The Problem of Salvation

[Montgomery Price]

They do not have to understand the Celestial Kingdom. All they have to do is understand that Jesus is Lord. If they understand that, then they will believe His words. If they believe His words, then they will believe the rewards that He has promised.

Your angle seems to be that people will only work there butts off for a reward, and not out of love for the Savior. I say your angle is flawed. The understanding one must have is Jesus is the Christ, and of His teachings. Everything else is how we excercise our faith. We do not have to have an understanding of the CK...Jesus has already laid it out for us....damnation = bad, joint heirs with Christ = good. Very plain. It is man's desire for rewards now verses rewards later that trips them up.

This is not my view point. This is me arguing within the assumptions of several different contradicting view points given to me by several different persons on this forum. I tend to ask for one persons view point, and then grant them that assumptions, and argue accordingly.

If someone understands that to follow Christ is the best choice, then why would anyone choose not to follow him?

If they don't, then they do not understand.

"If they understand that, then they will believe His words. If they believe His words, then they will believe the rewards that He has promised."

Yes, and they will work their butts off.

So, if someone is not working their butts off, then they do not understand what is "very plain".

[DLClark]

the true and only creator god of the Bible has provided a way for all men to be saved but not all will accept it. Romans tells us in chapter 3:23 and chapter 5 that all men are are sinners before God and guilty. Romans i tells us that there is a enough in creation to know that thereis a God. but becuae of sin refuse to believe. All men are guilty before a holy. If you truely understnd the sinfulness of man vs the holiness of god you never believe that a lost person who has never heard will get another chance. Many of us already have a chance to believe but refuse to do so. Why do you think mankind has a natural propencity to worship something? It is because God has place in man the need to woship something. All men do worship something. If not the Creator God of the Bible then something else. The Bible says thisProv 14:12

12 There is a way which seems right to a man,

But its end is the way of death.

NASU

Prov 16:25

25 There is a way which seems right to a man,

But its end is the way of death.

NASU

Gal 1:6-9

I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

NASU

Here is Gospel message that Paul preached 1 Cor 15:1-5

Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

NASU

Notice the absence of a burning in the bosom, joining a church, being baptized, or doing good works. Paul says that salvation is based on what a person will do with Christ in faith. Faith alone saves and lack of faith condemns.

John 3:16-19

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 " He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. NASU

[mrmendoza]

Again, your metaphor is not adequate.

You seem to have stacked the deck here! There are no earthly metaphors that that can adequately streach to eternity!

We can only express our views as best as we can with what we've got! Our scriptures tell us to apply the scriptures to ourselves for understanding, and that's what I'm trying to do. Yet you take principles for which you don't even have a foundational belief in, and then seek to aply them to an eternity which you also don't believe in!

Could you interpret these verses for me, and how they apply.

I thought that they were pretty clear, but what they are saying is pretty much what I've been saying. That type of person who would delibratly choose evil in this life, is just an evil person, and must take his punishment (Which includes eternal separation from God), and this is according to the justice that God Himself must obey, or He would cease to be God!

You keep saying that God isn't being fair, but the fact is fairness isn't what you're asking for here, what you're asking would undermine the fundemental foundation of the CK in that no unclean thing can inter into it! I don't know what psyscology you're using, but the sad fact is, is that some people are just evil by nature and will never cahnge! They must not be allowed in the CK or they would corrupt it!

Yes, I agree. I am an atheist.

It may be more "just" or "merciful" than other views, but I don't see how this holds any relevance.

You're right! None of this holds any relevance to you. You chide me for saying this is speculative, but since you don't even believe in God, what is to you but an academic exersise? I say speculative because I believe in the foundational precepts of the Gospel. You claimed that you had support for your views, but the fact is that you, having no faith at all, have no support ay all!

mike

[DLClark]

How do you know that if you work for the third heaven that you are doing enough to merit being with God?

[Flyonthewall]

This is not my view point. This is me arguing within the assumptions of several different contradicting view points given to me by several different persons on this forum. I tend to ask for one persons view point, and then grant them that assumptions, and argue accordingly.

If you believe that nobody makes a bad decision if they understand the consequences, then I don't believe your view point is valid then, and no argument within the bounds that you set forth will work.

If someone understands that to follow Christ is the best choice, then why would anyone choose not to follow him?

If they don't, then they do not understand.

I don't believe this at all. Someone can go against what they understand to be right, because of the lure of a reward...an immediate reward. Jails are full of people like this.

"If they understand that, then they will believe His words. If they believe His words, then they will believe the rewards that He has promised."

Yes, and they will work their butts off.

So, if someone is not working their butts off, then they do not understand what is "very plain".

I don't subscribe to that view point at all. People make decisions that go against what they understand to be right or true , all the time. There are many people out there commiting crimes that "don't ever want to go back to prison". They understand that crime will put them back in prison, but they commit crimes anyway.

The assumptions you put on your arguments do not hold water in real life.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

How do you know that if you work for the third heaven that you are doing enough to merit being with God?

That question does not have any relavance to what we are discussing.

