The Problem of Salvation

[DLClark]

The true and only creator God of the Bible has provided a way for all men to be saved but not all will accept it. Romans tells us in chapter 3:23 and chapter 6:23 that all men are are sinners before God and guilty. Romans 1 tells us that there is enough evedence in creation to know that there is a God. But becuase of sin man will refuse to believe in this Creator God. All men are sinners and guilty before a Holy God. If you truely understnd the sinfulness of man vs the holiness of God you never believe that a lost person who has never heard will get another chance. Many of us already have a chance to believe but refuse to do so. Why do you think mankind has an natural bent to worship something? It is because God has place in man the need to woship something. Man will either worship the One true Creator God of the Bible or something else. All men do worship something. If not the Creator God of the Bible then something else. The Bible says this, Prov 14:12

12 There is a way which seems right to a man,

But its end is the way of death.

NASU

Prov 16:25

25 There is a way which seems right to a man,

But its end is the way of death.

Gal 1:6-9

I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Here is the Gospel message that Paul preached 1 Cor 15:1-5

Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

NASU

Notice the absence of a burning in the bosom, joining a church, being baptized, or doing good works. Paul says that salvation is based on what a person will do with Christ in faith. Faith alone saves and lack of faith condemns. Jesus even agreed with Paul because He taught Paul all he needed to know about God, salvation and Christian living.

John 3:16-19

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 " He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Acts 16:31 tells us to believe and be saved. It is just that simple.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Acts 16:31 tells us to believe and be saved. It is just that simple.

So I do beleive that Christ is the savior of the world and yet you feel some need to preach to us mormons? Why is that. If it really is just that simple what are you doing here? Shouldn't you be on an athiest board? Go preach to those that don't beleive.

[mrmendoza]

"Yet you take principles for which you don't even have a foundational belief in, and then seek to aply them to an eternity which you also don't believe in!"

You seem to imply that I have no authority on the subject. Is this correct?

I don't think that authority, or lack thereof has anything to do with it. You have a perfect right to address the subject as you see it. I was (Beating a dead horse, of no particular importence, actually!) simply replying to your statement that IMO implied that I was not taking your thoughts on the subject seriously because I thought it was only speculative! What I meant was that none of us can speak with any real authority on the depth of the subject, but those of us who are believers have the scriptures, which we consider the Word of God to back us up. While you may try to use those same scriptures to argue against us, since you yourself don't accept the validity of that which you hope to use against us, your credability in the inturpretation of those scriptures is greatly compromised!

Those who chose to follow Satan did not understand the plan of salvation's superiority, because their choice was made out of confusion, ignorance, or deception.

True or false? Explain specifically regarding their choice and confusion. Were they confused, ignorant, or deceived? Was this their fault?

How would I know that? My understanding is that they were given the same choice that we were, either follow Gods plan, or follow Lucifers, and give up their agency! They gave up thier agency!

And this is the "center" of my argument. God doesn't have to give us a free-ride, because after we understand the celestial kingdom, we will do anything it takes to get to it. So, God doesn't have to "do the work" for anyone, because they'll do it themselves after they understand. Everyone!

Ok, I've changed my tune about as far as I can, and I will allow that we may have a chance to progress from a lower kingdom to a higher one, maybe! But I think that you're wrong, thinking that everyone will be willing to do what it takes for exaltation. I'm a blue coller working man. I go to work, do my job as best as I can for 8 hrs a day, and go home, and watch tv or something like that. I don't spend my off time trying to figure out how to increase sales at my work place, not being a mechanic or an enginier, I don't give a lot of, if any thought about how to improve the flow of products in my place. I don't expect to get rich. I only feel the need to make enough to feed and house and cloth my family, and have a little lsft over for extras, or emergancy. I don't want to be a supervisor, mananger, or especialy a CEO! Most of the people I've worked with for the last 40 yrs are just like that.

