The Problem of Salvation

[Zakuska]

I must be on DLClarks ignore list.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

This section of the Olivet discourse is dealing with the judgment of the nations. Matt 24:4-31 answers the question the disciples had about the signs of the end of the age and the return of the Lord. This section in Matt 25 beginning at v. 31 Jesus is describing the period following His second coming. Jesus here is not talking about a general judgment. There is no mention of resurrection of either the righteous or the wicked, and "all nations" seems to exclude Israel.

I cannot see were "Israel seems to be excluded" That is you reading into the text that which is not there. And it is a judgment. Nothing needs to be said about the resurrection as all who lived will be resurrected. All nations means that the whole world will be brought before Jesus to be judged.

This passage more precisely than any other of the judgments found in the Bible describes the judgment of the world at the beginning of Christ's millennial kingdom. The church is already with the Lord and saved based on their faith in Him not on their good work. The time of judgment is found in Matt 25:31. this happens when the Christ returns. Remember that Romans 8:1 says that for those who are in Christ there is no condemnation. We are placed in Christ the very moment we are saved. Romans 8:9; 1 Cor. 12:13.

I agree that at the return of Jesus the judgment will happen. The passage is ambiguous so it is impossible for you to make statements that some one will be excluded.

There are only two places people can go. everlasting punishment for those who reject Christ and eternal life for those trust Him. When we compare the two judicial sentences we discover some interesting facts. The sheep were blessed of the Father; but it does not say that the goats were cursed of the Father. The sheep inherit the kingdom not based on their works but because they had the right blood line.

Really? Were does it say that?

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

I see that the sheep will inherit the kingdom that was prepared for them. What do the goats get?

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

So the sheep get a kingdom the goats are cursed into everlasting fire.

Why were the sheep blessed? Here is you answer which the text strongly disagree with your answer of "The sheep inherit the kingdom not based on their works but because they had the right blood line." It is just the opposite. Here are the relevant passages.

35 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

I see no mention of having the "right blood lines" What I see is that the sheep did something that the goats had. They visited the sick they did works. Sorry but your saved by faith alone is completely destroyed by this parable. The main thing that separates the 2 groups is that one worked righteous works the other did not. This means that if you do not have works you cannot be saved. Works therefore are impossible to be a product of salvation as works are exactly why they goats are on the left and the sheep are on the right.

What did the goats fail to do? Here are the passages.

42 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or thirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

It is clear that these passages are talking about the whole world and that all will be judged. What will they be judged on? Their works. Did you visit the sick? Did visit the people in prison? IF you do not these things you cannot be saved. The scriptures are clear.

Inheritance is based on belonging to the right family. For the Christian we inherit eternal life by faith in Christ not based on our good works. The sheep here had been born again through faith, they inherited the kingdom. This passage is part of the Olivet discourse. It is dealing with Israel and that Israel would be purified and brought into the Kingdom through their faith in Christ/Messiah. God has not cast His people away.

Q Please answer my question mow. Have you done enough good works to merit being saved by grace?

DLC

Yes an inheritance is based on belonging to the "right family". How does one belong to Christ's family? We must have faith, however we see in this passage that the goats knew the master. By the way we become Israel an adopted into that family when we accept Christ. It is funny that in this passage the goats were Israel too. By your own words you claimed "It is dealing with Israel"

It is evident that faith alone is not enough. Why were the sheep and the goats separated? Based on what? It is their works. One did do them the other did not. Again this destroys the notion that works are a product of salvation as the goats were not saved by their faith (they knew the master) alone. Here is the relevant passage.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or thirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Why would the goats call him Lord if they know him not?

Sorry but you did not do a very good job of understanding the scriptures. I sure hope you are not teaching this to other people as what you have taught is mostly false. You will be held accountable for it.

One more nice thing is that at the beginning of your post you talk about how those passaged "exclude" Israel. At the end all you talk about is "blood lines" and that the passages are all about Israel. So which is it?

You are flip flopping like a fish out of water here.

[Vance]

DLClark apparently has been banned from the Catholic Answers forum.

Gee, I wonder why?

[Doctor Steuss]

DLClark apparently has been banned from the Catholic Answers forum.

