The Problem of Salvation

[Lightbearer]

Mormonism teaches that a person is saved by grace after doing all that he can do. Have you done all that you can do in order to be saved by grace?

Book of Mormon says,

[Flyonthewall]

What works then are needed for salvation, in your opinion, if works are part of your salvation?

To start with: Faith, Repentance, Baptism, receive the Holy Ghost. This gets us on the right path, in a "saved" state so to speak. After that, obedience to the commandments, and following the teachings of Christ. If we sin, repent. Continually work towards being Christ-like.

How will you know that you have done your works in the right manner or with the right attitude to merit being saved by grace?

Do we do the things we do to get gain? or to be "seen of men"? As long as we follow the teachinigs of Christ in an effort to become more like Him, we have done our works in the right manner and attitude.

You seem to be saying it is an all or nothing prospect. Either we are perfectly flawless in our obedience to the commandments, or we recognize that we cannot be perfectly flawless in obeying the commandments so we don't need to worry about them at all.

[Flyonthewall]

Mormonism teaches that a person is saved by grace after doing all that he can do. Have you done all that you can do in order to be saved by grace?

Book of Mormon says,

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Are you then professing a "do-nothing" salvation? Which means that as long as I beleive, I do not need to do anything whether by commission or omission. I do not need to repent. I do not need to love my neighbor. I do not need to feed the hungry, clothe the naked or visit the sick. And on the flip side, if I don't need to do good things, then I can do bad things and it won't matter. Is this truely the picture you are trying to paint?

What a great way to say it. This is what it feels like people that keep repeating that you don't need works to be saved. I will have to remember this post.

[DLClark]

Let me ask you

"What type of faith is needed for salvation, in your opinion, if faith is part of your salvation?

How will you know that you have done your faith in the right manner or with the right attitude to merit being saved by grace? "

You know that there are different type of faith and not all is salvic. Only that faith that trust in Jesus Christ alone as ones personal Savior saves. All other is types of faith will not save.

Acts 13:31 Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be save ( Not may be saved but will be saved.)

DLC

[DLClark]

Are you then professing a "do-nothing" salvation? Which means that as long as I beleive, I do not need to do anything whether by commission or omission. I do not need to repent. I do not need to love my neighbor. I do not need to feed the hungry, clothe the naked or visit the sick. And on the flip side, if I don't need to do good things, then I can do bad things and it won't matter. Is this truely the picture you are trying to paint?

Works are the fruit of saving faith and not the means to saving faith. We are saved unto good works.

Read this and find out where good works come into play.

Titus 3:8

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

KJV

Eph 2:8-10

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

KJV

We must be in Christ first by faith alone in Christ alone before we can put our faith into practice.

Works do not save us. Only faith in Christ alone does. We are saved UNTO good works.

DLC

[DLClark]

To start with: Faith, Repentance, Baptism, receive the Holy Ghost. This gets us on the right path, in a "saved" state so to speak. After that, obedience to the commandments, and following the teachings of Christ. If we sin, repent. Continually work towards being Christ-like.

Do we do the things we do to get gain? or to be "seen of men"? As long as we follow the teachinigs of Christ in an effort to become more like Him, we have done our works in the right manner and attitude.

You seem to be saying it is an all or nothing prospect. Either we are perfectly flawless in our obedience to the commandments, or we recognize that we cannot be perfectly flawless in obeying the commandments so we don't need to worry about them at all.

[DLClark]

I think I can safely say that this very question is close to the same accusation Lucifer made in the Grand Council. The very reason he drew away one third of the spirits in Heaven and they were cast down. The reason for the War in heaven. It was after all over agency wasn't it? That is exactly what you are disputing. You are saying that we, children of God cannot live the Lord's commandments. That we are incapable of doing it. You deny that this earth is a probationary period in which we learn to develop our faith, and that through our faith in the atoning blood of Jesus Christ that we can overcome the world. You think that God can save us IN OUR SINS. Without repentance, without agency, without being judged according to our works. You try to pretend that we LDS think that we can somehow keep all the commandments without faith in Christ, that is not what that scripture is saying and you know it. King Benjamin put it rather nicely:Now does this sound like we are buying our salvation? Yet our keeping the commandments (which is all that we can do) is required of us. In fact our faith increases as we keep His commandments, and thus we go on from grace to grace until we work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Listen to more of King Benjamin:God will not be mocked, while avoiding sin in and of itself does not "save" us, if we do not exercise faith in the Lord by following Him then we will become a sinner and will be just as damned as any heathen you seem to enjoy cursing. Now as for your mocking question, I would ask you, ARE YOU BORN AGAIN? Are YOU SAVED? Do you keep all the commandments of God? Do you still sin? IF SO THEN YOU ARE NOT BORN AGAIN! See the following:So do you sin? Or is perhaps salvation and being born of God are a gradual process through which we must pass to attain eternal life?