There's a thing that for lack of a better phrase, I'll call the "comfort zone." IMO there will be a substantial number of souls who will actualy be more "comfortable" in a lower kingdom. They wont have to continually work at creating new worlds, peopleing them with rebellious children, and all that it takes to be a god! Sure they wont have the glory, or the honor, and all the "perks" that go with it, but they also wont have the constent agravation that comes with it. If you think that the Lord, being who he is doesnt get angry, or sad , consider what he had to do to provide for the Atonement! Jesus took on all of our pains, all of our sins, and paid the price for them with His oun blood!

For behold, I, God have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent... Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit - and would that I might not drink the bitter cup and shrink - nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men. D&C 19;16,18-19

And He did this for our exaltation, not His!

I just think that there are more then you imagine who just don't want that responsability! And the thing is, they will not feel doomed at all (At least after they've finished paying the finite price for their sins) they will just find their own "comfort zone"!

So, are you saying that people come to earth doomed to be deceived beyond their own power? And that's why you do baptisms for the dead? They're baptism who died and never became mormon because they had no power to do so?.

Is there a sword hanging over your head or something? You sure like to use the word "doomed" a lot! That and "confused, ignorant, or decieved"!

But to answer your question, there are millions, if not billions of people who have come to earth, live and die, without ever having heard of Jesus, much less the restoration of the Gospel! So yes, they never had the opportunity, to become real "Saints", either former, or latter-day! That's what Temples are all about, performing the ordenences, in their behalf, that they were'nt able to do in life. Then it's up to them to go forward or not.

Didn't you say you were Mormon once? I guess you quit before you knew about that?

Mike

BTW my reference about your attitude had to do with your insistence that God should do what you think is fair. Niether you, or I or anyone else on this planet has the authority, or even the right to tell God what He should do! He tells us!

[Flyonthewall]

Why would anyone ever not pick the infinitely more beneficial choice, if they knew that it was the infinitely more beneficial choice? I don't think too many people on here understand the idea of infinity.

That is is the $64,000 question...Why do people choose bad over good? You seem to claim it is only out of ignorance. How do you propose someone get a certain understanding of the infinitely more beneficial choice?

I'm sorry, again... A person that takes the "lure of immediate reward" does not understand the reward they are neglecting. If they understood the ultimate reward, they would know that picking an immediate reward over a long term reward is comparable to picking to smoke while you're a developing teenager instead of keeping the rewards of health in to adulthood. (And any other adequate metaphor.)

Yet there are many people out there that have watched freinds and family self destruct with alcohol, tobacco, drugs,and other bad choices and choose to go down that same path. Do you claim they do not understand the bad outcome of those paths? That they don't understand there is a better choice to make?

At all? They are your own words.

As I understand your premise...that no one will make a bad choice if they understand the consequences, then I do not agree with it at all. Your premise is all inclusive. I believe some will and some won't.

"They do not have to understand the Celestial Kingdom. All they have to do is understand that Jesus is Lord. If they understand that, then they will believe His words. If they believe His words, then they will believe the rewards that He has promised.

Your angle seems to be that people will only work there butts off for a reward, and not out of love for the Savior. I say your angle is flawed. The understanding one must have is Jesus is the Christ, and of His teachings. Everything else is how we excercise our faith. We do not have to have an understanding of the CK...Jesus has already laid it out for us....damnation = bad, joint heirs with Christ = good. Very plain. It is man's desire for rewards now verses rewards later that trips them up."

If someone believes the reward, then they will know that it's better than all the other choices by an infinite amount.

Are you now saying that we don't need a perfect understanding, but just a belief?

A person who commits a crime has to accept a certain risk. See, the reason people still commit crimes is precisely for that reason: A risk means that there is a possibility, and for some people, the possibility of reward outweighs the risk.

Except when you understand the ultimate and infinite reward, you understand that there are no risks. There's nothing to worry about. Every other choice besides it, holds a risk, but ultimate exaltation holds none.