Gee, I wonder why?

Some people find zombie hydra writers frightening.

It

[DLClark]

STILL AVOIDING THE QUESTION!!!!!!!!

It must really scare you to answer this question.

Can you believe "on the Lord Jesus Christ" and not believe and DO what He plainly and clearly taught?

It really isn't a difficult question. A simple "yes" or "no" will do.

Both yes and no. Anyone can do what Jesus says without having faith in Him but it does not coundt. We are saved by faith alone but that faith that alone saves us is not alone. It is accompanied by good work or at least should be. Titus 3:8

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

KJV

Now will you answer my question.

Honestly have you done all that you can do to merit being saved by grace? Be honests if you say yes how do you know that you have done all that you can do?

DLC

[Zakuska]

Both yes and no. Anyone can do what Jesus says without having faith in Him but it does not coundt.

It doesn't count?

Romans 2

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their cconscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Both yes and no. Anyone can do what Jesus says without having faith in Him but it does not coundt. We are saved by faith alone but that faith that alone saves us is not alone. It is accompanied by good work or at least should be. Titus 3:8

8

DLC

More flopping about. How can you say we are saved by faith alone then tell us that it is not alone?

Yes and no?

Which is it?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

It doesn't count?

Romans 2

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their cconscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Oh snap.

[Tanyan]

Sorry DL your polemic against Water Baptism would not/ does not hold water. Many a EV Christian such as yourself deny and explain away the neccessity of Water Baptism but they fall by the wayside if understood in light of the anchient understanding and practice of the Holy Ones [saints of the Most High] by way of The Holy Ghost and the inspiration that it provides those in tune with it's Truth.

A detailed response to criticisms of water baptism have been given by our non LDS Christian JEDI KNIGHT Bretheren - http://www.bebaptized.org/ and the same excuses for not being baptized in water are responded to - http://www.bebaptized.org/Somecommonarguments.htm

As a response to explaining away the Apostalic Fathers View of the neccessity of Water baptism to Access Jesus Christs Atoneing sacrifice for us see - http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num2.htm

http://www.bebaptized.org/Undeniablefacts.htm http://www.bible.ca/H-baptism.htm

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[DLClark]

It doesn't count?

Romans 2

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their cconscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Do you obey God's law perfectly all of the time never missing once? If you do the right thing but with the wrong attitude then you condemned. Have you ever lied, stole, not loved God with all of your heart?

James 2:10 says that if you obey the Law but faith just once you failed completely.

Sure if we obey the Law perfectly we can just y it but please continue reading the rest of the thought down through Romans 5 to find out if man is capable of completely obeying the Law. Don't forget Romans 3:23 24.Her let me help. Rom 3:23-24

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

KJV

Notice God justifies us by his grace (unmerited favor, but you believe in merited grace)in Christ Jesus.

DLC

[DLClark]

STILL AVOIDING THE QUESTION!!!!!!!!

It must really scare you to answer this question.

Can you believe "on the Lord Jesus Christ" and not believe and DO what He plainly and clearly taught?

It really isn't a difficult question. A simple "yes" or "no" will do.

I answered your question now please do the same for mine.

Vance,

I do find any where in the verse where it says that if a person is NOT baptized he is not saved. Here is the verse Mark 16:16

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.KJV

I find that if a person does not believe he is damned. Mark does not say that if he is not baptized he is damned does he? Let's be specific. If Mark is saying that if a person is not batized he is damned other verses in the Bible will support his claim.

DLC

[Zakuska]

Do you obey God's law perfectly all of the time never missing once? If you do the right thing but with the wrong attitude then you condemned. Have you ever lied, stole, not loved God with all of your heart?

James 2:10 says that if you obey the Law but faith just once you failed completely.

Sure if we obey the Law perfectly we can just y it but please continue reading the rest of the thought down through Romans 5 to find out if man is capable of completely obeying the Law. Don't forget Romans 3:23 24.Her let me help. Rom 3:23-24

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

KJV

Notice God justifies us by his grace (unmerited favor, but you believe in merited grace)in Christ Jesus.

DLC

That doesn't excuse us from trying.

