The Problem of Salvation

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Please remember that when you say most christians believe water baptism is needed for salvaion you are talking about Catholicism and other false religious groups that fall under Christianity.

I love your rhetoric.

[DLClark]

I love your rhetoric.

Here is how you know what a false religion is.

Here is what Paul said in Galatians.

Gal 1:6-9

I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

So, you are cursed if you do not bring the message that Paul taught. What was that message. the Bible tells us what it was. Read the next passage.

1 Cor 15:1-4

Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Any religion or person that does bring this message above is false.

Also, John says the same thing in a different way.

1 John 2:22-24

22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

1 John 4:1-4

2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of theantichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

1 John 5:18-20

18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. 19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. 20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

John is saying that if you do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah God, the one true Godthen you are not of the true religion. If you think that there are other Gods/gods then you are not of the truth. Jesus is the true God and eternal life. Now eternal is eternal. When we are saved by faith we recieve His life in us. What kind of life is that, eternal life. Not conditional life.

To believe that Jesus is the Christ is to believe that while He was here on earth He was God. He was never a man who bcame a god. He always was the only one true God. If you do accept this then this also means you are in a false religion.

DLC

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Here is how you know what a false religion is.

Here is what Paul said in Galatians.

Gal 1:6-9

DLC

Yes I am amazeds at how easily you are removed for what Jesus taught. In the parable of the sheeps and the goats, what separted the 2? Was it a belief in the "wrong jesus"? Was it that one had not confessed Jesus? Was it that one didn't have "salvic fiath".

Salvic faith is just another phrase for "faith with out works is dead".

[Vance]

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Repentance is a grace/gift from Jesus, so to be saved by grace does NOT exclude repentance as DLClark (the sex obsessed plagiarist) is implying.

[Vance]

Commandments are given (a grace) from God.

Being saved by grace does NOT exclude obedience from God given commandments.

Obedience brings another grace/gift from God.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

[Zakuska]

Here is how you know what a false religion is.

Hmmm... According to James a false religion is one who doesn't do works of righteousness and take care of the sick and the needy, and one who teaches that keeping the commandments of God are not needed to remain saved and unspotted from the world.

James 1

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Why doesn't that sound like the Religion you are pushing DLCLARK?

[Vance]

Why does that NOT sound like the Religion you are pushing DLCLARK?

I think that is what you meant to say.

[Zakuska]

To believe that Jesus is the Christ is to believe that while He was here on earth He was God. He was never a man who bcame a god. He always was the only one true God. If you do accept this then this also means you are in a false religion.

DLC

Paul must have missed your memo?!

1 Tim. 2: 5

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Christ indeed was a man... an imperfect man who just like the rest of us could die...

Heb. 5: 9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

And then be MADE perfect.

PS. Did you notice that Salvation is contigent on being obedient to Jesus Christ? Didn't you say all that was necesarry was to beleive?

[Vance]

Luke 13:32 And he (Jesus) said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

[Zakuska]

Excellent verse.

[Lightbearer]

PS. No verse in the Bible teaches that we can lose our salvation. If you think a passage teaches that then you have not done your exegesis of that passage very well. Remember you must understand the passage in the context for which it is written. Context is everything for understanig what the passage is teaching.

So in other words if one does not follow your deluded idea that if we are "once saved always saved" then obviously we are not interpreting it right! Are you assuming that you know the context for which all the scriptures are written? What pray tell does Peter mean here:

(2 Peter 2:20-22) "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

I do not understand how you can twist these words into your "once saved always saved by grace alone" fantasy. Please do not insult my intelligence by trying to say Peter was talking about those "who were not really saved" because the text states that the people referred to had once already escaped sin through Christ (saved) and they had become entangled again (sinning). That means they were believers and that they had returned to their old way of life, a life of sin.

[Zakuska]

So in other words if one does not follow your deluded idea that if we are "once saved always saved" then obviously we are not interpreting it right! Are you assuming that you know the context for which all the scriptures are written? What pray tell does Peter mean here:I do not understand how you can twist these words into your "once saved always saved by grace alone" fantasy. Please do not insult my intelligence by trying to say Peter was talking about those "who were not really saved" because the text states that the people referred to had once already escaped sin through Christ (saved) and they had become entangled again (sinning). That means they were believers and that they had returned to their old way of life, a life of sin.

To add to that... Theres a lot more to being saved... one must not bring up briars and thorns or one gets burned.

Heb 6

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God fresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto acursing; whose end is to be burned.

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Also, these people have been "INDWELT" by the holy spirit yet still FALL AWAY and are not saved, because they don't bring forth FRUITS meet for repantance! Good works are SOOO inseperable from grace that it is futile to even try too.

If Salvation is so sure as DLClark pretends, then these scriptures should be removed from the Bible because they are meaningless.

[Doctor Steuss]

I just noticed I

[Vance]

I just noticed I

[DLClark]

Yes I am amazeds at how easily you are removed for what Jesus taught. In the parable of the sheeps and the goats, what separted the 2? Was it a belief in the "wrong jesus"? Was it that one had not confessed Jesus? Was it that one didn't have "salvic fiath".

Salvic faith is just another phrase for "faith with out works is dead".

James never says to work for your faith? He says does say though that our faith should work. Works are the fruit of our salvation. Works are never the means of being saved.

Q. Paul said this, Acts 16:31

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved,

KJV

Now, if a person believes on the Lord Jesus Christ like Paul here says to do will they be saved as Paul say they will?