So, would someone still commit a crime if they fully understood that it definitely lead him to jail, regardless of risk?

Do you see what this understanding entails?

Why do people gamble? because the chance of instant riches outweigh the odds of losing money. Any gambler knows that the odds are stacked in favor of the house, and in the long run the house always wins. Yet people continue to gamble all the time...ignoring what they know to be true, and risking more than is prudent. The same thing goes for eternal rewards. People can understand that heaven is soooo much better than any other place, yet still make choices that would exclude them from that reward.

Why did Cain make the choice to kill his brother? God Himself even spoke to him, and still Cain chose to go against Him.

Why did King David commit murder and adultery...are you saying that he didn't understand what he was doing? what he was risking?

Why did Solomon marry women outside of the House of Israel, even though he was commanded not to? Are you saying that Solomon in all his wisdom didn't understand what he was risking?

Why did Judas betray the Savior? He was hand picked by Jesus and in His inner circle, witnessed all the miracles, heard all the teachings taught by the Son of God Himself. Are you saying Judas did not understand what He was risking? Did Jesus not make it clear?

As part of human nature, some people will always choose the right, and some people will not, in spite of understanding the difference.

[Montgomery Price]

That is is the $64,000 question...Why do people choose bad over good? You seem to claim it is only out of ignorance. How do you propose someone get a certain understanding of the infinitely more beneficial choice?

An adequate understanding can be reached after the are freed from the confusion, ignorance, and deception that restricts them. After the confusion is lifted, the will to understand is found. After someone understands they must willingly have faith to gain an adequate understanding, they will do so... If this has not already happened, as would plain faith or belief would allow.

Are you now saying that we don't need a perfect understanding, but just a belief?

As I understand your premise...that no one will make a bad choice if they understand the consequences, then I do not agree with it at all. Your premise is all inclusive. I believe some will and some won't.

Why do people gamble? because the chance of instant riches outweigh the odds of losing money. Any gambler knows that the odds are stacked in favor of the house, and in the long run the house always wins. Yet people continue to gamble all the time...ignoring what they know to be true, and risking more than is prudent. The same thing goes for eternal rewards. People can understand that heaven is soooo much better than any other place, yet still make choices that would exclude them from that reward.

Why did Cain make the choice to kill his brother? God Himself even spoke to him, and still Cain chose to go against Him.

Why did King David commit murder and adultery...are you saying that he didn't understand what he was doing? what he was risking?

Why did Solomon marry women outside of the House of Israel, even though he was commanded not to? Are you saying that Solomon in all his wisdom didn't understand what he was risking?

Why did Judas betray the Savior? He was hand picked by Jesus and in His inner circle, witnessed all the miracles, heard all the teachings taught by the Son of God Himself. Are you saying Judas did not understand what He was risking? Did Jesus not make it clear?

As part of human nature, some people will always choose the right, and some people will not, in spite of understanding the difference.

Yet there are many people out there that have watched freinds and family self destruct with alcohol, tobacco, drugs,and other bad choices and choose to go down that same path. Do you claim they do not understand the bad outcome of those paths? That they don't understand there is a better choice to make?

I contest, that given the assumption that the Celestial Kingdom exists, that every sin and action that leads someone away from the Celestial Kingdom is a decision made out of confusion, ignorance, and deception.

There is no alternative.

Any one of the examples you have provided, those people still committed those actions that lead them away because they were confused as to what they should be doing, ignorant of the consequences, or deceived in to holding different consequences in their mind.

You need to view it from the eternal ultimate exaltation and celestial kingdom perspective.

[Flyonthewall]

An adequate understanding can be reached after the are freed from the confusion, ignorance, and deception that restricts them. After the confusion is lifted, the will to understand is found. After someone understands they must willingly have faith to gain an adequate understanding, they will do so... If this has not already happened, as would plain faith or belief would allow.

