Flyonthewall Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 Read the 1 Peter passage and tell my water baptism is unable to do? the tell me what Pater says baptism really is? Also, do you know what types are? 1 Peter 3:20-2120 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:KJVDLCBeing born of water IS baptism:John 3: 5 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Colossians 2 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the doperation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he aquickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Romans 6 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 1 Peter 3 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 Read the 1 Peter passage and tell my water baptism is unable to do? the tell me what Pater says baptism really is? Also, do you know what types are? 1 Peter 3:20-2120 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:KJVDLCNice!! I expouned what Peter was talking about. I did tell you waht Peter meant. What did you do? You repeated your self. Peter tells us that baptism doth now save us that baptism is a like figure unto the flood of the earth. I know exatcly what a "type" means. THe question is do you know what it means. Judging from this post it looks like what I said went right over your head. You must have baptism to be saved just as you must have faith and works to be saved. No one of those things by themsleves will save you. Jesus was clear what he meant when he told us that we must be born again of the water and of the spirit.Do you know what else baptism represents?You also failed to address why Jesus was baptised and why he said that it was "to fulfill all reightessousness".
DLClark Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 Being born of water IS baptism:John 3: 5 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Colossians 2 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the doperation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he aquickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Romans 6 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 1 Peter 3 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:Remember that not every time the word baptism is used in the Bible does it refer to water baptism. Sometime it refers to the baptism of the Spirit that placs all believers into Christ at salvation, 1 Cor. 12:13; Romans 6:1-4; Colo. 2. 1 Pet. 3:18-21In this passage, Peter tells us that baptism is prefigured by the deliverance of Noah
Zakuska Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 Remember that not every time the word baptism is used in the Bible does it refer to water baptism. Sometime it refers to the baptism of the Spirit that placs all believers into Christ at salvation, 1 Cor. 12:13; Romans 6:1-4; Colo. 2. 1 Pet. 3:18-21In this passage, Peter tells us that baptism is prefigured by the deliverance of Noah
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 Remember that not every time the word baptism is used in the Bible does it refer to water baptism. Sometime it refers to the baptism of the Spirit that placs all believers into Christ at salvation, 1 Cor. 12:13; Romans 6:1-4; Colo. 2. 1 Pet. 3:18-21In this passage, Peter tells us that baptism is prefigured by the deliverance of Noah
Zakuska Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 I already answered this directly with out equivocation. The answer is that a baptism of fire is required for that. But What did the baptism of water do for us in this verse? It is more than just a symbolic jesutre that one has accpeted Christ. Again notice that Peter says that 8 were saved by water. What does that mean?[up high mola]Heb. 10: 22 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. We are to be washed completely... both inside AND out. That is why the Jewish ritual washing was complete immersion of the dish. Washing it both inside AND out. The Holy ghost washes us inside, the water washes us on the outside.
Flyonthewall Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 Remember that not every time the word baptism is used in the Bible does it refer to water baptism. Sometime it refers to the baptism of the Spirit that placs all believers into Christ at salvation, 1 Cor. 12:13; Romans 6:1-4; Colo. 2. 1 Pet. 3:18-21In this passage, Peter tells us that baptism is prefigured by the deliverance of Noah