If we are in a state of grace, are we always in that state? Or can we fall? Consider the following:

Now I suppose you will deny that Peter was talking to the members of the Church, but no matter, we have His witness if we do not continue in our faith and live righteous lives then we are no better, in fact worse than sinners who know not God.

The Bible no where teaches sinless perfection, 1 John 1:8-10. If we must keep God's commandments to be saved then we are in big trouble. Here is why.

James 2:10

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

KJV

Gal 3:10

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

KJV

If obedience to the laws or commands of God are needed for salvation then we must obey all of God's laws all of the time never missing obedience to them just once.

Matt 5:48

48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

The reason why we must keep His commands perfectly never missing obedience to them just once is the standard that God has for us to reach in order to go to heaven to be with Him in the third heaven. WE MUST BE PERFECT>

Or to state it another way we must become as glorious as He is in order to obtain individual salvation.

Rom 3:23

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

KJV

Have you met God's standard of perfection so that you can obtain individual salvation?

DLC

[Flyonthewall]

Works are the fruit of saving faith and not the means to saving faith. We are saved unto good works.

Read this and find out where good works come into play.

Titus 3:8

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

KJV

Eph 2:8-10

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

KJV

We must be in Christ first by faith alone in Christ alone before we can put our faith into practice.

Works do not save us. Only faith in Christ alone does. We are saved UNTO good works.

DLC

Again, I repeat, you profess a "do-nothing" salvation. To be saved, by your description, all one needs is belief. There need not be any repentance, because that is a work, that is something the individual must do. God will not repent for you.

You say good works are a fruit of salvation, well...are they required to be there? they weren't required to be saved, so why would the be required afterwards? And then we are right back to no good works need be done and no bad works need be avoided.

[Flyonthewall]

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You know that there are different type of faith and not all is salvic. Only that faith that trust in Jesus Christ alone as ones personal Savior saves. All other is types of faith will not save.

Acts 13:31 Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be save ( Not may be saved but will be saved.)

DLC

So how do you know that you have trusted enough?

I love red herrings, they can be useful.

[DLClark]

Again, I repeat, you profess a "do-nothing" salvation. To be saved, by your description, all one needs is belief. There need not be any repentance, because that is a work, that is something the individual must do. God will not repent for you.

You say good works are a fruit of salvation, well...are they required to be there? they weren't required to be saved, so why would the be required afterwards? And then we are right back to no good works need be done and no bad works need be avoided.

God does the saving of us and not we by our good works. How can you a sinner be made right in the face of a Holy God. We have all missed the requirements for heaven. Romans 3:23. The standard for heaven is found in the above verse. We have all come short of the glory of God. Are a righteous as God is? Can you by your works atone for your sin problem? Have you done all that you can do to merit being saved by grace? What about your attitude that has not been good at times? What about those days when you do not do your best? What your inward attitude of rebellion at time not wanting to do what you are told to do? Do you love the Lord God with all of your heart all of the time without ever missing a day at it?

What about the verse that says that God made us alive when we were dead in our sins, Eph 2: 1-5. That the wages of sin is death? Can you then make yourself alive spiritual when you are dead spiritually. Can a corps come to life by its own effort

Salvation is not a work of man for God but it is a work of God for man John 6:29.

Have you obeyed all of God's requirements all the time in oder to be saved by grace? What about this passage

Luke 18:18-27

A ruler questioned Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 19 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 20 "You know the commandments, 'DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.'" 21 And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth." 22 When Jesus heard this, He said to him, "One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 23 But when he had heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich. 24 And Jesus looked at him and said, " How hard it is for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God! 25 "For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 26 They who heard it said, "Then who can be saved?" 27 But He said, " The things that are impossible with people are possible with God."

