foot gap.

Very true. But that doesn't give us a free pass to not even try and attempt the jump. We do what we can and Christ makes up the difference.

Phil 2

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Not only that, but good works from an unrepentant heart are condemned and are not considered by God at all Is 64:6. If all our righteousness are as filthy rags to God, what an insult it must be to Him for us to try to buy our salvation with them. Many filthy rags would be even more insulting that a few.

Whats even more insulting to God is the attitude you are promoting. Not even trying to make an offering.

Prov. 21: 3

3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice

God sent Jesus to die in bloody agony on the cross to totally pay for all our sins. How it must hurt Him when we insist on hanging the dirty rags of our good works on the cross to "help Jesus save us" rather that accepting this great gift of salvation by faith.

Those who "profess" having faith keep his commandments.

1 Jn. 5: 2-3

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

The problem is deeper that just the sins we commit however. the real problem is the sin nature every human being inherited from Adam, Romans 5:12. The sin nature is the sin factory that keeps producing sin. Not all factories produce that same kind of sin, and not all factories produce the same amount of sin. Some sins are gross; some are socially acceptable, even highly regarded in some circles. However, all are abominable to God. If we allow bottles to represent the sin product by these sin factories, we might spend a lifetime destroying the bottles in a losing effort. The factory is still there, and though on occasion it may change the form or brnd of the product or slow down or speed up production, it is the same old factory

God says in John 1:12 that the problem is that we are not children of God. Men by nature are not children of but! John 1:12

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

KJV

Now God would not ask us to become Children of God if we were already children of God. He plainly says we have to receive Jesus in order to become children of God. He told religious but lost Nicodemus,

[Vance]

Vance, I am not copying and pasting.

DLC

Really now? Why is it that alot of your last several posts were cut and pasted from this:

http://www.gotellevangelism.org/assault3.htm

Humm?

It is Contrary to the Emphasis in John also.

While some form of the word

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Are you really not copying and pasting?

I was going to make a snarky remark. Good job in exposing this. Just come clean DLClark you have been cutting and pasting. You will get banned if you keep it up and you continue to fail to give the proper credit.

[Lightbearer]

The Bible no where teaches sinless perfection, 1 John 1:8-10. If we must keep God's commandments to be saved then we are in big trouble. Here is why.

James 2:10

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

KJV

Gal 3:10

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

KJV

You apparently like the taste of straw. You set up your little "saved by works" straw-men and try to pin them on LDS so you can burn them in effigy. I sometimes weary of even bothering to respond to such hardhearted bilge. You care nothing about understanding anyones position only trying to brand someone else with your misconceptions of what we believe. You are like the Jews quote your proof texts and say what we believe. You ignore our declarations that faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is the first principle of the Gospel. Without that starting place all would be fruitless. Paul and James were not quoting to LDS they were talking to the Jews who did not accept the atonement of Christ. The atonement was not given to excuse us from not being righteous, but to help us to become righteous. This is a process not a one-time-once saved always saved event! Read the following if you want to know what Mormons really believe:

(2 Nephi 31:5-21) "And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water! And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water? Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments. Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove. And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he having set the example before them. And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father? And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son. And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism

[Nemesis]

DLClark give proper citation or cease from posting. I will not give another warning to you about this.

Nemesis

[Flyonthewall]

After death there is no second chance to be save for the Bible says this Heb 9:27

But what about 1 Peter 3 & 4?

"5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

"18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

If there is no second chance, then why is the gospel preached to the dead/spirits in prison? 1 Peter disagrees with your interpretation.

The Bible teaches that God can not accept good works from a bad sourse. He declares that all men are sinners, and lost Rom 3:23

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

KJV

It is not a matter of how far short each individual has come, but that all men have sinned and come short of the glory of God. If there was a 1000 foot cap to reach heaven that we all had to coss by trying to jump across it or fall 10,000 feet to our death how far would we get when we jumped? Each man would try to jump across and each would fall short and come to their death. All maen would fail and be doomed because they were short of the mark of the 10,000 foot gap. Not only that, but good works from an unrepentant heart are condemned and are not considered by God at all Is 64:6. If all our righteousness are as filthy rags to God, what an insult it must be to Him for us to try to buy our salvation with them. Many filthy rags would be even more insulting that a few.