I contest, that given the assumption that the Celestial Kingdom exists, that every sin and action that leads someone away from the Celestial Kingdom is a decision made out of confusion, ignorance, and deception.

There is no alternative.

Any one of the examples you have provided, those people still committed those actions that lead them away because they were confused as to what they should be doing, ignorant of the consequences, or deceived in to holding different consequences in their mind.

You need to view it from the eternal ultimate exaltation and celestial kingdom perspective.

King David was confused about murder and adultery and their consequences? ignorant about murder and adultery? Deceived about murder and adultery? That is a hard sell at best. Are you confused about committing murder so that you can have another man's wife? Is there any confusion, ignorance or deception on your part about those acts and their consequences? You paint a very improbable picture. But, I suppose it is a picture of your own making so paint it any way you wish.

[Montgomery Price]

King David was confused about murder and adultery and their consequences? ignorant about murder and adultery? Deceived about murder and adultery? That is a hard sell at best. Are you confused about committing murder so that you can have another man's wife? Is there any confusion, ignorance or deception on your part about those acts and their consequences? You paint a very improbable picture. But, I suppose it is a picture of your own making so paint it any way you wish.

Please, how any of these examples not the results of confusion, ignorance or deception?

[Flyonthewall]

Please, how any of these examples not the results of confusion, ignorance or deception?

Let me ask you again...is there any confustion in your mind about what the consequences would be if you murdered someone? Not just killing in self defense, but killing to get gain. Do you feel that you are not informed enough about the consequences of murder, both in the temporal and eternal sense, that if you committed murder you can claim "I didn't understand that murder is bad" and be justified in you actions?

What leads you to believe that any of the examples I provided was a result of confusion, ignorance or deception? Besides the premise you set forth of course.

All of the examples I gave were adults, grown men who had been taught right and wrong all their lives, and some of them were even in charge of handing down judgments to others. To make the claim that these men were ignorant or confused, is ignorance in itself. One can only be deceived if they first set aside what they already understand, in which case, they choose to deny their own understanding.

[DLClark]

What Jesus do you nelieve in the Mormon Jesus was a man who became God through obedience to the Mormon gospel? That is not the Jesus of the Bible. God never had to progress. The Jesus of the Bible is the only true Creator God from eternity past. Jesus has never has a beginning or an end. There never was a time when Jesus was not God. Q. The demons blieve in God what is the difference between your belief and theirs? You believe in Jesus but that is not enough for you. You feel that works are needed in hope of doing enough to gain the third heaven with God? The Bible says works of any kind are not needed for one to enter heaven to be with God. God has done it all for us through the cross of Christ. John 3:16.

[Zakuska]

The Bible says works of any kind are not needed for one to enter heaven to be with God.

Thats not what Jesus said.

Mat 7

21 ? Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 ? Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. <A name=28> 28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: 29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

[MorningStar]

Church doctrine is that everyone will eventually confess that Jesus is the Christ. That's not saying that they accepted Him as their savior. It might be the case at that moment that they're kicking themselves for not having accepted Him or the ordinances they needed.

[Rob Osborn]

What Jesus do you nelieve in the Mormon Jesus was a man who became God through obedience to the Mormon gospel? That is not the Jesus of the Bible. God never had to progress. The Jesus of the Bible is the only true Creator God from eternity past. Jesus has never has a beginning or an end. There never was a time when Jesus was not God. Q. The demons blieve in God what is the difference between your belief and theirs? You believe in Jesus but that is not enough for you. You feel that works are needed in hope of doing enough to gain the third heaven with God? The Bible says works of any kind are not needed for one to enter heaven to be with God. God has done it all for us through the cross of Christ. John 3:16.

So, does this mean a dirty unrepentant whoremonger gets into heaven?

[Hoops22]

ame='DLClark' date='05 October 2009 - 08:03 PM' timestamp='1254794589' post='1208728841']

Thats not what Jesus said.