Heb 5

9 And being made aperfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Can you have Salvation without obeying Jesus?

[Vance]

Both yes and no.

Which is it?

Anyone can do what Jesus says without having faith in Him but it does not coundt.

We are talking about those who "claim" to believe.

We are saved by faith alone but that faith that alone saves us is not alone.

So what happened to Grace? Is it not involved? If it is, then we are not saved by faith "alone".

It is accompanied by good work or at least should be. Titus 3:8

Talking out of both sides of your mouth here.

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

KJV

"profitable unto men" is correct. It is profitable because it leads to salvation

Now will you answer my question.

Honestly have you done all that you can do to merit being saved by grace? Be honests if you say yes how do you know that you have done all that you can do?

DLC

Let me quote our HIGHLY esteemed friend Lightbearer.

I am going to respond with exclusively LDS scriptures. Mostly to show you what LDS really believe on this issue, not what you claim we believe. Here goes:

Quote

(2 Nephi 10:23-25) "Therefore, cheer up your hearts, and remember that ye are free to act for yourselves?to choose the way of everlasting death or the way of eternal life. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved. Wherefore, may God raise you from death by the power of the resurrection, and also from everlasting death by the power of the atonement, that ye may be received into the eternal kingdom of God, that ye may praise him through grace divine. Amen."

From this you can see that we are not "saved by works" but by the power of the atonement. The catch here is how are we reconciled to God? What does that mean? Does it take any action on our part? In other words is grace a "free ride" or must we do anything to make claim upon that grace?

Quote

(Helaman 5:9-12) "O remember, remember, my sons, the words which king Benjamin spake unto his people; yea, remember that there is no other way nor means whereby man can be saved, only through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, who shall come; yea, remember that he cometh to redeem the world. And remember also the words which Amulek spake unto Zeezrom, in the city of Ammonihah; for he said unto him that the Lord surely should come to redeem his people, but that he should not come to redeem them in their sins, but to redeem them from their sins. And he hath power given unto him from the Father to redeem them from their sins because of repentance; therefore he hath sent his angels to declare the tidings of the conditions of repentance, which bringeth unto the power of the Redeemer, unto the salvation of their souls. And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall."

Does not sound like we believe that through our works we are saved, but the blood of Jesus Christ. But we must have faith in Him enough to bring forth fruit meet for repentance. Unless we become changed by our faith in Christ, our faith is vain.

Quote

(2 Nephi 31:4-21) "Wherefore, I would that ye should remember that I have spoken unto you concerning that prophet which the Lord showed unto me, that should baptize the Lamb of God, which should take away the sins of the world. And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water! And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water? Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments. Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove. And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he having set the example before them. And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father? And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son. And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism?yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel. But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me. And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved. And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved. Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost. And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive. And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save. Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life. And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen."

This is the doctrine of Christ as believed by LDS, we are not saved by our works, but we cannot be saved "in our sins" therefore we must repent and follow the Son of God with full purpose of heart or we cannot be saved in His kingdom. One may question if we think we must keep the commandments that this somehow "buys" or "earns" our salvation, but the following dispels this idea:

Quote

(Mosiah 2:20-25) "I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another? I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another?I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants. And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you. And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him. And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast? And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you."

So you see that keeping the commandments does not earn us a place in the kingdom. But consider why our keeping the commandments and repenting from sin is necessary:

Quote

(Mosiah 5:4-15) "And it is the faith which we have had on the things which our king has spoken unto us that has brought us to this great knowledge, whereby we do rejoice with such exceedingly great joy. And we are willing to enter into a covenant with our God to do his will, and to be obedient to his commandments in all things that he shall command us, all the remainder of our days, that we may not bring upon ourselves a never-ending torment, as has been spoken by the angel, that we may not drink out of the cup of the wrath of God. And now, these are the words which king Benjamin desired of them; and therefore he said unto them: Ye have spoken the words that I desired; and the covenant which ye have made is a righteous covenant. And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters. And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives. And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ. And now it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall not take upon him the name of Christ must be called by some other name; therefore, he findeth himself on the left hand of God. And I would that ye should remember also, that this is the name that I said I should give unto you that never should be blotted out, except it be through transgression; therefore, take heed that ye do not transgress, that the name be not blotted out of your hearts. I say unto you, I would that ye should remember to retain the name written always in your hearts, that ye are not found on the left hand of God, but that ye hear and know the voice by which ye shall be called, and also, the name by which he shall call you. For how knoweth a man the master whom he has not served, and who is a stranger unto him, and is far from the thoughts and intents of his heart? And again, doth a man take an *** which belongeth to his neighbor, and keep him? I say unto you, Nay; he will not even suffer that he shall feed among his flocks, but will drive him away, and cast him out. I say unto you, that even so shall it be among you if ye know not the name by which ye are called. Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen."