Since when did the 3rd hevean = bing with God, can you find me a passage that says so? What is the purpose for a 1st 2nd and 3rd hevean? Do you even know?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Here is Gospel message that Paul preached 1 Cor 15:1-5

Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

NASU

Notice the absence of a burning in the bosom, joining a church, being baptized, or doing good works. Paul says that salvation is based on what a person will do with Christ in faith. Faith alone saves and lack of faith condemns.

John 3:16-19

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 " He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. NASU

Thank goodness we have more than Pauls words. and it is a total straw man to assert that one has to have a burning of the bosom to be saved. Bapstism is a requirement per Jesus. We must be born of the water and of the spirit. If you insist that being born of the water is birth why would Christ mention such a reduntant thing. Being born of the water is baptism per Peter when he claimed that "even now baptism doth now save us".

Christ set up his church when he was here sorry the bible disgrees with your "Pauline" gospel. I should say EV gospel instead of Paul, if all we had were Pauls words you would have a point in your theology but in order to believe what you do you must through out other books in the bible such as James and Peter and even the very words of Chrsit. Good luck with that. Why did Christ tell his apostles to teach the world of him and baptising all nation? What is the point of that command if it is just as suggestion as you seem to imply.

Also LDS are saved by your definition of salvation as we have faith in Christ that he is our savior and will save us from our sins. You act as though we are unfamilar wit the bible.

[mfbukowski]

deleted

[mrmendoza]

You know, I think you're right, My metaphors don't quite cut it. So, let's try a different one. A marathon run! Especially one for a cause of some sort. While it's true, somebody comes in "first" and may get some recognition for it, the object for most of the runners is simply to finish! If you have run more then one marathon you might try to beat your own best time, but there are no real loosers either. You either keep going untill you reach the end, or you colapse before you get there, or you just quit before you get there! The goal is not to beat anybody else, it's just to get there!

As I see it then, being more "capable" per say is not what will keep one from the CK. The rules are set and are the same for everybody. The lord has told us that there is nobody who is not "capable" of obtaining the Kingdom, if they just keep doing their best thruogh the end! Through the Atonement of Christ, if you fall down along the way, as it were, and then call on Him (Repent) He picks you up and helps you get back on your feet. He even is willing to prop you up throught the entire run (Through the Holy Ghost!), if you're willing to continue. In that respect, you have to say that He's stacked the deck in your favor. But the road is still extremly tough, and Saten is constantly throwing up roadblocks. He makes it easy to lose your way, and entices you with what seems an easier way. We don't teach that you will immediately go to the CK from the spirit world, even if you do accept the gospel. I don't think I've ever heard anything "oficial" about that, but even so there isn't anything that I've heard that would allow a person to go from the Telestial Kingdom to the Celestial Kingdom. At the same time I have seen commentaries from some people who seem to think that that's a distinct possability!

In which case you may be in some respect right about the whole thing! As Ive said before, it's all speculative, but I'm not going to give you any points because of you're attitude! First off it would seem that you think, based on whatever you've either been told ,or read, or both that there is no progression from the lower kingdoms to a higher one. This is in accordence to what I've always understood also, I've also considered this as fair a way of doing things as need be, based on what I've tried to get accross on my other post. You on the other hand, don't think it's fair to punish the sinner because you have this elevated idea of man that he will always choose the right, given the necessary instructions and understanding. It seems to me that the rebellion of Saten and a third of the host of heaven should pretty much disprove that theory. After all, they are all our spirit brothers and sisters!

We were all told that, under Gods plan we all could achieve the ultimate reward. We were all with God in the CK at the time, and yet a third of us not only refused the chance, but sought to overthrow God Himself!

Then there's your attitude that God should lower the bar so that decieved, confused and ignorent souls, like yourself, could be guarenteed a seat on the throne! If you claimed a belief in God I would have to add the word arrogant, but since you don't believe what's apparent to most of us I guess the other three adjectives pretty much sums it up!

Mike

[mfbukowski]

I still don't see how any of your responses where relevant to this argument. I'll be happy if you could show me. I'm not being a "know-it-all", I've just yet to be shown any thing.

Please, these did not address my point.

My point is not that "accepting Christ automatically brings understanding".

This was one of the things I dealt with on page 1. I dealt with it. I changed my argument.

My point is, and has always been: If you don't work for the celestial kingdom, then you do not understand why it's the best and most beneficial choice.

Whether or not this understanding is attained through accepting Christ or working to an understanding is irrelevant that this point. After we continue, I will bring it up again. Your replies do not deal with this argument yet. Do you see this now?

So, first we need to establish that if a person understands the celestial kingdom they will choose to work for it. They know why it is infinitely more beneficial than any other choice, and consequently, a person is infinitely likely to choose it.

Do you agree?

Well frankly I think this is totally incoherent.

First you change your argument. This should be about what you believe- it you just change it at will, you are playing games. Go back to your video games and don't waste my time.

The statement that if a person understand the celestial kingdom, they will choose to work for it, is clearly not true. And it is a statement, not an "argument".