Mat 7

21 ? Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 ? Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. <A name=28> 28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: 29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

And where again does Jesus mention heaven? or eternity? or the afterlife? Your only possibility could be kingdom of heaven, which we know from the other gospels is equal to kingdom of God. Can you show that either/both of these is the afterlife?

[DLClark]

Thats not what Jesus said.

Mat 7

21 ? Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 ? Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. <A name=28> 28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: 29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Context, context, context determines the meaningof the passage. this passage does not begin with verse 21. Go back to chapter 5 to find the context of this passage. this passage is part of the Sermon on the Mount that Jesus delivered. Jesus was instructing the multitude of Jews in view of His announcement of the coming kingdom (4:17. This message showed how a person who is already saved and in a right relationship with God through faith alone should conduct himself in his life). Jesus is not tell us how to be saved. He is talking to those who are already saved by faith alone in Christ. In chapter 7 verse 15 Jesus tells the crowd to be aware of false prophets. So when you go down to verse 21 he is still refering to false prophets and how to recognize them. True saved people with bear spiritual fruit v. 20, and false prophet were not exhibiting true saving faith in Christ. these false prophets calim to be saved but are not because they did not put their faith into practice verses 21. We are saved by faith alone in Christ but that faith that saves is never alone, it is accompanied by works after salvation. Doing the will of God first must be believing in Christ as your personal Savior alone apart from any self effort of trying to mke yourself acceptable to God through good works. (If good works are part of syour alvation how do you know that you are doing all that God wants you to do or even are doing the right works to be saved? How do you know you have done your works well enough to merit salvation?) Then after being saved God asks us to put our faith into practice.Phil 2:12-13; Eph 2:10.

12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out (exhibit, show forth not work for) your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

NASU

Understanding each passage in context helps us to come to correct understanding of what God is telling us. No passage in the Bible tells us to work for our salvation. Eph 2:8-10

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

KJV

[mrmendoza]

And where again does Jesus mention heaven? or eternity? or the afterlife? Your only possibility could be kingdom of heaven, which we know from the other gospels is equal to kingdom of God. Can you show that either/both of these is the afterlife?

Ah, Hoops. You and DLClark don't seem to have any idea as to what M Price is trying to do here, do you? This is not a discussion as to "which Jesus is right"! The postulate that he is giving here is, that given the nature of "eternal progression" as we, that is the Mormons, proclaim it, he believes that it it both unfair and unreasonable that anyone would fail to, or not be allowed to, embrace it fully and achieve full exaltation. My own position has modified somewhat during the course of the conversation, but IMO I believe that whie it may be reasonable to believe that everyone has the opportunity for exaltation, given what we know what Jesus has done for us, it's not reasonable to believe that everyone will choose to accept it, given what we know about human behavior!

We believe in a God who will take every aspect of our individual lives into account in the final judgement. Where we've been confused, he will give understanding, decieved, he will give truth, ignorant, he will give knowledge. If we have sined, He has given us the gift of repentence, and in all our shortcomings he has given us the Atonement of His Only Begotton Son, Jesus Christ! Yes, we believe that certain "works" are required on our part to obtain all of these things in their fulness, including baptisim, the laying on of hands for the gift of The Holy Ghost, and the Temple ordenences. But inasmuch as most of the world has never had the opportunity to recieve these ordenences, He has give us the power and authority to perform them in behalf of those who have died without them. This so that all of mankind can recieve everything that our loving Heavenly Father wants them to have!

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotton son, that whosoever believeth in him should have everlasting life, John 3;16

We do not believe that after sending the Lord to be tortured to death, for our salvation, that He would then send more then 75% of the people into the world, to be condemed to burn forever in a firery hell, simply for the sin of being born! You would have all those poor souls who have been " decieved, confused, and ignorant", in this world concined to an everlasting punishment, even those who called upon Jesus, but not in the right manner, without any recourse, and call that justice! You can preach a God of hellfire and damnation, and call Him a loving God. We preach a loving God, who seeks to love us into heaven, not frighten us there!

