The Problem of Salvation

[DLClark]

Jesus was a man who became a god, are you saying that He "was a man who needed saving himself"?

So? The intelligence from which you were made never had a beginning or an end either. The spirit matter from which your spirit was made never had a beginning or an end either. The physical matter from which your body was made never had a beginning or an end either. So what is your point?

True, but He didn't create it from nothing.

Do you even know how to read English? This verse is very clealy talking about the Father when it is refering to the "true God".

20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Jesus Christ is clearly the Son of Him that is the true God.

He is!!!!

Jesus clearly and plainly taught otherwise.

Not true! Every one is SAVED from death!!!

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16

[DLClark]

What DLClark?

No confession of guilt?

No apology?

I am not plagerizing. These are articles that I have written and I do not need to cite them if I am the author.

DLC

[DLClark]

It is easier than this. Did no one see Christ when he was here?

Answer to your question John 1:18.

DLC

[Vance]

I am not plagerizing. These are articles that I have written and I do not need to cite them if I am the author.

DLC

So your real name is J. Hampton Keathley III and not DLClark?

No you really are a plagiarist and have been caught red handed. Your credibility is ZERO with me. Any one who comes here and with willful ignorance, misrepresents our beliefs and teachings, and plagiarizes his rebuttals will find no respect from me.

And your continual denial in the face of irrefutable proof doesn't increase your credibility either.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Answer to your question John 1:18.

DLC

That is your rebuttal? Nice non answer. Explain to me how people saw Jesus who is "God" to you yet "no man hath seen God".

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So your real name is J. Hampton Keathley III and not DLClark?

No you really are a plagiarist and have been caught red handed. Your credibility is ZERO with me. Any one who comes here and with willful ignorance, misrepresents our beliefs and teachings, and plagiarizes his rebuttals will find no respect from me.

And your continual denial in the face of irrefutable proof doesn't increase your credibility either.

Lol, his name is Darrel L Clark.

[Flyonthewall]

Answer to your question John 1:18.

DLC

Yet Jesus states:

John 14: 7, 9

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

[Zakuska]

My answer to your question is found in the pages of the Bible. Read eph 2:8-10 tofind the answer. People will try anything imaginable to gain favor with God. Most turn to religion, but religion apart from Christ is merely a Satanic counterfeit of the truth.

Romans 2

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

So then how are all these gentile, justified before God, Law of Moses abiders who have never heard of Jesus saved then?

[DLClark]

That is your rebuttal? Nice non answer. Explain to me how people saw Jesus who is "God" to you yet "no man hath seen God".

John 14:8-9

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

KJV

John 1:18

8 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

KJV

Col 1:14-16

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

KJV

Phil 2:5-10

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

KJV

DLC

[Vance]

John 14:8-9

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

KJV

John 1:18

8 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

KJV

Col 1:14-16

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

KJV

Phil 2:5-10

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

KJV

DLC

Another NON-ANSWER!!!!!!!!!!!!

from the PLAGIARIST DLClark

[DLClark]

Romans 2

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

So then how are all these gentile, justified before God, Law of Moses abiders who have never heard of Jesus saved then?

If you think that obedience to Law justfies us or is part of our salvation, read theses warining signs.

James 2:10

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

KJV

Gal 3:10-11

10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM." 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Obedience to the law justifies a person. But you must obey the Law perfectly never missing obedience once or you are cursed. The Law is God's perfect standard for righteousness and those who want to keep it must keep it perfectly.

Sadly, it is impossible to keep the law perfectly that is why those who wish to do so are cursed. Here is the end result of trying to keep the Mosaic Law.

Rom 3:19-20

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

This is why Jesus came to earth. He came in oder to keep the Law for which we could never keep. Now when we come to faith in Christ the Law ends and the New Covenant, Grace as a rule to live under comes into play.

The Law could make us righteous if we perfectly keep it but no person can keep the requirements of the law perfectly in order to become righteous. That is why all who try to keep the Mosaic Law are cursed. So Christ kept the Law for us. He kept the Mosaic Law perfectly in our place because we could not keep it. By faith then in Christ we recieve His righteousness and become exceptable to God through Christ. This is why works do not save. Works are evidence of our salvation not the means to being saved.

2 Cor 5:21

21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Rom 10:4

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

KJV

DLC

[Zakuska]

If you think that obedience to Law justfies us or is part of our salvation, read theses warining signs.

So you disagree with Pauls parenthetical then?

[DLClark]

So you disagree with Pauls parenthetical then?

You did not read what I wrote to you. Paul said we have to obey the Law but not person can. If you must obey the Law to be saved you must fo so perfectly never missing once even with attitude. No one can meat this standard. Jesus met it for us because are unable to perfectly met this high standard. That is Paul Said, not I said Paul says this not me.