DLClark Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 I think Peters actions speek louder than words and is pretty self explanitory...Acts 10: 47 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? Peter baptized with both water AND spirit, because Christs doctrine has 2 baptisms.Heb 6 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Come on DLC this is the milk (basic principles) of the gospel.Context my friend. Follow the train of thought.Acts 10:44-11:144 While Peter yet spake these words (This is where they heard the Gospel and werre saved by faith alone.), the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word (Romans 8:9 tells us that if a person does not have the Holt Spirit he is not saved.).45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.KJVNotice that the people in Acts 10 were saved first before they were baptized. This order never changes in th Acts. Salvation came before baptism. Water Baptism does not save us my friend. Faith in Christ does though. DLC
Zakuska Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 Notice that the people in Acts 10 were saved first before they were baptized. This order never changes in th Acts. Salvation came before baptism. DLCNever say Never my Friend... you forgot about these ones...Acts 19 1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John
DLClark Posted October 22, 2009 Posted October 22, 2009 Never say Never my Friend... you forgot about these ones...Acts 19 1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John
DLClark Posted October 22, 2009 Posted October 22, 2009 Except that by Jesus' words, being born of water and of spirit is required to enter the kindom of God. And as the scriptures have stated, baptism is the ordinance by which we are born of water and by spirit. We are laid down in the water in a symbolic death of the sinful man, and come up out of the water in a symbolic resurrection, or re-birth unto a spiritual man, a newness of life. An ordinance that mirrors Jesus' death and resurrection. It seems that you are placing more emphasis on the words of the apostles, rather than the words of Christ. Take the words of Christ and see how the words of the apostles support what He has said.If Baptism was not important, why was John, the greatest prophet ever to have lived by Jesus' words, the Baptist's role to preach repentance and baptism. Why did Jesus send His apostles out to preach the word and baptize? Why did some baptisms have to be re-done, if they weren't important or required?Filth of the flesh is removed through repentance and baptism. The physical act of baptism does not remove it, but God removes it when we submit to His will and have the ordinance of baptism performed...by one in authority.Baptism is not salvation, but it is the first step towards it.Q. Where in the Bible does it say that water baptism removes the filth of the flesh? Peter says that is can't do this in 1 Peter 3. Is Peter wrong is saying that water baptism does not remove the filth of the flesh? the bible say that we are cleansed by the blood though?1 John 1:77 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.KJV DLC
Zakuska Posted October 22, 2009 Posted October 22, 2009 Acts 19 confirms that one is saved first then is baptized after salvation. This order never changes in Acts. In verse 2 they believed and were saved. In verse 5 they were baptized after salvation. It is ok to say this order never changes in Acts because it never changes. Salvation first then water baptism. It is not wrong to say never. God never changes, so is it wrong to say God NEVER changes? No, not if it is true. The Bible only teaches believer's baptism. DLCActs 19 doesn't bare out what you say.According to every Evangelical Ive ever talked to the only time one is "saved" is when they are Idwelt by the spirit (ie the born again experience) These people didn't even know there was such a thing. And they didn't get the holy ghost until AFTER baptism.
mrmendoza Posted October 22, 2009 Posted October 22, 2009 Boy, you people don't ever get enough do you? I went on a weeks vacation and you guys are still argueing with Darrel! I see Montys other thread is also still up too! I know that this kind of "Bible bashing" can be fun, but after a while it just gets old. I don't mind getting into the fray, so to speak, but hasn't anybody noticed that nobody is acomplishing anything? Oh well, to each his own. Maybe if this thread is still going tomorrow, and I have a little time, I'll jump back in. Mike
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted October 22, 2009 Posted October 22, 2009 Boy, you people don't ever get enough do you? I went on a weeks vacation and you guys are still argueing with Darrel! I see Montys other thread is also still up too! I know that this kind of "Bible bashing" can be fun, but after a while it just gets old. I don't mind getting into the fray, so to speak, but hasn't anybody noticed that nobody is acomplishing anything? Oh well, to each his own. Maybe if this thread is still going tomorrow, and I have a little time, I'll jump back in. MikeYeah, that is why I have repsonded today. I think I am done here.