The rich young ruler had done everything he could to earn salvation but he lacked doing one thing. He was to sell all he had and give it to the poor. Since you think works are needed for salvation then have done what Jesus asked this rich person to do? Have you sold all of your good and given them to the poor? Why do we miss this requirement and add others? Jesus did say that if we do what He says here we will go to heaven to be with God The point of the verse is found in verse 26-27. Of course you have not sold all of your goods. No one has ever done that. The point is that it is impossible to save ourselves with all of our good works. It is impossible with man to save himself through self effort. It is possible though for God to save us through our faith in Him. Jesus said, " The things that are impossible with people are possible with God."

Meaning, God does the saving because it is possible for Him to save us. It is impossible for man to work His way to heaven though. The sin issue always gets in the way. We must be perfect as god in order to get into heaven. Are you that perfect to think you can merit being saved by grace ? NO one is that perfect that is why salvation is all of God and none of us. Salvation is a gift to sinful man from a loving God Eph 2:8-9. All He asked us to do is to believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved Acts 16:31; John 3:15-18. Would you today accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior by faith alone in christ alone? Stop all of your self effort hoping to make yourself acceptable to God. Trust in the oOne who has done it all for you.

Eph 2:1-10

2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened (made alive)us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

KJV

Whosoever believes in Him (Jesus Christ) Shall not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16.

Acts 16:31

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved,KJV

DLC

[Flyonthewall]

God does the saving of us and not we by our good works. How can you a sinner be made right in the face of a Holy God. We have all missed the requirements for heaven. Romans 3:23. The standard for heaven is found in the above verse. We have all come short of the glory of God. Are a righteous as God is? Can you by your works atone for your sin problem? Have you done all that you can do to merit being saved by grace? What about your attitude that has not been good at times? What about those days when you do not do your best? What your inward attitude of rebellion at time not wanting to do what you are told to do? Do you love the Lord God with all of your heart all of the time without ever missing a day at it?

What about the verse that says that God made us alive when we were dead in our sins, Eph 2: 1-5. That the wages of sin is death? Can you then make yourself alive spiritual when you are dead spiritually. Can a corps come to life by its own effort

Salvation is not a work of man for God but it is a work of God for man John 6:29.

Are you not listening? NO ONE IS SAYING THAT WORKS SAVE...but they must be present. God is the one that saves, but He has given us commandments to obey, and teachings to follow.

Have you obeyed all of God's requirements all the time in oder to be saved by grace? What about this passage

Luke 18:18-27

A ruler questioned Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 19 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 20 "You know the commandments, 'DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.'" 21 And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth." 22 When Jesus heard this, He said to him, "One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 23 But when he had heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich. 24 And Jesus looked at him and said, " How hard it is for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God! 25 "For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 26 They who heard it said, "Then who can be saved?" 27 But He said, " The things that are impossible with people are possible with God."

The rich young ruler had done everything he could to earn salvation but he lacked doing one thing. He was to sell all he had and give it to the poor. Since you think works are needed for salvation then have done what Jesus asked this rich person to do? Have you sold all of your good and given them to the poor? Why do we miss this requirement and add others?

Tell me, what was the first thing Jesus asked the young man? Do you know the commandments and obey them?

Jesus did say that if we do what He says here we will go to heaven to be with God

But you deny this. According to you, salvation is through belief only, not doing what Jesus actually taught. Again, nobody is saying works save or works get us into heaven, but, we must put the effort out to do as Jesus taught.

The point of the verse is found in verse 26-27. Of course you have not sold all of your goods. No one has ever done that.

I have not sold all my possessions, but have covenanted to use my time and talents to help build His church, which I do in the form of tithing and performing my duties within the church and doing my best to live as He has taught.

The point is that it is impossible to save ourselves with all of our good works. It is impossible with man to save himself through self effort.

You have not been listening to anything that has been said. WE DO NOT SAVE OURSELVES! OUR WORKS DO NOT SAVE!

It is possible though for God to save us through our faith in Him. Jesus said, " The things that are impossible with people are possible with God."

Meaning, God does the saving because it is possible for Him to save us. It is impossible for man to work His way to heaven though. The sin issue always gets in the way. We must be perfect as god in order to get into heaven. Are you that perfect to think you can merit being saved by grace ? NO one is that perfect that is why salvation is all of God and none of us. Salvation is a gift to sinful man from a loving God Eph 2:8-9. All He asked us to do is to believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved Acts 16:31; John 3:15-18. Would you today accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior by faith alone in christ alone? Stop all of your self effort hoping to make yourself acceptable to God. Trust in the oOne who has done it all for you.

