The Problem of Salvation

[Tanyan]

Have you ever studied a foreign language before? You know they will often have thing in them that the English does not. With the Greek double negative it does not matter if the English has one or not. I am telling you what the Greek says. The NT was written in Greek and the btter we undersatand Greek the better we can understand the NT. The closest the English gets to expressing that Greek double negative is "shall never." Do you know what the word never means? It means, not ever, on no occasion, at not time. Sounds defenit to me. A believer can never ever lose his salvation. Also, can you show a conditional phrase in John 10:27-29? For your information all Greek conditional phrases begins with the word "if."

DLC

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Have you ever studied a foreign language before? You know they will often have thing in them that the English does not. With the Greek double negative it does not matter if the English has one or not. I am telling you what the Greek says. The NT was written in Greek and the btter we undersatand Greek the better we can understand the NT. The closest the English gets to expressing that Greek double negative is "shall never." Do you know what the word never means? It means, not ever, on no occasion, at not time. Sounds defenit to me. A believer can never ever lose his salvation. Also, can you show a conditional phrase in John 10:27-29? For your information all Greek conditional phrases begins with the word "if."

DLC

Bummer I thought Christ spoke Aramic.

[DLClark]

This is why we need true prophets today, to help us understand what the Bible means, so that we don't have to keep trying to keep up with every crackpot and psudoscholar like you telling us how to read Greek, & Hebrew. While it's true that it's good to know the context that the Jews of Jesus day may have seen things differently then we do today, you'll find that even their scholars today don't agree on much of what the Bible meant thousands of years ago! We need to know what it means to us today!

As for your example , you seem to be going way beyond the mark! "I am of the same substance or essence as my father is" can in no way be streached to "I am my father!" Nor can "I and my father are one." be reasonably understood to mean that, when you read John 17;

So let me ask you, who was Jesus praying to? Himself?

Again like so many other EVs, you keep howling that we don't believe in the Jesus of the Bible, as if you do! But you can't see past your own misinterpetations of what Jesus is! No matter what you or we think about what Jesus stands for, we are both talking about the same Jesus! We just have a different perspective about what He's done for us, and how he did it!

Mike

We do not need prophets today God says so. We have the only true prophet we need today in Jesus Christ.

Heb 1:1-8

1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

KJV

DLC

[DLClark]

Let's look at the Greek of John 1:1 shall we?

En archE eimi ho logos kai ho logos eimi pros ho theos kai theos eimi ho logos

In beginning was the word and the word was toward the god and god was the word.

If DLClark understood the Greek, which he CLEARLY doesn't, he would know that this is very clear language describing the TWO SEPARATE beings, "the god" and "the word", and in the beginning BOTH of THEM were together.

AND the phrase "god was the word" means literally that "the word" was DIVINE!!!!!!!

Of course this verse doesn't specify exactly what "in beginning" is referring too. And of course DLClark ASSUMES that it is the beginning of everything.

If John 1:1-3 is describing two different beings then which one do you worship and why not the other being? Which one came first? Did one being come from the other?

DLC

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

If John 1:1-3 is describing two different beings then which one do you worship and why not the other being? Which one came first? Did one being come from the other?

DLC

Neither came first both are eternal. THis isn't an either/or.

Try to wrap your head aroudn this.

Besides the point waht does your question have to do with weather or not John 1:1-3 is talking about 2 different being. It has nothing to do with it. One could come be fore the other. All I have to say is "It is still talking about 2 different people". It looks as if you are trying to deflect the point that has been well made because it runs against your preconcieved notion.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

We do not need prophets today God says so. We have the only true prophet we need today in Jesus Christ.

Heb 1:1-8

1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

KJV

DLC

Thats why in the book fo Acts we are told of other prophets. Sorry but your mis-interpretaion isn't sticking on this one.

[DLClark]

Bummer I thought Christ spoke Aramic.

He can spoke any anguage because He is God. He chose Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic because this is what the people knew.