I think you need to look at the "filthy rags" bit again, and figure out who is being addressed and why. Is it the obedient House of Israel? or the Apostate House of Israel?

God sent Jesus to die in bloody agony on the cross to totally pay for all our sins. How it must hurt Him when we insist on hanging the dirty rags of our good works on the cross to "help Jesus save us" rather that accepting this great gift of salvation by faith.

The problem is deeper that just the sins we commit however. the real problem is the sin nature every human being inherited from Adam, Romans 5:12. The sin nature is the sin factory that keeps producing sin. Not all factories produce that same kind of sin, and not all factories produce the same amount of sin. Some sins are gross; some are socially acceptable, even highly regarded in some circles. However, all are abominable to God. If we allow bottles to represent the sin product by these sin factories, we might spend a lifetime destroying the bottles in a losing effort. The factory is still there, and though on occasion it may change the form or brnd of the product or slow down or speed up production, it is the same old factory.

God says in John 1:12 that the problem is that we are not children of God. Men by nature are not children of but! John 1:12

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

KJV

Now God would not ask us to become Children of God if we were already children of God. He plainly says we have to receive Jesus in order to become children of God. He told religious but lost Nicodemus,

[mrmendoza]

Does anyone remember what this thread was about to start with?

[Tanyan]

I am late to this "The Problem of Salvation" discussion, I have not read the entire thread but from my brief reading I proclaim that we are Saved by Grace [charis] alone through Faith [pistis] alone, that is the True salvatiion formula. The Key however is how Grace and Faith come together in one's Salvation Journey/Quest to be Justified/Sanctified/Glorified into the Heavenly Jerusalem [in which Kingdom] to dwell with the GOD The Father, GOD The Son Jesus Christ, and God The Holy Ghost.

In His Debt/Grace, tanyan- LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Flyonthewall]

Does anyone remember what this thread was about to start with?

Something different than the last 10 pages or so

[Tanyan]

Does anyone remember what this thread was about to start with?

Go to post #1 In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan- LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[mrmendoza]

Go to post #1 In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan- LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Been there, done that, got worn out by going in circles with Monty, then Dl hijacked the thread and for some reason everybody must like going in circles, because nobody want to shut down the merry-go-round!

Mike

[DLClark]

We do this through Faith. Owned.

Faith never saved anyone. What you put your faith in must be salvic. If the Mormon God of was a man who became a god then this so called god can not save for he was a man who needed saving himself. The true God of the Bible never had a beginning or an end. He created everything that ever was created and nothing came into existence aprat from Him John 1:3. This Only True God is Jesus Christ 1 John 5:20. If this is the god you are trusting in then great. Works do not come into play until after salvation Eph 2:10. There is no such thing a general salvation. If we believe we are saved and if we do not believe we are condemned, John 3:15-18, 36.

DLC

[DLClark]

Already answered. You are not listening.

Baptismal regeneration It is Contrary to Luke 23:43

The thief on the cross was saved by faith alone. He obviously could not be circumcised or baptized. The principle applies regardless of whether one wants to argue that he was still in the Old Testament economy. He was saved by faith alone. The corresponding ritual or ordinance for the Old Testament period was circumcision, yet the thief on the cross was neither circumcised nor baptized, but he did get saved.

You make assumptions with this that do not pan out. Nothing is said in the scriptures whether or not the thief was circumcised. Nothing is said in the scriptures on whether or not the thief was "saved" - this has been gone over before. You are not listening.

Then you ignore the scriptures.

Yes I have heard that there are some out there that believe being born of 'water' is the natural birth, but that is not true. The natural birth is being born of blood(John 1:13), or born after the flesh(Gal 4:29), not born of water.