Here again, you are professing that we do nothing. The devils believe, and they do nothing to make themselves acceptable to God. According to you, they are saved. Now I know you will mention something about "salvic" faith, and "non-salvic" faith, well, how do you know your faith is salvic?

You remind me of a joke about a man in an area that was flooding. He was a "God fearing" man and placed his faith totally on God and prayed that he might be saved from the flood. When the flood was knee deep, a man in a row boat came by and shouted: "Get in, this area is being evacuated!". The man shouted back saying: "God will save me!". When the flood was up to the roof, and the man was on the roof, a motor boat came by and told him to get in. The man shouted back: "God will save me!". Then as the man was treading water a helicopter came by, lowered a ladder and told him to climb up. The man shouted back and said "God will save me!". The man drowned. As the man stood before God, he asked Him: "God, I put all my faith in you that you would save me, but I was not saved...why?" God replied: "I sent you two boats and a helicopter, what more did you want?".

God has extended to us the help we need in the form of commandments and His teachings, you would have us ignore these and let God do it all, as the man in the flood did. Now, if a boat comes by and we get in it, did we save ourselves? If a helicopter comes by and throws us a ladder and we climb up it, did we save ourselves?

[DLClark]

Are you not listening? NO ONE IS SAYING THAT WORKS SAVE...but they must be present. God is the one that saves, but He has given us commandments to obey, and teachings to follow.

Tell me, what was the first thing Jesus asked the young man? Do you know the commandments and obey them?

But you deny this. According to you, salvation is through belief only, not doing what Jesus actually taught. Again, nobody is saying works save or works get us into heaven, but, we must put the effort out to do as Jesus taught.

I have not sold all my possessions, but have covenanted to use my time and talents to help build His church, which I do in the form of tithing and performing my duties within the church and doing my best to live as He has taught.

You have not been listening to anything that has been said. WE DO NOT SAVE OURSELVES! OUR WORKS DO NOT SAVE!

Here again, you are professing that we do nothing. The devils believe, and they do nothing to make themselves acceptable to God. According to you, they are saved. Now I know you will mention something about "salvic" faith, and "non-salvic" faith, well, how do you know your faith is salvic?

You remind me of a joke about a man in an area that was flooding. He was a "God fearing" man and placed his faith totally on God and prayed that he might be saved from the flood. When the flood was knee deep, a man in a row boat came by and shouted: "Get in, this area is being evacuated!". The man shouted back saying: "God will save me!". When the flood was up to the roof, and the man was on the roof, a motor boat came by and told him to get in. The man shouted back: "God will save me!". Then as the man was treading water a helicopter came by, lowered a ladder and told him to climb up. The man shouted back and said "God will save me!". The man drowned. As the man stood before God, he asked Him: "God, I put all my faith in you that you would save me, but I was not saved...why?" God replied: "I sent you two boats and a helicopter, what more did you want?".

God has extended to us the help we need in the form of commandments and His teachings, you would have us ignore these and let God do it all, as the man in the flood did. Now, if a boat comes by and we get in it, did we save ourselves? If a helicopter comes by and throws us a ladder and we climb up it, did we save ourselves?

In Mormonism works are part of your salvaion. The BOM in 2 Nephai says that you are saved by grace only after you done all you can do. Q. Have you done all that you can do to merit being saved by grace? Your prophets say that salvation is based on keeping the commandments of Christ, M.D., p. 670. You teach that grace is merited. the says it unmrited favor god having done it all for us.I am not talking about general salvation but individual salvation. I am talking about the assurance of knowing that when you die that you will be in heaven the third heaven with God. I know you teach that everyone but the very bad will go to the second heaven the Terrestrial heaven. I am talking about knowing that when you die that you can be with God in the Celestrial heaven. This si the hope of the Christ. Salvation is the bible is knowing that when one dies they will be in the third heaven with God. We can not work for this sassurance because it is a gift to us from God recieved by faith alone in christ. Works come after this assurace and are not means to this assurace. Notice carefully what god says to about where works of any kind come into play.

Titus 3:8

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

KJV

Notice that those who have believed (past tense) are to maintain good works. Works always come after salvation. The thief on the cross was saved and Jesus said he would be in the Celestial heaven with that very day. He never did any good works just believed. Works come after salvation and are not part of our salvation. We are saved by grace through faith plus nothing. If we are saved then good works will be the fruit of our salvation and not the means to achieving it.