[Flyonthewall]

Have you ever studied a foreign language before? You know they will often have thing in them that the English does not. With the Greek double negative it does not matter if the English has one or not. I am telling you what the Greek says. The NT was written in Greek and the btter we undersatand Greek the better we can understand the NT. The closest the English gets to expressing that Greek double negative is "shall never." Do you know what the word never means? It means, not ever, on no occasion, at not time. Sounds defenit to me. A believer can never ever lose his salvation. Also, can you show a conditional phrase in John 10:27-29? For your information all Greek conditional phrases begins with the word "if."

DLC

I actually have studied a foreign language and am well aware that there are constructs the do not translate direcetly into english. My confusion was when YOU stated that it should read "shall not never perish". I have already come to understand that it is the greek that used the double negative, not the english. I have moved on, and am still waiting your response to my questions.

I will go with you on this for a bit...what if they don't live "godly" lives? What if I am past that defining moment whereby I am saved and have eternal life, then I stop hearning and following? Are you saying God will not allow that to happen? or are you saying, as I have heard said before, that I was never truely saved to begin with? If it is the latter, then there really isn't a defining moment if in hind sight it can be said that "I was never really saved to begin with". If there is no defining moment, then salvation is a process or a path we must follow, and the further we get down the path, the less likely we are to stop hearing and following...but the possibility is still there.

I know this goes against your understanding, but please address the questions I have asked...don't just quote scripture because you will understand it one way and my understanding may not match yours.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

He can spoke any anguage because He is God. He chose Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic because this is what the people knew.

Were are the original documents that prove that it was written in greek?

[DLClark]

I actually have studied a foreign language and am well aware that there are constructs the do not translate direcetly into english. My confusion was when YOU stated that it should read "shall not never perish". I have already come to understand that it is the greek that used the double negative, not the english. I have moved on, and am still waiting your response to my questions.

The closer one understands the Greek the better one will know what the Passage says. A double negative has to be translated the best we can in the English. We do not use a double negative but the Greek does. The word "never perish" is a fine understanding of the Greek double negative. What does "never" mean? It means just what is says. Look it us in the English to find out. There is not one passage in the bible if understood in context that teaches that a believer in christ by faith alone can ever lose his salvation. The double negative word shall not never perish points this out. Period.

DLC

[DLClark]

To my Mormon friends.

The Book of Mormon teaches that you are saved by grace after all you can do. (2 Nephi 25:23)

Have you done all that you can do in order to be saved by grace?

DLC

[DLClark]

There is only One, True, Living, Creator God and that is Christ Jesus. Here is a chart comparing what the NT and OT says about this truth.

IS Jesus GOD, "YAHWEH"

John 1:3, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

Col. 1:16-17, "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." Creator Job 33:4, "The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life."

Isaiah 40:28, "Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom."

Rev. 1:17, "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said:

[Flyonthewall]

The closer one understands the Greek the better one will know what the Passage says. A double negative has to be translated the best we can in the English. We do not use a double negative but the Greek does. The word "never perish" is a fine understanding of the Greek double negative. What does "never" mean? It means just what is says. Look it us in the English to find out. There is not one passage in the bible if understood in context that teaches that a believer in christ by faith alone can ever lose his salvation. The double negative word shall not never perish points this out. Period.

DLC

How about John 17?

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Verse 8 is describing who? Then in verse 12 Jesus says that one was lost, AFTER being given to Him by the Father. Then in verse 15, Jesus still prays to the Father to keep those that He has been given, from evil.

Again I ask you, and please leave the Greek out of it, and answer my questions. You seem to be pretty confident that a believer in Christ by faith alone will never ever lose their salvation, however Jesus Christ says there is an exception, and then still prays that those He has been give will be kept from temptation and evil. One would think that Jesus would be as confident as you are that none will lose their salvation. Did Jesus tell a lie in John 10 that none will be lost? or was John 17 a lie that one was lost? Or is there more to the picture than meets your eye?

[Flyonthewall]

To my Mormon friends.

The Book of Mormon teaches that you are saved by grace after all you can do. (2 Nephi 25:23)

Have you done all that you can do in order to be saved by grace?