Mike

[Zakuska]

Thats not what Jesus said.

Mat 7

21 ? Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 ? Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. <A name=28> 28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: 29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Context, context, context determines the meaningof the passage. this passage does not begin with verse 21.

You don't say!

Go back to chapter 5 to find the context of this passage. this passage is part of the Sermon on the Mount that Jesus delivered. Jesus was instructing the multitude of Jews in view of His announcement of the coming kingdom (4:17. This message showed how a person who is "already saved" and in a right relationship with God through faith alone should conduct himself in his life). Jesus is not tell us how to be saved.

I was unaware that any of these people where "already saved". Paul had seen the Lord Jesus Christ in vision and was sent on a mission... and he still didn't consider himself.... "Saved?".

Philip. 3: 12, 16

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

And where again does Jesus mention heaven? or eternity? or the afterlife? Your only possibility could be kingdom of heaven, which we know from the other gospels is equal to kingdom of God. Can you show that either/both of these is the afterlife?

And the kingdom of God is what?

This earth life? Were do you get that idea?

Couldn't make the classic "Jesus was talking to the Jews" stick so now you have moved it to the "What does the kingdom of God/Hevean mean" line.

How can one be saved if they do not belong to the kingdom of God?

Can you show that either/both of these is not the afterlife?

[Jason]

So,

1. Why does a man receive less/more reward for that which he has no power over? (Birth place, physical/mental ailments, the deception/confusion inflicted by others.)

2. Why does not every man receive his inevitable testimony of Christ sooner, rather than much later, so that he may receive celestial glory?

3. Why does a finite amount of time have any relevance to an infinite amount of reward? Why not give everyone all of the infinite amount of "pros" and "cons" so every man has an unbiased and proper choice?

I have not read the other seven pages, so forgive me if these points have already been covered, but these are my answers:

1. No man (or woman) receives a lesser or greater reward because of circumstances that they had no power over. The circumstances of ones birth/ailments/actions of others are perfectly accounted for in the final reckoning, and a man's final reward is based entirely on what he did have control over. Short-lived children and the mentally deficient who cannot be held accountable for their actions in this life are judged by their actions prior to receiving mortality and receive their rewards based on their actions.

2. Because not all are deserving or capable of receiving Celestial glory. Forcing everyone to receive a Celestial glory is impossible, even for God. Mortality is required to prepare us to receive a Celestial glory, and we can't "skip it" and be properly prepared.

3. The finite time we spend here is representative of our eternal potential. It is a tiny sample taken out of our infinite existence, but God ensures that our circumstances are such that it is perfectly representative. The "pros" and "cons" given to each man (or woman) are what God in his foresight knows is required to make their sample truly representative of the individual - to give each a true test.

To put it simply: what we do in this life reveals our eternal character, and longer or shorter testing would not change the results.

[Montgomery Price]

Let me ask you again...is there any confustion in your mind about what the consequences would be if you murdered someone? Not just killing in self defense, but killing to get gain. Do you feel that you are not informed enough about the consequences of murder, both in the temporal and eternal sense, that if you committed murder you can claim "I didn't understand that murder is bad" and be justified in you actions?

What leads you to believe that any of the examples I provided was a result of confusion, ignorance or deception? Besides the premise you set forth of course.

All of the examples I gave were adults, grown men who had been taught right and wrong all their lives, and some of them were even in charge of handing down judgments to others. To make the claim that these men were ignorant or confused, is ignorance in itself. One can only be deceived if they first set aside what they already understand, in which case, they choose to deny their own understanding.

It is safe to say that most of those who murder accept the risk of temporal consequence. Now, temporally minded, for someone to kill another human being, solely for gain, holds a great risk and consequence. But, this doesn't stop them, so what are they confused about? They aren't confused when they think "I know murder is bad", they are confused when they think "I want to do it, regardless, and will deliberately act in spite of my knowledge."