Our following the Lord is essential to our retaining the name of Christ in our hearts. Again the following of Christ is the evidence of our faith in Him:

Quote

(Moroni 10:32-33) "Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot."

This coming unto Christ is a process, that is why after baptism we press forward on that strait and narrow path that leads to eternal life. We partake of the Sacrament each week to bring us closer to Christ, we renew the covenant made at baptism:

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(D&C 20:77) "O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen."

As we strive to keep this covenant, as we repent where we fall short and rely upon the atoning grace of our Lord Jesus Christ then we will attain to the "perfection of the Saints" until we all come into the unity of the faith. Simply put:

Quote

(D&C 14:7) "And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God."

So eternal life is a gift, and keeping the commandments and enduring in faith to the end is how we attain that gift. In case there is any doubt of where Christ is in our doctrine I submit:

Quote

(D&C 45:3-8 ) "Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him? Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified; Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life. Hearken, O ye people of my church, and ye elders listen together, and hear my voice while it is called today, and harden not your hearts; For verily I say unto you that I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the light and the life of the world?a light that shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not. I came unto mine own, and mine own received me not; but unto as many as received me gave I power to do many miracles, and to become the sons of God; and even unto them that believed on my name gave I power to obtain eternal life."

All that we have in the Church, the priesthood authority, the ordinances, the covenants, the commandments, the prophets and apostles, the gifts of the spirit, and eternal life itself is given to us by the grace of God, without our savior Jesus Christ all this would be in vain. But it takes a living faith and true repentance meaning forsaking our sins coming to God with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and a following of the Son of God in all things and an enduring in faith to the end, that is how we obtain eternal life.

=====

AND I will add

[Doctor Steuss]

I answered your question now please do the same for mine.

Vance,

I do find any where in the verse where it says that if a person is NOT baptized he is not saved. Here is the verse Mark 16:16

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.KJV

I find that if a person does not believe he is damned. Mark does not say that if he is not baptized he is damned does he? Let's be specific. If Mark is saying that if a person is not batized he is damned other verses in the Bible will support his claim.

DLC

Hi DLClark/ Lewis Chafer/producer of G-d

[Tanyan]

I answered your question now please do the same for mine.

Vance,

I do find any where in the verse where it says that if a person is NOT baptized he is not saved. Here is the verse Mark 16:16

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.KJV

I find that if a person does not believe he is damned. Mark does not say that if he is not baptized he is damned does he? Let's be specific. If Mark is saying that if a person is not batized he is damned other verses in the Bible will support his claim.

DLC

It's pretty simple actually DC even according to my 11-12 yr old's I taught in our church youth Primary years ago - if you believe you will take action and be Baptized to access Jeus Christs Atonement sacrifice and be on the Road to Salvation, but if you believe not your not going to be baptized and fully access Jesus Christs Atonement Sacrifice and not fully be on the road to salvation.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Vance]

I answered your question now please do the same for mine.

Vance,

I do find any where in the verse where it says that if a person is NOT baptized he is not saved. Here is the verse Mark 16:16

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.KJV

I find that if a person does not believe he is damned. Mark does not say that if he is not baptized he is damned does he? Let's be specific. If Mark is saying that if a person is not batized he is damned other verses in the Bible will support his claim.

DLC

STILL waiting for a reference that plainly and clearly says that we don't need to be Baptized.

So then, we know that those "that believeth not shall be damned"

AND, we know that those "believeth and [are] baptized shall be saved"

AND, we know that "even baptism doth also now save us"

These are the teachings of the Bible.