DLC

Not yet, as my life is not over, and I will continue to do as the Lord taught all the days of my life. How about you? If once you have been given salvation, is it vacation time for you? Can you then stop following the words of Christ?

[mfbukowski]

To my Mormon friends.

The Book of Mormon teaches that you are saved by grace after all you can do. (2 Nephi 25:23)

Have you done all that you can do in order to be saved by grace?

DLC

That's not what it means. It means that we cannot ever do enough to be saved, and ultimately, after all we can do, we are saved by grace.

[DLClark]

How about John 17?

Verse 8 is describing who? Then in verse 12 Jesus says that one was lost, AFTER being given to Him by the Father. Then in verse 15, Jesus still prays to the Father to keep those that He has been given, from evil.

Again I ask you, and please leave the Greek out of it, and answer my questions. You seem to be pretty confident that a believer in Christ by faith alone will never ever lose their salvation, however Jesus Christ says there is an exception, and then still prays that those He has been give will be kept from temptation and evil. One would think that Jesus would be as confident as you are that none will lose their salvation. Did Jesus tell a lie in John 10 that none will be lost? or was John 17 a lie that one was lost? Or is there more to the picture than meets your eye?

John is not teacher here that we can lose our salvation. Context fetermines the proper understanding of each passage in the Bible. Jesus is gives eternal to those whom the Father has given to Him, Jn 17:2. In John 17:8 Jesus is speaking about the desciples. How do I know this? By the context from verse 6. In John 17:12 the one that was lost was given to Jesus or he would have eternal life. By not having eternal life show that this one was never given to Jesus. This is the "son of perdition" a single person called Judas. He was never one of the sheep and his character reemforced this truth, Jn. 13:11; 1 John 2:19. John is not teaching that we can lose our salvation. John 10:27-29 confirms this true. All true sheep will never perish (double negative). No passage in the Bible says that those who are saved by alone in Christ will lose their salvation.

Q.Can we save ourselves? NO.

Q. Since we can not save ourselves what makes you think we can keep ourselves saved?

DLC

[DLClark]

The Bible teaches that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit are one, and yet they are three. Note these statements from Scripture:

Isaiah 7:14 /Matthew 1:23 = Messiah/Jesus is to be named

[Zakuska]

To my Mormon friends.

The Book of Mormon teaches that you are saved by grace after all you can do. (2 Nephi 25:23)

Have you done all that you can do in order to be saved by grace?

DLC

Jesus says...

Matt 7

21

[Flyonthewall]

John is not teacher here that we can lose our salvation. Context fetermines the proper understanding of each passage in the Bible. Jesus is gives eternal to those whom the Father has given to Him, Jn 17:2. In John 17:8 Jesus is speaking about the desciples. How do I know this? By the context from verse

Was Judas not one of the diciples?

6. In John 17:12 the one that was lost was given to Jesus or he would have eternal life. By not having eternal life show that this one was never given to Jesus. This is the "son of perdition" a single person called Judas. He was never one of the sheep and his character reemforced this truth, Jn. 13:11; 1 John 2:19.

So you are saying that Judas was never given to Jesus? To arrive at this conclusion, you must ignore verse 12. "12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." Jesus is saying right here that of those that were given to Him, none were lost, but the son of perdition, which was Judas.

John is not teaching that we can lose our salvation. John 10:27-29 confirms this true. All true sheep will never perish (double negative). No passage in the Bible says that those who are saved by alone in Christ will lose their salvation.

Except, of course, as Jesus has stated, Judas. Judas met your definition of being saved by faith alone, and by Jesus' own words Judas was given to Him by the Father, but Judas was lost. If Judas did not have salvation/eternal life(by your definition), what was he lost from? The scriptures also say Judas fell. Fell from what?

Q.Can we save ourselves? NO.

Q. Since we can not save ourselves what makes you think we can keep ourselves saved?

I agree that we cannot save ourselves, but just because we cannot save ourselves, does not mean we have no part to play. We have commandments, and teachings of Jesus, what are these for? From what I understand you saying, they are useless. We do not need them to be "saved", nor do we need them to stay "saved". What are they for?