But, It is safe to say (granting the Mormon faith as true), that they are confused, ignorant, or deceived about eternal consequence or certain spiritual consequence. Definitely.

I am led to believe that all of the examples you've given are the results of confusion for these same reasons. Just replace "murder" with any other act deemed immoral by the mormon church.

And the grown men who act in spite of their understanding, are confusing themselves. They are willfully ignoring their understanding. They are deceived. When they made the choice that knowingly or unknowingly led them to confusion, they were at that moment, also confused.

[Montgomery Price]

I have not read the other seven pages, so forgive me if these points have already been covered, but these are my answers:

1. No man (or woman) receives a lesser or greater reward because of circumstances that they had no power over. The circumstances of ones birth/ailments/actions of others are perfectly accounted for in the final reckoning, and a man's final reward is based entirely on what he did have control over. Short-lived children and the mentally deficient who cannot be held accountable for their actions in this life are judged by their actions prior to receiving mortality and receive their rewards based on their actions.

But, we come to earth to know the difference between good and evil, and this seems to be a requirement for every soul. But, why are some souls sent straight to the celestial kingdom? Why are some taken before they are accountable?

If we have to grow on earth, why don't they grow here? Is it possible to grow spiritually in the celestial kingdom, or after-life?

2. Because not all are deserving or capable of receiving Celestial glory. Forcing everyone to receive a Celestial glory is impossible, even for God. Mortality is required to prepare us to receive a Celestial glory, and we can't "skip it" and be properly prepared.

But, every man would work for the celestial kingdom if they were given sufficient pros + cons. Everyone would make the choice to repent, and then grow spiritually to attain ultimate exaltation. There would be no forcing what so ever. It would just be giving all the information in a completely fair manner, and allowing everyone to choose.

We can know morality as well. Difference between good and evil.

3. The finite time we spend here is representative of our eternal potential. It is a tiny sample taken out of our infinite existence, but God ensures that our circumstances are such that it is perfectly representative. The "pros" and "cons" given to each man (or woman) are what God in his foresight knows is required to make their sample truly representative of the individual - to give each a true test.

To put it simply: what we do in this life reveals our eternal character, and longer or shorter testing would not change the results.

Well, this choice of God's is obviously not good enough, because the pros + cons aren't sufficient to let us understand the best choice is to work for the celestial kingdom, and we will exercise free-will to do so.

[Jason]

But, we come to earth to know the difference between good and evil, and this seems to be a requirement for every soul. But, why are some souls sent straight to the celestial kingdom? Why are some taken before they are accountable?

Some learned the difference sufficiently before experiencing mortality, and thus did not have to have 8 or more years of mortality to explore it further.

Jesus is the prime example - he became divine before his Earth life.

If we have to grow on earth, why don't they grow here?

We are not them. What you need from your Earth life is different from what someone who dies as a child needed.

Is it possible to grow spiritually in the celestial kingdom, or after-life?

Yes. We know that people will be given the opportunity to repent and accept the gospel in the after-life, but only before the day of judgement.

Part of the point of entering the Celestial kingdom is to enjoy eternal increase and progression, so it's safe to say that spiritual growth will be experienced there.

Spiritual growth may be possible in the lesser kingdoms, but meeting the conditions to enter the Celestial kingdom will no longer be possible for those assigned to a lesser kingdom. Not because they will be barred from doing so, but because they cannot do so, even given infinite time.

But, every man would work for the celestial kingdom if they were given sufficient pros + cons.

Every man? Satan and a third of the host of heaven disagreed with you. They understood the true situation and God's character better than we possibly can during this life and they chose not to work towards the Celestial kingdom.

Before you ask: No, I don't think there is much logic to this choice, but then I didn't choose to follow Satan's path in the pre-existence, and neither had anyone else you have met during this life.

The entire sample of humanity that we have to base our judgements on what people will and won't choose is only 2/3rds of the total, and it's the 2/3rds that made a specific initial choice.