Belief is the start of all things. If you believe, you will follow the commandments. If you believe, you will be baptized. If you believe, you will follow His teachings. Belief is the start, not the end.

You have spent a lot of time and effort arguing why the commandments and teachings are not required for salvation. Tell me, and I do expect an answer, what comes after salvation? Nothing but belief is required for salvation, why then were we given commandments and teachings? Once we are "saved" what is left?

Tell me, what was it that prepared the way of the Lord and to make His paths straight? Repentance and Baptism. What did the Lord tell the apostles to do? Teach all nations, baptizing them...The Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsels of God how? by not being baptized.

You take a few verses and base your entire belief on them, then strike down and argue against any other verse that may indicate that your belief is not complete.

Already answered several times. You are not listening.

Even when the scriptures are blatantly stating that baptism is for the remission of sins, you have to try and argue that they are not. I find your explainations convoluted and in disharmony with the scripture. I will leave you to them. Those that have ears to hear, let them hear...

[Zakuska]

This Only True God is Jesus Christ 1 John 5:20.

Jesus is the one true God?

John 17

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

John 20: 17

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Do you really think John was confused?

Works do not come into play until after salvation Eph 2:10.

DLC

Then why did WORKS save these Gentiles?

Romans 2

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Faith never saved anyone. What you put your faith in must be salvic. If the Mormon God of was a man who became a god then this so called god can not save for he was a man who needed saving himself. The true God of the Bible never had a beginning or an end. He created everything that ever was created and nothing came into existence aprat from Him John 1:3. This Only True God is Jesus Christ 1 John 5:20. If this is the god you are trusting in then great. Works do not come into play until after salvation Eph 2:10. There is no such thing a general salvation. If we believe we are saved and if we do not believe we are condemned, John 3:15-18, 36.

DLC

You asked how our works make us right with God. We do that through faith on Christ. You changed the arguemnt here which shows me that you don't really have an argument.

[Flyonthewall]

If you understand each passage in context and do you exegesis all those passage that you think teach baptismal regeneration are not teaching that at all. John 3:15-18 tells us how to be saved. These are words right from Jesus' mouth. He never said water bpatism saves. John never did, Paul never nor did any other NT writer say this. The Bible teaches that faith alone in Christ saves Eph 2:8-9, is not talking about general salvation. There is no such thing as general salvation. You are either saved individually by faith or not saved individually based on what you do with Jesus in faith.

You are very picky about which words of Christ that you listen to. You have an agenda and anything Jesus or the apostles say that contradict it, you argue that they do not mean what they are saying. It is like painting a picture of a rainbow, but only using one color. Or painting the Mona Lisa, but only using black and white. No matter how well you paint, the picture is incomplete.

We take all the words of Christ collectively and have a much fuller and richer picture than what you are trying to sell.

Have you done enough or all that you can to merit being saved by grace?

Already answered this.

If so how do you knoethis to be true?

Already answered this too.

[DLClark]

Jesus is the one true God?

John 17

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

John 20: 17

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Do you really think John was confused?

Then why did WORKS save these Gentiles?

Romans 2

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

The Romans passage does say that works save. In fact later on Romans says that works do not save: Rom 4:2-5

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.KJV Works do not save. If works do save then how can person person come to know that he has done all he can do to merit being saved by grace?

John 1:3

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

KJV

The True and only God of the Bible Jesus Christ made everything that has ever been made. John 1:18

18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

KJV

No person has ever seen God at any time. People have seen Jesus who is the exact image of the one true God. Joseph Smith did not see God the Father. God is a Spirit John 4:24

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

KJV

The Bible says no person can see God. We do see Jesus who is the perfect image of God the Father to us. We see Him in the words of Bible today.

John 14:5-9

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

KJV

Phillip asked to se God the Father. Jesus said that if you have seen Jesus you have seen the Fathe. The reson why this is true is because Jesus and the Father are the same one true and Living Creator God. Also, Is. 96 calls Jesus God the father.