So evidently you are saying that you do not understand the celestial kingdom, because you are not working for it.

If that is the case, I have no clue what you are doing here or what your "argument" is. It is all a waste of time.

The notion is just silly that if you understand the ck you will work for it. I don't even know what that means.

Who DOES "understand" the ck with a perfect understanding anyway? How do you know it exists? How could anyone except God "understand" it?

Clearly none of us understand it, and clearly many people work to attain it. And the implication is that you personally do understand it but are not working for it since you are an atheist.

Go back to your video games.

I know. Your usual reply will be as always: I don't understand your argument

That's because you don't have one.

[mfbukowski]

double post

[Montgomery Price]

If you believe that nobody makes a bad decision if they understand the consequences, then I don't believe your view point is valid then, and no argument within the bounds that you set forth will work.

Why would anyone ever not pick the infinitely more beneficial choice, if they knew that it was the infinitely more beneficial choice? I don't think too many people on here understand the idea of infinity.

I don't believe this at all. Someone can go against what they understand to be right, because of the lure of a reward...an immediate reward. Jails are full of people like this.

I'm sorry, again... A person that takes the "lure of immediate reward" does not understand the reward they are neglecting. If they understood the ultimate reward, they would know that picking an immediate reward over a long term reward is comparable to picking to smoke while you're a developing teenager instead of keeping the rewards of health in to adulthood. (And any other adequate metaphor.)

I don't subscribe to that view point at all. People make decisions that go against what they understand to be right or true , all the time. There are many people out there commiting crimes that "don't ever want to go back to prison". They understand that crime will put them back in prison, but they commit crimes anyway.

The assumptions you put on your arguments do not hold water in real life.

At all? They are your own words.

"They do not have to understand the Celestial Kingdom. All they have to do is understand that Jesus is Lord. If they understand that, then they will believe His words. If they believe His words, then they will believe the rewards that He has promised.

Your angle seems to be that people will only work there butts off for a reward, and not out of love for the Savior. I say your angle is flawed. The understanding one must have is Jesus is the Christ, and of His teachings. Everything else is how we excercise our faith. We do not have to have an understanding of the CK...Jesus has already laid it out for us....damnation = bad, joint heirs with Christ = good. Very plain. It is man's desire for rewards now verses rewards later that trips them up."

If someone believes the reward, then they will know that it's better than all the other choices by an infinite amount.

A person who commits a crime has to accept a certain risk. See, the reason people still commit crimes is precisely for that reason: A risk means that there is a possibility, and for some people, the possibility of reward outweighs the risk.

Except when you understand the ultimate and infinite reward, you understand that there are no risks. There's nothing to worry about. Every other choice besides it, holds a risk, but ultimate exaltation holds none.

So, would someone still commit a crime if they fully understood that it definitely lead him to jail, regardless of risk?

Do you see what this understanding entails?

[Montgomery Price]

You seem to have stacked the deck here! There are no earthly metaphors that that can adequately streach to eternity!

We can only express our views as best as we can with what we've got! Our scriptures tell us to apply the scriptures to ourselves for understanding, and that's what I'm trying to do. Yet you take principles for which you don't even have a foundational belief in, and then seek to aply them to an eternity which you also don't believe in!

Why is it that when I bring an understanding between me and another person on this forum, and they get my argument... They just say "You don't believe in this, so why are we talking about it?"

Which is honestly just a cop-out.

You may believe that you don't need to talk to me anymore, but it's still a cop-out.

If God knew that we couldn't understand infinity, then he would never say "infinite" reward, just the "best" reward. I think there's a very good reason for including this word (and others like it) in any of the gospels thousands of times.

I think that we have enough of an understanding of infinity to construct arguments. To not indulge in such thinking is, I think, willful ignorance.

I thought that they were pretty clear, but what they are saying is pretty much what I've been saying. That type of person who would delibratly choose evil in this life, is just an evil person, and must take his punishment (Which includes eternal separation from God), and this is according to the justice that God Himself must obey, or He would cease to be God!

You keep saying that God isn't being fair, but the fact is fairness isn't what you're asking for here, what you're asking would undermine the fundemental foundation of the CK in that no unclean thing can inter into it! I don't know what psyscology you're using, but the sad fact is, is that some people are just evil by nature and will never cahnge! They must not be allowed in the CK or they would corrupt it!

My idea of ultimate fairness would be giving the opportunity to become truly good. No one is going to trick God and get in to the CK, because God knows what's in their hearts. So, if God would give those evil people who are doomed to be evil, an opportunity to become better, and have the opportunity to earn salvation like everyone else. No unclean thing will enter in to the CK, and everyone will have the proper opportunity to grow, instead of being in a system that dooms them to a lack of accomplishment.

Does someone choose to become evil in preexistence?

If they do, isn't this a choice made out of confusion, ignorance, or deception?