We can know morality as well. Difference between good and evil.

Reading a dictionary definition is quite different from actual experience.

If you had never ridden a bike, could you read instructions on how to do so and then instantly join the Tour de France?

Well, this choice of God's is obviously not good enough, because the pros + cons aren't sufficient to let us understand the best choice is to work for the celestial kingdom, and we will exercise free-will to do so.

They are sufficient for those who have it in them to make the choices necessary to live a Celestial-worthy life. They are of course insufficient to force anyone to live a Celestial-worthy life.

[CV75]

They are willfully ignoring their understanding.

This gets to why simply understanding (even all the pros and cons) is not all it takes to choose eternal life. The will is more powerful.

[Flyonthewall]

It is safe to say that most of those who murder accept the risk of temporal consequence. Now, temporally minded, for someone to kill another human being, solely for gain, holds a great risk and consequence. But, this doesn't stop them, so what are they confused about? They aren't confused when they think "I know murder is bad", they are confused when they think "I want to do it, regardless, and will deliberately act in spite of my knowledge."

But, It is safe to say (granting the Mormon faith as true), that they are confused, ignorant, or deceived about eternal consequence or certain spiritual consequence. Definitely.

I am led to believe that all of the examples you've given are the results of confusion for these same reasons. Just replace "murder" with any other act deemed immoral by the mormon church.

And the grown men who act in spite of their understanding, are confusing themselves. They are willfully ignoring their understanding. They are deceived. When they made the choice that knowingly or unknowingly led them to confusion, they were at that moment, also confused.

Sounds an awful lot like the insanity defense....

Judge: Counsel...How does your client plead to murder?

Lawyer: Not guilty by reason of insanity your honor

Judge: How did you come to that conclusion?

Lawyer: Well...anyone would have to be crazy to murder someone, so my client was obviously insane.

In you premise, there is not a soul that ever lived or is living or will live, that can be held accountable for anything they could do that would keep them out of the Celestial Kingdom. If someone confuses themself or willfully ignores their own understanding they are blameless? Not accountable?

Again I say that your premise is flawed. We are judged by our own understanding of right and wrong and how we act within that understanding. If one ignores his own understanding, then the full weight of accountability will be had on that person's shoulders if they do not repent.

[Hoops22]

And the kingdom of God is what?

This earth life? Were do you get that idea?

Couldn't make the classic "Jesus was talking to the Jews" stick so now you have moved it to the "What does the kingdom of God/Hevean mean" line.

How can one be saved if they do not belong to the kingdom of God?

Can you show that either/both of these is not the afterlife?

I asked if you can show that the kingdom of God/Heaven is where we go (saved) when we die. Can you do that?

Here are some verses that might help you understand where i'm coming from.

will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.

44 "In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

50Now there was a man named Joseph, a member of the Council, a good and upright man, 51who had not consented to their decision and action. He came from the Judean town of Arimathea and he was waiting for the kingdom of God

28You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

6So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

And then there's the Lord's prayer, which I'm sure you know.

[Hoops22]

And the kingdom of God is what?

This earth life? Were do you get that idea?

I don't know. It's not an idea I've entertained.

Couldn't make the classic "Jesus was talking to the Jews" stick so now you have moved it to the "What does the kingdom of God/Hevean mean" line.

Well, he was talking to the Jews. Can you show otherwise? Because the scripture specifically tells us that is His audience.

How can one be saved if they do not belong to the kingdom of God?

What is the kingdom of God?

Can you show that either/both of these is not the afterlife?

I have shown, and can further show, that the Kingdom of God is the literal reign of Christ, with Him on His throne. NOt Christ reigning in our hearts, not Christ ruling over the church, as some would like to have us believe, but the verses and their supporting verses point to a literal reign of Christ over earthly kingdoms. The church is the mechanism by which gentiles are able to participate in this reign with HIm.