Col 1:15-18

15 Who is the image (exact representaive)of the invisible God, the firstborn (not born first but this word refers to preeminence as verse 15 brings out)of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things (So if is is a god who came after God the Father then Jesus is not before all things. But we that He is the first cause of all things because He is the only one True God there is.), and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

KJV

Heb 1:8

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

KJV

Even God the Father calls Jesus God and says that His throne is eternal.

There is only one true and living creator God and that person is Jesus Christ. No persona, no even Mr. Smith has never seen God at any time. We have Jesus who manifests the one true God to us. When You place your faith in this one and only true God Jesus Christ you will be saved. There is no such thing as general salvation. The Bible says that if we do believe in Christ then when we die we are judged or condemned, Mark 16:16; John 3:15-18, 36. Check these verse out to see the relationship for faith salvation and condemnation.

DLC

[Vance]

If the Mormon God of was a man who became a god then this so called god can not save for he was a man who needed saving himself.

Jesus was a man who became a god, are you saying that He "was a man who needed saving himself"?

The true God of the Bible never had a beginning or an end.

So? The intelligence from which you were made never had a beginning or an end either. The spirit matter from which your spirit was made never had a beginning or an end either. The physical matter from which your body was made never had a beginning or an end either. So what is your point?

He created everything that ever was created and nothing came into existence aprat from Him John 1:3.

True, but He didn't create it from nothing.

This Only True God is Jesus Christ 1 John 5:20.

Do you even know how to read English? This verse is very clealy talking about the Father when it is refering to the "true God".

20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Jesus Christ is clearly the Son of Him that is the true God.

If this is the god you are trusting in then great.

He is!!!!

Works do not come into play until after salvation Eph 2:10.

Jesus clearly and plainly taught otherwise.

There is no such thing a general salvation.

Not true! Every one is SAVED from death!!!

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

If we believe we are saved and if we do not believe we are condemned, John 3:15-18, 36.

DLC

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16

[Zakuska]

DLClark,

There is only one true and living creator God and that person is Jesus Christ. No persona, no even Mr. Smith has never seen God at any time. We have Jesus who manifests the one true God to us. When You place your faith in this one and only true God Jesus Christ you will be saved. There is no such thing as general salvation. The Bible says that if we do believe in Christ then when we die we are judged or condemned, Mark 16:16; John 3:15-18, 36. Check these verse out to see the relationship for faith salvation and condemnation.

Thats news to Moses... And the 70 Elders...

Ex. 24: 10-11

10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Its also news to Amos

Amos 9: 1

1 I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, Smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake: and cut them in the head, all of them; and I will slay the last of them with the sword: he that fleeth of them shall not flee away, and he that escapeth of them shall not be delivered.

PS. Judgement does not come until Christs Second Coming.

2 Tim. 4: 1

1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

There is only one true and living creator God and that person is Jesus Christ. No persona, no even Mr. Smith has never seen God at any time. We have Jesus who manifests the one true God to us. When You place your faith in this one and only true God Jesus Christ you will be saved. There is no such thing as general salvation. The Bible says that if we do believe in Christ then when we die we are judged or condemned, Mark 16:16; John 3:15-18, 36. Check these verse out to see the relationship for faith salvation and condemnation.

DLClark,

Thats news to Moses... And the 70 Elders...

Ex. 24: 10-11

10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Its also news to Amos

Amos 9: 1

1 I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, Smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake: and cut them in the head, all of them; and I will slay the last of them with the sword: he that fleeth of them shall not flee away, and he that escapeth of them shall not be delivered.

PS. Judgement does not come until Christs Second Coming.

2 Tim. 4: 1

1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

It is easier than this. Did no one see Christ when he was here?

[Vance]

DLClark give proper citation or cease from posting. I will not give another warning to you about this.

Nemesis

What DLClark?

No confession of guilt?

No apology?