You're right! None of this holds any relevance to you. You chide me for saying this is speculative, but since you don't even believe in God, what is to you but an academic exersise? I say speculative because I believe in the foundational precepts of the Gospel. You claimed that you had support for your views, but the fact is that you, having no faith at all, have no support ay all!

mike

This is academic exercise. But, just because I don't believe in these views, doesn't mean that I can't argue about them. Because, I once did believe in these things, and I try my best to understand each of your views (everyone on this forum), and grant you these assumptions.

I can support myself without faith. What if I said you can't argue with me, because you don't have faith in my world view?

You know, I think you're right, My metaphors don't quite cut it. So, let's try a different one. A marathon run! Especially one for a cause of some sort. While it's true, somebody comes in "first" and may get some recognition for it, the object for most of the runners is simply to finish! If you have run more then one marathon you might try to beat your own best time, but there are no real loosers either. You either keep going untill you reach the end, or you colapse before you get there, or you just quit before you get there! The goal is not to beat anybody else, it's just to get there!

But, there are still several problems.

As I see it then, being more "capable" per say is not what will keep one from the CK. The rules are set and are the same for everybody. The lord has told us that there is nobody who is not "capable" of obtaining the Kingdom, if they just keep doing their best thruogh the end!

This is a direct contradiction of what you've told me earlier.

"I think that as much as we like to think that we're all as capable everyone else, that's not really how it is!"

and

"You seem to think that ultimatly, we are all equal. I don't think that that's true! No matter how much we understand, we're just not going to be able to achieve it."

Through the Atonement of Christ, if you fall down along the way, as it were, and then call on Him (Repent) He picks you up and helps you get back on your feet. He even is willing to prop you up throught the entire run (Through the Holy Ghost!), if you're willing to continue.

Then why can't he help evil people improve? Why are some doomed to a lack of acheivment, when they are capable of becoming pure with God's help? God helps others who are willing... so why wouldn't he help an evil person? Becuase they're not willing, right?

Well, they're only unwilling, because they don't understand. They're confused, ignorant, or deceived. This is not their fault, because they lack understanding when they become confused.

In that respect, you have to say that He's stacked the deck in your favor. But the road is still extremly tough, and Saten is constantly throwing up roadblocks. He makes it easy to lose your way, and entices you with what seems an easier way.

The people that fall at these roadblocks are deceived. When someone is deceived, they are unaware of it. How is this their fault if they are unaware of deception?

Because they chose to open themselves to deception? Well, isn't this because they lacked understanding, and were confused or ignorant and unaware of it?

We don't teach that you will immediately go to the CK from the spirit world, even if you do accept the gospel. I don't think I've ever heard anything "oficial" about that, but even so there isn't anything that I've heard that would allow a person to go from the Telestial Kingdom to the Celestial Kingdom. At the same time I have seen commentaries from some people who seem to think that that's a distinct possability!

In which case you may be in some respect right about the whole thing! As Ive said before, it's all speculative, but I'm not going to give you any points because of you're attitude!

Attitude? What attitude? I don't see any attitude. Show me my own words if I've missed it.

First off it would seem that you think, based on whatever you've either been told ,or read, or both that there is no progression from the lower kingdoms to a higher one. This is in accordence to what I've always understood also, I've also considered this as fair a way of doing things as need be, based on what I've tried to get accross on my other post. You on the other hand, don't think it's fair to punish the sinner because you have this elevated idea of man that he will always choose the right, given the necessary instructions and understanding.

I make an effort to understand another's understanding when I don't hold their faith. I only grant someone's assumptions because otherwise, there would be nothing to talk about, because most of a Mormon's belief is based on pure faith.

"this elevated idea of man that he will always choose the right, given the necessary instructions and understanding."

I still hold this conviction, and there hasn't been anyone who has proven it false.

It seems to me that the rebellion of Saten and a third of the host of heaven should pretty much disprove that theory. After all, they are all our spirit brothers and sisters!

The third of the host of heaven rejected the plan of salvation because they lacked understanding of it's superiority. They were confused, ignorant, or deceived. They did not know good from evil. They didn't trust in the plan of salvation, because they didn't understand that choosing Satan will ultimately lead to sadness and loss of free-will. This is why understanding is so important.

We were all told that, under Gods plan we all could achieve the ultimate reward. We were all with God in the CK at the time, and yet a third of us not only refused the chance, but sought to overthrow God Himself!

They didn't understand that God is all-powerful, and can't be overthrown by anyone. Any enemy of God is an enemy who will always fail. In the Bible, God mocks his enemies because he knows that any enemy of God is powerless against him.

Then there's your attitude that God should lower the bar so that decieved, confused and ignorent souls, like yourself, could be guarenteed a seat on the throne! If you claimed a belief in God I would have to add the word arrogant, but since you don't believe what's apparent to most of us I guess the other three adjectives pretty much sums it up!

Mike

I have my reasons, and I think we have enough to talk about. But, if I did have faith in your beliefs, I would still be upset with them, for the very same reasons I'm arguing here.

[Montgomery Price]

Well frankly I think this is totally incoherent.

Yet, you've failed to explain the fallacy, or demonstrate why it is incoherent.

First you change your argument. This should be about what you believe- it you just change it at will, you are playing games. Go back to your video games and don't waste my time.