Q Have you done all that you can do in oder to merit being saved by grace? I am not talking about resurrection or general salvation. Salvation does not mean resurrection. For the Christian it means knowing that your sins are forgiven and have become a part of the Family of God by faith alone in Christ. It is the assurance of being in the Celestial heaven with God. Have you done enough good works to merit this type of salvation since you think works are part of salvation.

DLC

[Flyonthewall]

In Mormonism works are part of your salvaion. The BOM in 2 Nephai says that you are saved by grace only after you done all you can do. Q. Have you done all that you can do to merit being saved by grace?

If you actually understood what is taught in the BOM, you wouldn't be asking this. The BOM teaches that we will NEVER be able to do enough, but that doesn't mean we don't do anything. We are to try the best that we can.

Your prophets say that salvation is based on keeping the commandments of Christ, M.D., p. 670. You teach that grace is merited. the says it unmrited favor god having done it all for us.I am not talking about general salvation but individual salvation. I am talking about the assurance of knowing that when you die that you will be in heaven the third heaven with God.

And if you understand what our prophets have taught, you would not be making this statement. If you are going to use what our prophets say, then use all that they say, not just sound bites pulled out of context.

I know you teach that everyone but the very bad will go to the second heaven the Terrestrial heaven. I am talking about knowing that when you die that you can be with God in the Celestrial heaven. This si the hope of the Christ. Salvation is the bible is knowing that when one dies they will be in the third heaven with God. We can not work for this sassurance because it is a gift to us from God recieved by faith alone in christ. Works come after this assurace and are not means to this assurace. Notice carefully what god says to about where works of any kind come into play.

Our reward is based on what kind of person we are becoming. I say becoming, because we do not stop "becoming" at death.

Titus 3:8

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

KJV

Notice that those who have believed (past tense) are to maintain good works. Works always come after salvation. The thief on the cross was saved and Jesus said he would be in the Celestial heaven with that very day. He never did any good works just believed. Works come after salvation and are not part of our salvation. We are saved by grace through faith plus nothing. If we are saved then good works will be the fruit of our salvation and not the means to achieving it.

If salvation comes without good works, how can one maintain good works without first doing good works. Remember, you state that salvation does not require good works. If good works are not required to get it, then good works are not required to keep it.

We have gone through the thief on the cross. The thief did not gain salvation, but was in the spirit world to be taught the gospel.

Q Have you done all that you can do in oder to merit being saved by grace? I am not talking about resurrection or general salvation. Salvation does not mean resurrection. For the Christian it means knowing that your sins are forgiven and have become a part of the Family of God by faith alone in Christ. It is the assurance of being in the Celestial heaven with God. Have you done enough good works to merit this type of salvation since you think works are part of salvation.

My sins were forgiven at baptism, and when I repent. This is my assurance that I am on the right path. If I were to stop repenting, and stop striving to become Christ-like, or stop trying to follow Christ, then that assurance is not there.

If, after you are saved, can you then stop trying to follow Christ and still expect to be saved? (usuall this is where you make a comment like: "Well then they were never saved to begin with". In that case, where did your assurance go?)

When the boat comes for you, will get in? or will you sit idly by, refusing to do anything at all?

[DLClark]

If you actually understood what is taught in the BOM, you wouldn't be asking this. The BOM teaches that we will NEVER be able to do enough, but that doesn't mean we don't do anything. We are to try the best that we can.

And if you understand what our prophets have taught, you would not be making this statement. If you are going to use what our prophets say, then use all that they say, not just sound bites pulled out of context.

Our reward is based on what kind of person we are becoming. I say becoming, because we do not stop "becoming" at death.

If salvation comes without good works, how can one maintain good works without first doing good works. Remember, you state that salvation does not require good works. If good works are not required to get it, then good works are not required to keep it.

We have gone through the thief on the cross. The thief did not gain salvation, but was in the spirit world to be taught the gospel.

My sins were forgiven at baptism, and when I repent. This is my assurance that I am on the right path. If I were to stop repenting, and stop striving to become Christ-like, or stop trying to follow Christ, then that assurance is not there.

If, after you are saved, can you then stop trying to follow Christ and still expect to be saved? (usuall this is where you make a comment like: "Well then they were never saved to begin with". In that case, where did your assurance go?)

When the boat comes for you, will get in? or will you sit idly by, refusing to do anything at all?