So lets review.

1) No where does the Bible tell us that Baptism not required for salvation.

2) Jesus said "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

3) Jesus said "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved".

4) Peter said "even baptism doth also now save us".

AAAANNNNNDDDDD

You have zip, zero, nada!

[Tanyan]

Does not DL Believe that to Believe or to have Faith is a mental/physical action work we do to access/activate Jesus Christs Atoning Sacrifice for us so as to be cleansed from sin ?.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

That doesn't excuse us from trying.

Heb 5

9 And being made aperfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Can you have Salvation without obeying Jesus?

Nope, the parable of the sheep and the goats plainly demonstrates this. DLClark has failed to give a rebuttle to it.

[DLClark]

STILL waiting for a reference that plainly and clearly says that we don't need to be Baptized.

So then, we know that those "that believeth not shall be damned"

AND, we know that those "believeth and [are] baptized shall be saved"

AND, we know that "even baptism doth also now save us"

These are the teachings of the Bible.

So lets review.

1) No where does the Bible tell us that Baptism not required for salvation.

2) Jesus said "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

3) Jesus said "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved".

4) Peter said "even baptism doth also now save us".

AAAANNNNNDDDDD

You have zip, zero, nada!

I gave you the information yu asked for. Go back and read what I sent. The passage in John 3:5 is not a refernce to water baptism.

Now for John 3:5. Here is an answer to why this passage in John is not talking about water bpatism

John 3:5

[DLClark]

STILL waiting for a reference that plainly and clearly says that we don't need to be Baptized.

So then, we know that those "that believeth not shall be damned"

AND, we know that those "believeth and [are] baptized shall be saved"

AND, we know that "even baptism doth also now save us"

These are the teachings of the Bible.

So lets review.

1) No where does the Bible tell us that Baptism not required for salvation.

2) Jesus said "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

3) Jesus said "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved".

4) Peter said "even baptism doth also now save us".

AAAANNNNNDDDDD

You have zip, zero, nada!

John 3:15-18, 36; Acts 16:31; Eph 2:8-9; Titus 3:5, please answer this for me if you can. In the verses provided please tell me what they says about how we are saved and how we are condemned.

Q. Can you provide for me just one verse that says that if a person is NOT baptized he is not saved?[/color] Mark 16:16 does not say that if a person is not baptizd he is not saved. If I am wrong with this verse in Mark 16:16 and it does say that if we are not baptized we are judged show me from the verse where is am wrong.

DLC

[Tanyan]

Lets start with this - http://www.angelfire.com/az2/biblesonnyb/Tracts/MustIbebaptized.htm

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Zakuska]

My friend, based on these many passages, if God has not cleansed you on the inside, then you will not enter the kingdom. You must be born again! Water baptism is not the answer. You need to be cleansed before you ever get baptized in water. You need to have your heart purified by faith (Acts 15:9).

DLC

Seems to me it doesn't matter the order in which it comes.

1. Heb. 10: 22 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

We need to be cleasned both inside AND out.

[Tanyan]

A true spiritual concept Zak !.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Vance]

I gave you the information yu asked for. Go back and read what I sent. The passage in John 3:5 is not a refernce to water baptism.

Now for John 3:5. Here is an answer to why this passage in John is not talking about water bpatism

John 3:5

<SNIP>

My friend, based on these many passages, if God has not cleansed you on the inside, then you will not enter the kingdom. You must be born again! Water baptism is not the answer. You need to be cleansed before you ever get baptized in water. You need to have your heart purified by faith (Acts 15:9).

DLC

More cut and paste Plagiarism from DLClark!!!!

Now let's see, did he copy it from here?

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/salvatio/bapsav05.htm

Yup! He did. And he didn't give attribution either. But then again He has a habit of that.

[Nemesis]

I gave you the information yu asked for. Go back and read what I sent. The passage in John 3:5 is not a refernce to water baptism.

Now for John 3:5. Here is an answer to why this passage in John is not talking about water bpatism

John 3:5

DLClark you are plagiarizing other peoples work sans attribution. You were warned once. This time you are suspended for a week, if you do it again you will be banned.

Nemesis