Video games? Please, I don't attempt to insult your personal life. Do you even know if I play video games? Isn't this bearing false witness?

I'll tell you exactly why I change my argument.

It's because I'm not Mormon. I need to ask everyone here to explain their beliefs, and then I grant them those assumptions. I present an argument, all of you correct my lack of doctrinal knowledge, and so I change my argument because before... I didn't understand what any of you believed.

If you can see that I don't believe in any of this, then you can understand why I keep changing my arguments, because people keep telling me I've got their beliefs wrong. So, I change it after they prove my assumptions false. So, please, explain to my why my argument is incoherent.

The statement that if a person understand the celestial kingdom, they will choose to work for it, is clearly not true. And it is a statement, not an "argument".

Clearly? Can you explain this assertion? And it is an argument. It argues that the plan of salvation is flawed.

So evidently you are saying that you do not understand the celestial kingdom, because you are not working for it.

If I "said" that, I would be doing so under the assumption that God exists and he has a plan of salvation. Which personally, I do not believe. So, when I "say" that, I am granting the assumption, not condoning or participating in the assumption.

If that is the case, I have no clue what you are doing here or what your "argument" is. It is all a waste of time.

The notion is just silly that if you understand the ck you will work for it. I don't even know what that means.

Who DOES "understand" the ck with a perfect understanding anyway? How do you know it exists? How could anyone except God "understand" it?

You still have done nothing but "say" it's silly. You haven't "shown" why it's silly.

It doesn't have to be a perfect understanding, just an adequate one.

I don't believe the celestial kingdom actually exists, but I grant the assumption for argument, and base the argument on the understanding of the celestial kingdom based on what all of you tell me, and what I can learn from the church.

If we grant the assumption that the CK exists, and that Mormons understand it, and therefore work for it, then Mormons understand it and know why they should work for it.

Clearly none of us understand it, and clearly many people work to attain it. And the implication is that you personally do understand it but are not working for it since you are an atheist.

Clearly, the people who work for it understand it. If someone works for it, but does not understand it.. Then why work for it other than a blind lack of understanding? And again, that implication is only granted as long as I grant the assumption.

Go back to your video games.

I know. Your usual reply will be as always: I don't understand your argument

That's because you don't have one.

Again, with the personal insults. Do you want me to insult you?

I have an argument, that you have not addressed. You've only asserted that it's "silly" and "incoherent" and "makes no sense", but you haven't actually supported these assertions.

To personally insult me, and to claim that "I have no reason to be here" are not arguments against my own.

I'm not going to claim that you are attempting to avoid my arguments. I'll only mention that it is a common tactic to attack the messenger and ignore the message, when you can see that you won't like it. Would you like to be construed this way?

If not, then please stop acting this way.

Now, since you have no problem making a prediction about me, I'll make on about you.

You will select any or all of the following 4 choices:

1. Personally insult me.

2. Attack me, and not my argument.

3. Assert that my arguments are fallacies, but care not to demonstrate or explain.

4. Claim that because I lack faith in what I am arguing about, this somehow deems me unqualified to debate.

Remember, if you pick number 4, this also means you are unqualified to debate my own beliefs, because you're not an atheist.

But, if you wish to use any of these 4 choices to bring our discussion to a final halt, then you can do so at any time. You may have the last word, if you so desire vengeance.

[mfbukowski]

Yet, you've failed to explain the fallacy, or demonstrate why it is incoherent.

Please state your argument once all in one place in the following format

I will try to do it for you, though I still do not understand it, because you STILL have not stated an argument.

THIS IS THE FORM OF AN ARGUMENT:

Premises:

People work to achieve something good.

People will work for longer term-good over a shorter- term good if they understand that the long term good is greater

Mormons believe that achieving the celestial kingdom is the greatest good they can achieve

Therefore (conclusion) Mormons will work for the longer term good of achieving the ck, forgoing shorter term goods.

Either the argument will work or it won't and we might have something to discuss.

If you do not do this, we will have nothing further to discuss.

Can you see now how the statement "if a person understand the celestial kingdom, they will choose to work for it" is not an argument which disproves the plan of salvation?

The statement does not even mention the plan of salvation- how is it an argument against it?

[Montgomery Price]

Please state your argument once all in one place in the following format

I will try to do it for you, though I still do not understand it, because you STILL have not stated an argument.

THIS IS THE FORM OF AN ARGUMENT:

Premises:

People work to achieve something good.

People will work for longer term-good over a shorter- term good if they understand that the long term good is greater

Mormons believe that achieving the celestial kingdom is the greatest good they can achieve

Therefore (conclusion) Mormons will work for the longer term good of achieving the ck, forgoing shorter term goods.

Either the argument will work or it won't and we might have something to discuss.

If you do not do this, we will have nothing further to discuss.

Can you see now how the statement "if a person understand the celestial kingdom, they will choose to work for it" is not an argument which disproves the plan of salvation?

The statement does not even mention the plan of salvation- how is it an argument against it?