I am not talking about what James say about the demons. They tremble which is no faith at all but just a complete understanding of things without a heart felt faith or trust in Christ as their personal Savior. The demon know all the facts about Christ but have not commited themselves to Him in saving faith.

DLC

[Vance]

Now, if a person believes on the Lord Jesus Christ like Paul here says to do will they be saved as Paul say they will?

I have ask you a question SEVERAL TIMES and you have continually ignored it. And now that you again broached the topic I will ask again.

(Will he continue to ignore it, stay tuned)

Can you believe "on the Lord Jesus Christ" and not believe and DO what He plainly and clearly taught?

What say you?

[Zakuska]

The demon know all the facts about Christ but have not commited themselves to Him in saving faith.

DLC

This is just another way of saying the demons don't do works Meet for repentance. You couldn't separate works from the equation of Salvation if you tried so why are you trying SOOOOO hard to do it?

Q: Now, if a person believes on the Lord Jesus Christ like Paul here says to do will they be saved as Paul say they will?

I think its best to let Paul answer your question for you:

Acts 16

32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house

After they were Baptized in water they were saved... just like Paul said they would be.

Now I have a Question for you...

Q: Can you have Salvation from from Jesus if you fail to obey his commandments?

Heb. 5: 9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

[DLClark]

I have ask you a question SEVERAL TIMES and you have continually ignored it. And now that you again broached the topic I will ask again.

(Will he continue to ignore it, stay tuned)

Can you believe "on the Lord Jesus Christ" and not believe and DO what He plainly and clearly taught?

What say you?

Answer. Works do not save you. They are the fruit of faith not the means to salvation.

Eph 2:8-10

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

KJV

Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,

KJV

2 Tim 1:8-9

the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from

Since salvation is a gift when do you have to work for a gift.

Grace and works are mutually exclusive.Rom 11:6

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

KJV

How you good works save you when Isaiah says this about your works, Isa 64:6

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

KJV

Since we are all unclean how can works of righteousness make us clean? They can't. Only the blood of Christ applied to the believing sinner cleanses us..

Isa 64:6

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

KJV

Eph 2:13

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

KJV

Heb 9:13-14

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

KJV

1 Peter 1:18-19

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

KJV

1 John 1:7-8

the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8

Only the blood of Christ shed on the Cross for our sins applied to the believing sinner fixes our sin problem

So where do works come into play. Titus has the answer for us. Titus 3:8

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

KJV

Titus 2:14

4 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

KJV

Notice Titus says that those who have believed (saved by faith) should maintain good works.

Also, was the thief on the cross saved by faith apart from works yes. Was Abraham saved by faith apart from works. Yes. Rom 4:1-5

4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

KJV

Now when you turn to James please find a verse there that says your saved by works. James is not talking about how to be saved but what to do with the saving faith that we have. If we are saved good work should follow. Paul said that is the reason why God saved us, to show forth our faith with out works. No passage in the Bible says that we are saved by works. Works are the end result or fruit of our salvation. Never the means to obtaining salvation.

If you think other wise then here is a question for you honestly answer;

Q. Have you done ALL that you can do in order to merit being saved by grace?

Honestly now,

have you ever lied? If so you have not done all that you can do becuause you have lied.

Have you been angry? Being angry diqualifies you from individual salvation.

Have you ever done your good works with the wrong attitude?

Have you ever coveted?

Have you ever been jealous?

Have you ever faied to love the Lord with all of your heart?

If you done any othe these things just ones you are disqualified from heaven even individual and general salvation.

James 2:10

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

KJV

Gal 3:10

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

KJV

DLC

[Vance]

Gee DLClark (the sex obsessed plagiarist) that was a very long NON ANSWER!!!!

I didn't even waste my time reading it.

Just answer the question.

Can you believe "on the Lord Jesus Christ" and not believe and DO what He plainly and clearly taught?

It really isn't a difficult question. A simple "yes" or "no" will do.

[DLClark]

Gee DLClark (the sex obsessed plagiarist) that was a very long NON ANSWER!!!!

I didn't even waste my time reading it.

Just answer the question.

Can you believe "on the Lord Jesus Christ" and not believe and DO what He plainly and clearly taught?

It really isn't a difficult question. A simple "yes" or "no" will do.

I am glad you did not read what I sent. Why correspond if you do read what I write. Works are only applicable after salvation as the Bible says. We do not work for that which is a gift. Have you ever had to work fro a gift. If you do then the gift is no gift at all but a wage.

Have you read Romans 11:6 and Eph 2:8-9?

DLC

[Doctor Steuss]

Answer. Works do not save you. They are the fruit of faith not the means to salvation.

Eph 2:8-10[...]

There you have it folks.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Have you read Romans 11:6 and Eph 2:8-9?

DLC

Yes several times. What part of those scritpures do you feel answers Vances point?

Tell me, what separates the goats from the sheep?

[DLClark]

There you have it folks.

[Doctor Steuss]

Have you done enough good works to merit being saved by grace? Individual salvation that is.

DLC

Have you stopped beating your wife?

[Vance]

Thank goodness we have such upright individuals, who have the ability to see into the hearts of Mormons, to condemn them to the sweltering pits of hell with their superior understanding of not only the Bible, but also of Mormon scripture, history, philosophy, and culture.

What are sex obsessed plagiarist for?