[Zakuska]

John is not teacher here that we can lose our salvation. Context fetermines the proper understanding of each passage in the Bible. Jesus is gives eternal to those whom the Father has given to Him, Jn 17:2. In John 17:8 Jesus is speaking about the desciples. How do I know this? By the context from verse 6. In John 17:12 the one that was lost was given to Jesus or he would have eternal life. By not having eternal life show that this one was never given to Jesus. This is the "son of perdition" a single person called Judas. He was never one of the sheep and his character reemforced this truth, Jn. 13:11; 1 John 2:19. John is not teaching that we can lose our salvation. John 10:27-29 confirms this true. All true sheep will never perish (double negative). No passage in the Bible says that those who are saved by alone in Christ will lose their salvation.

Q.Can we save ourselves? NO.

Q. Since we can not save ourselves what makes you think we can keep ourselves saved?

DLC

Q. If our salvation is so secure as you pretend then... Paul, or whom ever the author of Hebrews is, is lying!

Heb 6

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

If you notice these are people who have been "Indwelt" by the Holy Ghost (ie born again). According to you they can't lose their salvation. So then why even bring this up if salvation is so secure?

Also Christs Parable of the sower invalidates your claim and shows us that the author of Hebrews knew what they were talking about.

Matt 13

18

[DLClark]

Jesus says...

Matt 7

21

[Zakuska]

Q. If works are needed for salvation then have you sold all of your goods and given them to the poor?

Of couse you will not because you know how obserd that would be. But what if you do not have to work your way to heaven and that someone else has already opened the door of heaven for you and all you have to do is accept the free gift of eternal life by faith in Jesus Christ? Sounds great but many will never accept this free gift of eternal because they think it is possible to do the impossibl, work your way to heaven.

Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

KJV

Please continue to the next verse rather than remove it from context.

Eph 2

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Beleivers need to WALK the walk rather than talk the talk. It takes much more than grace to be saved.

[Vance]

Your Greek is incorrect. It never says the Word was toward God. That is very bad Greek.

Sorry but you are in error. From a Non-Mormon Christian site.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh1.pdf

John 1:1

John 1:1-2

:1 En arche

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

To my Mormon friends.

The Book of Mormon teaches that you are saved by grace after all you can do. (2 Nephi 25:23)

Have you done all that you can do in order to be saved by grace?

DLC

Sure have. Christ said that we must endure to the end. We cannot expect salvation if we don't do what we can to be saved. Christ requires us to take up his name and love him. How can we love him if we keep not his commandments.

James tells us that our faith is dead if it is alone. Sorry but the BoM is more biblical than your theology is. Your theology is "once I confess Jesus I can just sit around 'cause I am saved".

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

John is not teacher here that we can lose our salvation. Context fetermines the proper understanding of each passage in the Bible. Jesus is gives eternal to those whom the Father has given to Him, Jn 17:2. In John 17:8 Jesus is speaking about the desciples. How do I know this? By the context from verse 6. In John 17:12 the one that was lost was given to Jesus or he would have eternal life. By not having eternal life show that this one was never given to Jesus.

Context does not show this. It doesn't boad well for you to shout "Context, context, context" and then not only not offering any context that changes what we bring up but you yourslef add things to the verse that the verse never says or even implies. This is a horrible attempt of a rebuttal.

This is the "son of perdition" a single person called Judas. He was never one of the sheep and his character reemforced this truth, Jn. 13:11; 1 John 2:19. John is not teaching that we can lose our salvation. John 10:27-29 confirms this true. All true sheep will never perish (double negative). No passage in the Bible says that those who are saved by alone in Christ will lose their salvation.

Q.Can we save ourselves? NO.

Q. Since we can not save ourselves what makes you think we can keep ourselves saved?

DLC

Sorry I the text simply disagrees with your interpretation. Judas was one of Jesus.

We cannot save ourselves.

WE can keep oursleves saved if we follow Christ. Do you suppose that once your confess Jesus you can be disobediant and break all the commandments because, "hey they are just suggestions".

You cannot even tell a lie and expect to be saved as Revelations written by John delcare such.