The basis for forgiveness of sins is not water baptism god is the only person who can forgive us ofour sins and the forgiven took place with the shedding of Christ's blod. Sins forgiveness is made available to us through our faith in Christ. By adding water bpatism to faith then salvation becomes a work man does hoping to gain salvation. Anything man does inaddition to faith in Christ becomes a work of righteousness. To be rightous one must have their sins forgiven. If water which man does forgives our sin it then become a work of righteousness. The Thief on the cros was never baptism but his sins were forgiven. Abraham was never baptized and his sins were forgiven for god declared him righteous on the basis of his faith in God. We are saved the very same way. The passages in James declaring Abraham justified by works is not God declaring him justified by faith alone but it is his proof to mankind that what he did in faith was real.

When I lived in Utah I was told that to gain the Celestrial Kingdom I had to believe in Christ, be properly baptized and confirmned by someone holding the appropriate priesthood authority, and be cleansed from my sins by keeping the commandmnets. This sounds like works to me. But then I heard about salvation by faith alone in Christ and doing good works only after I have been saved. The salvation that God brings to us is not based on man doing but on believing what He has already done for us, Eph 2:4-9

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

KJV

Those who accept God's free gift of eternal life are guarenteed a place in the Celestial kingdom with God. Salvation found in the Bible is free for who all would accept what God has done for them by faith alone in Christ.

All one has to do is believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, Acts 16:31. It is just that easy. Man made religion thinks that is not enough but that works must come into play to find full salvation, Rom 11:6

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

KJV

This Idea is not from God but is another gospel that is condemned in God's Word, Galatians 1:6-9. Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us (idndividual salvation)

KJV

Isa 64:6

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; (Trying to earn individual salvation)

KJV

Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves(trying to earn individual salvation): it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

KJV

Unbeliever are not saved with general salvation because they have believed. John 3:16-18

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

KJV

Notice the relationship between belief and unbelief. All who believe are saved (individual salvation)and will never perish. All who do not believe are judged (Loss of any kind of salvation, general or individual). It is just that simple.

Faith is Christ saves us. Unbelief condemns.

The BOM teaches that a person is individually saved by grace after all he has done. Have you done all that you can do in order to merit being individually saved by grace?

DLC

[Flyonthewall]

The basis for forgiveness of sins is not water baptism god is the only person who can forgive us ofour sins and the forgiven took place with the shedding of Christ's blod. Sins forgiveness is made available to us through our faith in Christ. By adding water bpatism to faith then salvation becomes a work man does hoping to gain salvation. Anything man does inaddition to faith in Christ becomes a work of righteousness. To be rightous one must have their sins forgiven. If water which man does forgives our sin it then become a work of righteousness.

John the Baptist was the forerunner of Christ. His mission was to prepare the way for the Lord, and what did he do?

Mark 1

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Baptism, which you put as naught, was the method that the paths of the Lord were made straight, and what made JtB the greatest prophet of all.

Luke 3

3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Jesus, the one who did not need His sins remitted, was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. If baptism is required to fulfill all righteousness, who are YOU, to say it is not required?

Even the Apostles knew baptism is required:

Acts 2

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37

[DLClark]

John the Baptist was the forerunner of Christ. His mission was to prepare the way for the Lord, and what did he do?

Mark 1

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Baptism, which you put as naught, was the method that the paths of the Lord were made straight, and what made JtB the greatest prophet of all.

Luke 3

3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Jesus, the one who did not need His sins remitted, was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. If baptism is required to fulfill all righteousness, who are YOU, to say it is not required?

Even the Apostles knew baptism is required:

Acts 2

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37

[DLClark]

John the Baptist was the forerunner of Christ. His mission was to prepare the way for the Lord, and what did he do?

Mark 1

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Baptism, which you put as naught, was the method that the paths of the Lord were made straight, and what made JtB the greatest prophet of all.

Luke 3

3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Jesus, the one who did not need His sins remitted, was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. If baptism is required to fulfill all righteousness, who are YOU, to say it is not required?

Even the Apostles knew baptism is required:

Acts 2

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37

[DLClark]

John the Baptist was the forerunner of Christ. His mission was to prepare the way for the Lord, and what did he do?

Mark 1

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Baptism, which you put as naught, was the method that the paths of the Lord were made straight, and what made JtB the greatest prophet of all.

Luke 3

3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Jesus, the one who did not need His sins remitted, was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. If baptism is required to fulfill all righteousness, who are YOU, to say it is not required?