Romans 2

James 2:10

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

KJV

Gal 3:10-11

10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM." 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

NASU

DLC

Obedience to the law justifies a person. But you must obey the Law perfectly never missing obedience just once or you are cursed. The Law is God's perfect satandard for righteousness and those who want to keep it must keep it perfectly.

Sadly it is impossible to keep the law perfectly that is why those who wish to do so are curded. Here is the end result.

Rom 3:19-20

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

This is why Jesus came to earth. He came in oder to keep the Law for which we could never do. Now when we come to faith in christ the Law ends and the New covenant comes into play, the Law of Christ.

The Law could make us righteous but no person can keep the requirements of the law perfectly in order o be righteous. that is why all who try to keep the are cursed. So Christ did that for us. He kept the Law perfectly in our place because we could not keep it. By faith then in Christ we recieve His righteousness and become exceptable to God through Christ. This is why works do not save. Works are evidence of our salvation not the means to being saved.

2 Cor 5:21

21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Rom 10:4

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

KJV

DLC

[DLClark]

Yet Jesus states:

Now is Jesus contradicting Himself? How can John state that no man has seen God, then have Jesus state they have?

Answer. Jesus is the visible representation of the invisible God.

Jesus manifests the invisible God to us. That is the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from the Bible God's infallible Word.

DLC

[Zakuska]

You did not read what I wrote to you. Paul said we have to obey the Law but not person can. If you must obey the Law to be saved you must fo so perfectly never missing once even with attitude. No one can meat this standard. Jesus met it for us because are unable to perfectly met this high standard. That is Paul Said, not I said Paul says this not me.

You didn't listen to what Paul actually said...

These gentiles have never heard the name Jesus Christ... yet by nature they keep the law and are Justified before God.

[Vance]

Answer. Jesus is the visible representation of the invisible God.

If Jesus is only the "visible representation" does that mean that Jesus isn't God?

Jesus manifests the invisible God to us. That is the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from the Bible God's infallible Word.

If Jesus only "manifests" does that mean that Jesus isn't God?

Why are you denying the divinity of Jesus?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

John 14:8-9

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

KJV

John 1:18

8 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

KJV

Col 1:14-16

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

KJV

Phil 2:5-10

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

KJV

DLC

That fact is that Jesus is God and people saw him. That means that clearly John missed the memo. That memo is that man has seen God. This post is evidence that you cannot rebut this point. I contend that the verse you quote is a not an accurate portrale of what John originally said. Which was , that no man hath seen God but that he declare the Son. For the Son is in the bosom of the Father. As it stands the bible currently contrdicts itself.

[Zakuska]

That fact is that Jesus is God and people saw him. That means that clearly John missed the memo. That memo is that man has seen God. This post is evidence that you cannot rebut this point. I contend that the verse you quote is a not an accurate portrale of what John originally said. Which was , that no man hath seen God but that he declare the Son. For the Son is in the bosom of the Father. As it stands the bible currently contrdicts itself.

Understatement of the year.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

DLClark,

Is Jesus God? Yes or no?

Did men see Jesus? Yes or no?

If Jesus is God then people have seen God, and that flies in the face that "no man hath seen God". If you choose to respond I am not interested in bible verses as that does not address th issue. Explain to me how you continue ot hold the beleif that "no man hath seen God" yet lots of people saw Jesus.

[DLClark]

You didn't listen to what Paul actually said...

These gentiles have never heard the name Jesus Christ... yet by nature they keep the law and are Justified before God.

Wrong, Paul said they did not keep the Law perfectly. You can obey the Law some of the time but you can not obey the Law all of the time. That is why every person is there ever was except Christ is a sinner. The moral Gentile sure obeyed the Law but they did not know they were obeying it. But on the other hand he was a sinner sa well for at times he broke the Law as mentioned below in the rest of the passage. If you must keep the Law to be saved you condemn yourself because every person is a sinner.

The law can save us but we must keep it perfectly all of the time in oder to be saved by it, James 2:10. No one but Christ ever obeyed the Law perfectly.

Rom 2:12

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

KJV

Rom 3:9

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

KJV

Rom 3:10-23

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God (Both Jew and Gentile are guilty before God).[/color]

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;KJV

This is the reason why no person can keep the Law and be saved. We must keep it perfectly because the standard for heaven is the glorly of God. No one can be as glorious as God is that is why not one by doing good works can ever hope to make themselves as glorious as God.

Rom 3:10-2310 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

KJV

Rom 3:24-30

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

KJV

Faith alone in the finished work of Christ on the cross saves us. He gives us God's glory when we place our faith in Him as our personal Savior, 2 Cor. 5:21.

If you feel you must keep the Law to be saved then you curse yourself because you must keep the Law perfectly in order to meet its exacting standard, the glory of God. James 2:10.