Zakuska Posted October 22, 2009 Posted October 22, 2009 Q. Where in the Bible does it say that water baptism removes the filth of the flesh? Peter says that is can't do this in 1 Peter 3. Is Peter wrong is saying that water baptism does not remove the filth of the flesh? the bible say that we are cleansed by the blood though?1 John 1:77 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.KJV DLCAnd yet Peter says good works cover sin...1 Pet. 4: 8 8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
Flyonthewall Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 Q. Where in the Bible does it say that water baptism removes the filth of the flesh? Peter says that is can't do this in 1 Peter 3. Is Peter wrong is saying that water baptism does not remove the filth of the flesh? the bible say that we are cleansed by the blood though?1 John 1:77 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.KJV DLCHere are the words of Christ:Matthew 2819
DLClark Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 Acts 19 doesn't bare out what you say.According to every Evangelical Ive ever talked to the only time one is "saved" is when they are Idwelt by the spirit (ie the born again experience) These people didn't even know there was such a thing. And they didn't get the holy ghost until AFTER baptism.When studying Acts we must understand what type of book it is. It is history and history, most of the time, just tells you just what happened not if what happen is the norm. Acts is also a book of transition. It bridges the gap between the Gospels and the Epistles, between the ministry of Christ and of the Asptles. It is therfore an introductory book, full of historical background. Acts is more descriptive than prescriptive. We must be carefull using Acts as doctrine unless we have other passages from the Epistles to support that doctrine. This is good hermenutics. Romans 8:9 says that if a person does not have the Holy Spirit he is not saved. No passage teaches that the the reception of the Spirit comes through water baptism. The people here in Acts 19 were saved before they were baptized. The reception of the Holy spirit in Acts does not follow any set pattern. He (The Holy Spirit is given personal pronouns in the Bible)came into believers before baptism (10:44), at the time of or after baptism (8:12-16; 19:6). Yet Paul declares (Rom. 8:9) that anyone without the Holy Spirit is not a Chrisitian. Quite obviously the transitional Book of Acts is not to be unsed as a doctrinal source on how to receive the Holy Spirit. This baptism of the Spirit is experienced by all who believe (not all who are water baptized)regardless of nationality.Every person who is saved by faith alone in Christ is at salvation, that very moment, placed into the body of Christ. Every believer upon salvation is indwelt forever by the Holy Spirit Rom 8:9. Water baptism does not place the Spirit in us. In the church age, which we are in today, the Holy Spirit indwells the believing sinner the moment he or she is saved by faith alone in Christ, and He will never leave the believer, Rom 8:9. This forever abiding presence Of the Holy Spirit is not based on the faithfulness of the believer; rather, it is based on the faithfulness of the Father and the Son of God to their pledge word. All believer are indwelt, baptized and sealed forever with/by the Holy Spirit and can never lose their salvation, Eph 1:6-11; John 10:27-29. Water baptism does not save us.DLC
Flyonthewall Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 When studying Acts we must understand what type of book it is. It is history and history, most of the time, just tells you just what happened not if what happen is the norm. Acts is also a book of transition. It bridges the gap between the Gospels and the Epistles, between the ministry of Christ and of the Asptles. It is therfore an introductory book, full of historical background. Acts is more descriptive than prescriptive. We must be carefull using Acts as doctrine unless we have other passages from the Epistles to support that doctrine. This is good hermenutics. Romans 8:9 says that if a person does not have the Holy Spirit he is not saved. No passage teaches that the the reception of the Spirit comes through water baptism. The people here in Acts 19 were saved before they were baptized.You say the people in Acts 19 were saved before they were baptized, yet it states right there in Acts 19 that even though they claimed to have been baptized after the manner of John(not that John baptized them), they had never heard of the Holy Ghost. Then Paul baptized them and AFTEWARDS they received the Holy Ghost. So if they did not have the Holy Ghost until AFTER they were baptized, how can you then say they were saved BEFORE they were baptized, without the spirit? 1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John