Even the Apostles knew baptism is required:

Acts 2

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37

[DLClark]

John the Baptist was the forerunner of Christ. His mission was to prepare the way for the Lord, and what did he do?

Mark 1

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Baptism, which you put as naught, was the method that the paths of the Lord were made straight, and what made JtB the greatest prophet of all.

Luke 3

3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Jesus, the one who did not need His sins remitted, was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. If baptism is required to fulfill all righteousness, who are YOU, to say it is not required?

Even the Apostles knew baptism is required:

Acts 2

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37

[Flyonthewall]

Q. Have you done all that you can do in order to be saved by grace (idividual salvation).

Already answered. You are not listening.

Baptismal regeneration It is Contrary to Luke 23:43

The thief on the cross was saved by faith alone. He obviously could not be circumcised or baptized. The principle applies regardless of whether one wants to argue that he was still in the Old Testament economy. He was saved by faith alone. The corresponding ritual or ordinance for the Old Testament period was circumcision, yet the thief on the cross was neither circumcised nor baptized, but he did get saved.

[DLClark]

Already answered. You are not listening.

Baptismal regeneration It is Contrary to Luke 23:43

The thief on the cross was saved by faith alone. He obviously could not be circumcised or baptized. The principle applies regardless of whether one wants to argue that he was still in the Old Testament economy. He was saved by faith alone. The corresponding ritual or ordinance for the Old Testament period was circumcision, yet the thief on the cross was neither circumcised nor baptized, but he did get saved.

You make assumptions with this that do not pan out. Nothing is said in the scriptures whether or not the thief was circumcised. Nothing is said in the scriptures on whether or not the thief was "saved" - this has been gone over before. You are not listening.

Then you ignore the scriptures.

Yes I have heard that there are some out there that believe being born of 'water' is the natural birth, but that is not true. The natural birth is being born of blood(John 1:13), or born after the flesh(Gal 4:29), not born of water.

Belief is the start of all things. If you believe, you will follow the commandments. If you believe, you will be baptized. If you believe, you will follow His teachings. Belief is the start, not the end.

You have spent a lot of time and effort arguing why the commandments and teachings are not required for salvation. Tell me, and I do expect an answer, what comes after salvation? Nothing but belief is required for salvation, why then were we given commandments and teachings? Once we are "saved" what is left?

Tell me, what was it that prepared the way of the Lord and to make His paths straight? Repentance and Baptism. What did the Lord tell the apostles to do? Teach all nations, baptizing them...The Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsels of God how? by not being baptized.

You take a few verses and base your entire belief on them, then strike down and argue against any other verse that may indicate that your belief is not complete.

Already answered several times. You are not listening.

Even when the scriptures are blatantly stating that baptism is for the remission of sins, you have to try and argue that they are not. I find your explainations convoluted and in disharmony with the scripture. I will leave you to them. Those that have ears to hear, let them hear...

[Flyonthewall]

So how do you know that you have done all that you can do to merit being saved by grace?

Have you kept Jesus's commandments perectly all of the time in order to be saved?

Have you ever lied?

Have you ever been mad at someone?

Have you ever failed just once to love the Lord with all of your heart?

How does one come to know that he had obeyed Christ well enough to merit individual salvation.

Repentance.

How come Jesus never said that water baptism saves us? John 3:5 is talking about our natural birth process and not watr bpatism. This pijnted out in the fact that later in John 3:18 Jesus said that only thing that condemnss us is unbelief.

Jesus said faith saves us and ubelief condemns John 3:15-18, 36; 5:24.

No one is saying that baptism saves. No one is saying that baptism saves. No one is saying that baptism saves. But Jesus did say that we must do that to enter the kingdom of God.

Natural birth is being born of blood or born of flesh or even born of woman, but being born of water is baptism. Once we are born of water for the remission of sins we are baptized by the spirit, which completes our rebirth.

Yes, unbelief condemns, because unbelief will not cause one to be baptized, or obey the commandments, or follow Christ. It is our faith that spurs us to action. Faith without works is dead. We are saved by grace through Faith. Does dead faith save?

And you have not answered my question as to what comes after salvation. Once we are saved, then what?

[Zakuska]

I'd like for DLCLARK to TRY and explain this one away...

Hebrews 10

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Why is the NEW COVENANT and remission of our sins administered by Baptism in blood AND Water?