Good luck trying to obey it perfectly.

Q. Have you ever lied?

Q. Have you ever failed to love God with ALL of your heart?

Q. Have you ever been angry at another person?

Q. Have you ever lusted after another women or man.

Q. Have you had sex before marriage?

Q. Have you ever disobeyed your parents?

If you answer that you never have done theses things then you lie, 1 John 1:10.

If you have ever done any of these things then you have failed and are a sinner and excluded from heaven even general salvation. Romans 6:23. Death means separation from God.

So what help is there for us all. By faith alone in Christ apart from works we can have our sin problem fixed and be saved, Eph 2:8-9. Then get this, after salvation God wants us to put our salvaion in procatice. this is where good works come into play. We are saved unto good works, Eph 2:10.

Good works never saved because no work we can do can ever fix our sin problem. Only faith in Christ can do that, 2 Cor. 5:21.

DLC

[Zakuska]

And what of those who have never heard the name Jesus Christ? Are they all lost?

[DLClark]

DLClark,

Is Jesus God? Yes or no?

Did men see Jesus? Yes or no?

If Jesus is God then people have seen God, and that flies in the face that "no man hath seen God". If you choose to respond I am not interested in bible verses as that does not address th issue. Explain to me how you continue ot hold the beleif that "no man hath seen God" yet lots of people saw Jesus.

Jesus is perfect God and perfect man all at the same time. His titles, Son of God, refers to His diety and His title, Son of Man, refers to His perfect humanity. Jesus is the perfect God/Man. That is why we can see Jesus and when we see Jesus we see God.

God is a Spirit the Bible says. No person can see a spirit. We can only see the perfect God/Man Jesus Christ though. JS never saw God the Father for God the Father is a Spirit.

The problem with some religions is that they want everything to fit into a nice understandable box. Somethings we just take by faith and trust the written Word of God, The Bible. We do not have to understand the hypostatic union for it to be true. It is true because it is declared in the Bible to be so even if we do not understand it fully. We are not God and are not expected to fully understand everything. If we did then we would be God.

DLC

[Zakuska]

Jesus is perfect God and perfect man all at the same time. His titles, Son of God, refers to His diety and His title, Son of Man, refers to His perfect humanity. Jesus is the perfect God/Man. That is why we can see Jesus and when we see Jesus we see God.

God is a Spirit the Bible says. No person can see a spirit. We can only see the perfect God/Man Jesus Christ though. JS never saw God the Father for God the Father is a Spirit.

You need to go study the greek of that verse. The "a" was added in the English. It does not appear in the original Greek. John says God is Spirit. he also says God is love, and God is a flaming Fire. Are these declarations of his species? No.

PS. Christ is also called a "Spirit" yet People saw him.

1 Cor. 15: 45

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

2 Cor. 3: 17

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty

So are all those who are Born of God.

John 3

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

So are you really suggesting that all these Born Again people running around are actually invisible men/women?

PS. John the Baptist saw the Holy Ghost descend on Jesus at his Baptism. Something tells me you need to rethink your understanding, or as the case stands... misunderstanding.

I suppose also you feel these are Biblical lies...

Job 19: 26

26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Matt. 5: 8

8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Since God is a Spirit and a Spirit can't be seen.

[Vance]

Blah, blah, blah . . .

So what help is there for us all.

The gospel of Jesus Christ which includes;

1) Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ,

2) Repentance from dead works and sin,

3) Baptism for the remission of sins,

4) the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands by those in authority,

5) Endurance to the end.

By faith alone in Christ apart from works we can have our sin problem fixed and be saved, Eph 2:8-9.

True faith is NEVER alone. Faith without works is DEAD!

Then get this, after salvation God wants us to put our salvaion in procatice.

Salvation comes AFTER death, if we wait until after death to do our "good works" it will be to late. This life it the time to prepare to meet God.

this is where good works come into play. We are saved unto good works, Eph 2:10.

Salvation comes AFTER death, if we wait until after death to do our "good works" it will be to late. This life it the time to prepare to meet God.

Good works never saved because no work we can do can ever fix our sin problem. Only faith in Christ can do that, 2 Cor. 5:21.

Through the Atonement of Christ the work of Repentance fixes our "sin problem".

Repentance brings forgiveness of sins.

Acts 3:19

[William the Conqueror]

That fact is that Jesus is God and people saw him. That means that clearly John missed the memo. That memo is that man has seen God. This post is evidence that you cannot rebut this point. I contend that the verse you quote is a not an accurate portrale of what John originally said. Which was , that no man hath seen God but that he declare the Son. For the Son is in the bosom of the Father. As it stands the bible currently contrdicts itself.

I suppose Joseph Smith took care of this alleged contradiction in his translation.