It's a premise. I was stopping, waiting for you to agree or disagree.

And I'd also like to add... Even though I consider it a premise. I am led to believe that you consider it an argument, because you have disagreed several times when I've brought up these points and others similar:

"The whole point is that not everyone wants to do the work that it will take to achieve the CK."

"Not everyone wants to work hard enough to reach celestial glory"

"But there are a hundred reasons for not attaining the goal."

"Therefore it is possible to know that Jesus is the Christ and not go to the celestial kingdom because you have not perfected yourself, or even want to."

The "understanding" here is so important, and that's what I've been trying to portray. The people who "don't work" do not understand, I argue.

"So, first we need to establish that if a person understands the celestial kingdom they will choose to work for it. They know why it is infinitely more beneficial than any other choice, and consequently, a person is infinitely likely to choose it.

Do you agree?"

[mrmendoza]

You said;

Why is it that when I bring an understanding between me and another person on this forum, and they get my argument... They just say "You don't believe in this, so why are we talking about it?"

I?m only saying that niether your nor my metaphors are going to be adequate for eternity.

You may believe that you don't need to talk to me anymore, but it's still a cop-out.

I?m not saying that we don?t need to talk, only that if you won?t accept my metaphors then we?ll never come to an understanding!

If God knew that we couldn't understand infinity, then he would never say "infinite" reward, just the "best" reward. I think there's a very good reason for including this word (and others like it) in any of the gospels thousands of times.

I think that we have enough of an understanding of infinity to construct arguments. To not indulge in such thinking is, I think, willful ignorance.

O k, but isn?t that the same thing as speculating?

Does someone choose to become evil in preexistence?

It appears that Satan and his followers did!

If they do, isn't this a choice made out of confusion, ignorance, or deception?

My understanding is, that in the preexsistence there were no real choices to be made except whether or not to accept Heavenly Fathers plan. When we saw what the ultimate reward was, most of us, choose the plan, in the hopes of attaining it, but when we got here, we were suddenly showered with a plethora of choices. Our bodies demanded instant gratifacation, and Satan, now firmly entrenched here, was more then happy to provide that gratifacation! Our memories of the preexistence was erased to protect us from having the ability to sin against ?perfect knowledge? for which there could be no forgivness, and our true selves would be made manifest by how we dealt with our circumstances. We believe that God will not judge us unjustly. He will take into account all the circumstances of our lives. Those who received more will have more to account for then those who had no law given, and all the bad things that may have happened in what for many is a miserable life, will also be taken into account. Try to understand that inasmuch as God did not create us from nothing , we?re His spirit children, our proclivaties to do good or evil were always a part of our being! Just as our tendencies to always take the easier path, or even laziness. We came here to see if we could overcome those bad proclivaties. Through the atonement of Christ, as I explain in my last post He has given us all the help He possably can, without stunting our growth! His greatest wish is that we all succeed!

Moses 1:30,

For behold, this is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the imortality and eternal life of man.

I can support myself without faith. What if I said you can't argue with me, because you don't have faith in my world view?

I never said that.

This is a direct contradiction of what you've told me earlier.

Yes, you?re right, remember what I said in an earlier post about the possability that we might both be wrong! Well I fear that this has been one of those times! While attending the Priesthood meeting of GC last night and listning to Pres, Uchtdorfs talk it occurred to me that I had been looking at it all wrong. That?s why my metaphors weren?t working! I have to admit that I never thought they were very good either, but I was confused and decieved! Anyway the CK is not a competition, it?s a journey!

Then why can't he help evil people improve? Why are some doomed to a lack of acheivment, when they are capable of becoming pure with God's help? God helps others who are willing... so why wouldn't he help an evil person? Becuase they're not willing, right?

He does help! As I just said, he gives everyone as much help as he possably can, but we didn?t come here to be given a free ride. We?re here to learn how to become like Him! Since He didn?t create us from nothing in the first place, we always exsisted as intelligences, He can?t just make us perfect. We can only get there by our own work and through the atonement that he provided!

Well, they're only unwilling, because they don't understand. They're confused, ignorant, or deceived. This is not their fault, because they lack understanding when they become confused.

The people that fall at these roadblocks are deceived. When someone is deceived, they are unaware of it. How is this their fault if they are unaware of deception?

Because they chose to open themselves to deception? Well, isn't this because they lacked understanding, and were confused or ignorant and unaware of it?

That?s what the atonement is all about, and that?s why we do the ordenence work in behalf of the dead, so that they can find out what they didn?t know before.

Attitude? What attitude? I don't see any attitude. Show me my own words if I've missed it.

I answered that at the bottom of my last post!

The third of the host of heaven rejected the plan of salvation because they lacked understanding of it's superiority. They were confused, ignorant, or deceived. They did not know good from evil. They didn't trust in the plan of salvation, because they didn't understand that choosing Satan will ultimately lead to sadness and loss of free-will. This is why understanding is so important.

And you know this how?

I have my reasons, and I think we have enough to talk about. But, if I did have faith in your beliefs, I would still be upset with them, for the very same reasons I'm arguing here.