DLClark Posted October 24, 2009 Posted October 24, 2009 You say the people in Acts 19 were saved before they were baptized, yet it states right there in Acts 19 that even though they claimed to have been baptized after the manner of John(not that John baptized them), they had never heard of the Holy Ghost. Then Paul baptized them and AFTEWARDS they received the Holy Ghost. So if they did not have the Holy Ghost until AFTER they were baptized, how can you then say they were saved BEFORE they were baptized, without the spirit?Notice that this manifestation of the Holy Ghost was given as evidence that the gentiles should be baptized -after Peter was given the vision to take the gospel to the gentiles. It was against the law for Jews to keep company with non-Jews(see verse 28)AFTER baptismThere is a difference between feeling the Holy Ghost and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. With very few exceptions, the proper order is baptism first, then receiving the Holy Ghost: "Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Even John laid this out in Mat 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:".See the pattern? Baptism first, then the Holy Ghost. Except for the exception that Jesus stated. Jesus spoke of one individual, but in light of LDS doctrine, it can be applied on a much greater scale. All who live on this world will be saved in one of the kingdoms of glory, except the sons of perdition. And no, water baptism does not place the the Spirit within us, no one claims it does, but before the GIFT of the Holy Ghost can be received, one must be baptized first.In the church age, which we are in today, the Holy Spirit indwells the believing sinner the moment he or she is saved by faith alone in Christ, and He will never leave the believer, Rom 8:9. This forever abiding presence Of the Holy Spirit is not based on the faithfulness of the believer; rather, it is based on the faithfulness of the Father and the Son of God to their pledge word. All believer are indwelt, baptized and sealed forever with/by the Holy Spirit and can never lose their salvation, Eph 1:6-11; John 10:27-29. Your reference to Eph says it well: 5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; 6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; 7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: 8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. 9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him. 10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. Notice there is a lot of DOING going on. And John 10 also states: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:". Belief alone is not all, but there is a whole lot of doing and following.Water baptism does not save us.Baptism alone does not save, but it is required, just as Jesus stated.Jesus never said that baptism saves us. The people in Acts 19 believed in Jesus before they were baptized. That means they were saved like Abraham was. Abraham believed God and God said that based on his faith he was righteous. We justified faith not on works, Romans 5:1.
Zakuska Posted October 24, 2009 Posted October 24, 2009 Jesus never said that baptism saves us. The people in Acts 19 believed in Jesus before they were baptized. How could they beleive in Jesus Chist before they where baptized if they had never even heard there was such a thing as a Holy Ghost, or Jesus Christ until Paul told them?Acts 192 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John
DLClark Posted October 26, 2009 Posted October 26, 2009 How could they beleive in Jesus Chist before they where baptized if they had never even heard there was such a thing as a Holy Ghost, or Jesus Christ until Paul told them?Acts 192 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John
Zakuska Posted October 26, 2009 Posted October 26, 2009 John 1:1818 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. (This referse to Jesus Christ.)oh oh Huston we have a problem.Ex. 24: 10-11 10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
DLClark Posted October 26, 2009 Posted October 26, 2009 oh oh Huston we have a problem.Ex. 24: 10-11 10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.First John 1:18 is true in that no person has ever seen God. God is a Spirit John 4:2424 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.KJVThe Jews in Ex. 24 saw the God of Israel in sense that they had a vision of Him in which they discerned who He is. Apparently the sight was so grand and awesome that their eyes saw only below His feet. When the Bible says that they "saw God" this doesn't mean they beheld God in His essential being, for this isn't possible (Jn. 1:18). They saw some of God's glory and they probably saw the throne of God on sappihre pavement, but the invisible God was hidden from them. So, no person can see God and live. If they saw God in the fullest it was Jesus Christ they beheld, John 1:18. Also John 14 will help as well. John 14:8-98 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?KJVDLC
Vance Posted October 26, 2009 Posted October 26, 2009 Jesus Chrust was perfect God and perfect man all at the same time.John 1:1818 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. (This referse to Jesus Christ.)NASUDLCSo no one saw Jesus?
Zakuska Posted October 26, 2009 Posted October 26, 2009 First John 1:18 is true in that no person has ever seen God. God is a Spirit John 4:2424 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.KJVSo is Jesus...1 Cor 1545 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 2 Cor. 3: 17 17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. So are all the people who are Born of God.John 3 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The awind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. The Jews in Ex. 24 saw the God of Israel in sense that they had a vision of Him in which they discerned who He is. Apparently the sight was so grand and awesome that their eyes saw only below His feet. When the Bible says that they "saw God" this doesn't mean they beheld God in His essential being, for this isn't possible (Jn. 1:18). They saw some of God's glory and they probably saw the throne of God on sappihre pavement, but the invisible God was hidden from them. Looks like you need to go read Exodus again... this wasn't a "vision".Ex. 19: 11 11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai. God came down and walked on Mt. Sinai.
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