Fair enough!

Mike

[DLClark]

Paul said that he god his gospel message from christ. Was Paul lying then if what he said in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 is not true? If works are pare to salvation here is a question for.

Q. Have you done enough good works to merit salvatio or being with God in heaven when you die?

We have the Words of Jesus here and they agree with Paul Is Jesus wrong here when He said faith saved and lack of faith condemns? Notice that Jesus never said that to be saved one must be patized, join a church, do good works. All He said was to believe for salvation and not believe for judgment.

John 3:16-19

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 " He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

NASU

John 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

KJV

John 5:24

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

KJV

John 6:47

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

KJV

[Montgomery Price]

I?m not saying that we don?t need to talk, only that if you won?t accept my metaphors then we?ll never come to an understanding!

"Yet you take principles for which you don't even have a foundational belief in, and then seek to aply them to an eternity which you also don't believe in!"

You seem to imply that I have no authority on the subject. Is this correct?

O k, but isn?t that the same thing as speculating?

Yes, it's an argument from speculation, but, it's yet to be invalidated. I find it highly probable.

It appears that Satan and his followers did!

My understanding is, that in the preexsistence there were no real choices to be made except whether or not to accept Heavenly Fathers plan. When we saw what the ultimate reward was, most of us, choose the plan, in the hopes of attaining it, but when we got here, we were suddenly showered with a plethora of choices. Our bodies demanded instant gratifacation, and Satan, now firmly entrenched here, was more then happy to provide that gratifacation! Our memories of the preexistence was erased to protect us from having the ability to sin against ?perfect knowledge? for which there could be no forgivness, and our true selves would be made manifest by how we dealt with our circumstances. We believe that God will not judge us unjustly. He will take into account all the circumstances of our lives. Those who received more will have more to account for then those who had no law given, and all the bad things that may have happened in what for many is a miserable life, will also be taken into account. Try to understand that inasmuch as God did not create us from nothing , we?re His spirit children, our proclivaties to do good or evil were always a part of our being! Just as our tendencies to always take the easier path, or even laziness. We came here to see if we could overcome those bad proclivaties. Through the atonement of Christ, as I explain in my last post He has given us all the help He possably can, without stunting our growth! His greatest wish is that we all succeed!

This still doesn't not address the problem:

Those who chose to follow Satan did not understand the plan of salvation's superiority, because their choice was made out of confusion, ignorance, or deception.

True or false? Explain specifically regarding their choice and confusion. Were they confused, ignorant, or deceived? Was this their fault?

I never said that.

"You claimed that you had support for your views, but the fact is that you, having no faith at all, have no support ay all!

mike"

Again, implications.

Yes, you?re right, remember what I said in an earlier post about the possability that we might both be wrong! Well I fear that this has been one of those times! While attending the Priesthood meeting of GC last night and listning to Pres, Uchtdorfs talk it occurred to me that I had been looking at it all wrong. That?s why my metaphors weren?t working! I have to admit that I never thought they were very good either, but I was confused and decieved! Anyway the CK is not a competition, it?s a journey!

Yes. I do remember. I'm glad.

He does help! As I just said, he gives everyone as much help as he possably can, but we didn?t come here to be given a free ride. We?re here to learn how to become like Him! Since He didn?t create us from nothing in the first place, we always exsisted as intelligences, He can?t just make us perfect. We can only get there by our own work and through the atonement that he provided!

And this is the "center" of my argument. God doesn't have to give us a free-ride, because after we understand the celestial kingdom, we will do anything it takes to get to it. So, God doesn't have to "do the work" for anyone, because they'll do it themselves after they understand. Everyone!

That?s what the atonement is all about, and that?s why we do the ordenence work in behalf of the dead, so that they can find out what they didn?t know before.

So, are you saying that people come to earth doomed to be deceived beyond their own power? And that's why you do baptisms for the dead? They're baptism who died and never became mormon because they had no power to do so?

I answered that at the bottom of my last post!

"You're right! None of this holds any relevance to you. You chide me for saying this is speculative, but since you don't even believe in God, what is to you but an academic exersise? I say speculative because I believe in the foundational precepts of the Gospel. You claimed that you had support for your views, but the fact is that you, having no faith at all, have no support ay all!

mike"

I don't see how this deals with my attitude.

And you know this how?

I don't see any other way to make logical sense of it. Do you have any other way to put it?

Fair enough!

Mike

Indeed.

[mfbukowski]

It's a premise. I was stopping, waiting for you to agree or disagree.

And I'd also like to add... Even though I consider it a premise. I am led to believe that you consider it an argument, because you have disagreed several times when I've brought up these points and others similar:

"The whole point is that not everyone wants to do the work that it will take to achieve the CK."

"Not everyone wants to work hard enough to reach celestial glory"

"But there are a hundred reasons for not attaining the goal."

"Therefore it is possible to know that Jesus is the Christ and not go to the celestial kingdom because you have not perfected yourself, or even want to."

The "understanding" here is so important, and that's what I've been trying to portray. The people who "don't work" do not understand, I argue.

"So, first we need to establish that if a person understands the celestial kingdom they will choose to work for it. They know why it is infinitely more beneficial than any other choice, and consequently, a person is infinitely likely to choose it.

Do you agree?"

I don't know if I agree or not because the statement is so ambiguous, as I have repeatedly said. It all hinges on what qualifies as an "understanding" and many here have already told you that. I have said essentially from my first post when I called you on the fact that "understanding" the atonement was not the same as "understanding" exaltation. Also as I have said before, there is a problem with it being a conditional statement "IF you understand..." As has been stated by others, that makes the argument irrelevant for non members like you because clearly non members do NOT understand.

Again, you are the one who said repeatedly that your premise was an "argument" and now you say it is only a "premise".

You have not yet stated an argument, and I said last post that unless you did so, I was out of here.

You are playing games as usual, when you are ready to state a coherent argument, let me know. If you don't know Mormon doctrine, learn it before you attempt to argue against it. Since of course you are a honest inquirer, I will presume you are seeking the truth and would never try to disprove something you didn't even understand.

As an ex-atheist myself, I love getting into these discussions with atheists, but trying to discuss it with you is like trying to sculpt in melted butter. There's just nothing there but soup. I don't have a clue where you are going with anything. There are many atheists on this forum, and notice no one has come to your aid or help you re-state anything, or take up your cause in any way that I have seen.

I am outa here at least for now.

[Montgomery Price]

I don't know if I agree or not because the statement is so ambiguous, as I have repeatedly said. It all hinges on what qualifies as an "understanding" and many here have already told you that. I have said essentially from my first post when I called you on the fact that "understanding" the atonement was not the same as "understanding" exaltation.

And I haven't opposed this at all. It's not that hard to understand.

"They know why it is infinitely more beneficial than any other choice, and consequently, a person is infinitely likely to choose it."

This is the understanding. They understand that it is infinitely more beneficial. I've also stated before that the understanding is an adequate understanding for ultimate exaltation.

So, I think I've made it clear.

Also as I have said before, there is a problem with it being a conditional statement "IF you understand..." As has been stated by others, that makes the argument irrelevant for non members like you because clearly non members do NOT understand.

And, I've said before, this argument is not irrelevant to non members because the non members are only granting the assumption, and not accepting the doctrine as truth.

Again, you are the one who said repeatedly that your premise was an "argument" and now you say it is only a "premise".

If you read closely, I said that I consider it a premise, but because no one accepts it, it becomes an argument to many posters here. I argue that the premise is valid. This is the argument.

You have not yet stated an argument, and I said last post that unless you did so, I was out of here.

I just did. I argue that "if a person understands the celestial kingdom they will choose to work for it."

Many have objected. It's an argument.

You are playing games as usual, when you are ready to state a coherent argument, let me know. If you don't know Mormon doctrine, learn it before you attempt to argue against it. Since of course you are a honest inquirer, I will presume you are seeking the truth and would never try to disprove something you didn't even understand.

I'm not playing games, and this argument is quite coherent. It really doesn't matter whether or not I "say" it's a premise or an argument. The only thing that matters is if you accept it or deny it, and for what reason.

As an ex-atheist myself, I love getting into these discussions with atheists, but trying to discuss it with you is like trying to sculpt in melted butter. There's just nothing there but soup. I don't have a clue where you are going with anything. There are many atheists on this forum, and notice no one has come to your aid or help you re-state anything, or take up your cause in any way that I have seen.

I am outa here at least for now.

I am going somewhere. But, In order for me to do that, we must establish premises, and if need be, argue about them.

Except, we just can't get passed that.

I'm probably just going to create a new thread, but this probably won't happen for a while.

[paulpatter]

. . . If everyone will eventually come to sincerely accept Jesus as their savior, why would they ever aspire to any less than the celestial kingdom and the presence of God?

Here, at the very outset of your post, you make clear that you do not understand Mormon doctrine--a shortcoming you repeat multiple times throughout this absurdly long, bound-for-nowhere thread.

Others have said it, but it bears repeating: One does not gain the celestial kingdom solely by "sincerely accepting Jesus as [his/her] savior."

[mfbukowski]

Let's pronounce this puppy dead and get it over with. Nothing here folks, keep moving.

[Montgomery Price]

Here, at the very outset of your post, you make clear that you do not understand Mormon doctrine--a shortcoming you repeat multiple times throughout this absurdly long, bound-for-nowhere thread.

Others have said it, but it bears repeating: One does not gain the celestial kingdom solely by "sincerely accepting Jesus as [his/her] savior."

I stopped arguing this on the second page.

I have been corrected, and no longer stand by that assumption.

I have a new argument, and have been using it since. But, because this thread has become so jumbled and confused... I'm creating a new thread. And all of you can bawk at me there.

[Pilgrim]

Hello montgomery,

I would like to mention that the doctrine of reincarnation doesn't have all of the logical incoherencies present within the more traditional versions of the afterlife.

It does, however, have its very own extensive set of logical incoherencies.