The Problem of Salvation

[DLClark]

Perfection is a relative term. Niether I, nor any other LDS that I know of, expect to become perfect in this life, at least not as most people think of perfection. A perfect baby has all of it's fingers and toes, no more then ten each, eats drinks poops and crys a lot. It is unable to stand, walk, talk, and when it's newborn, it can't even hold up it's head or roll over. But if it is healthy and not totaly disfigured, or suffering from some major defect, we call it a "perfect baby"!

The type of perfection that is refered to here, is that which is attributed to us by a perfect Christ, not our own. That's what is meant by being "perfect in Christ". It is through His atonement that we have salvation, by His blood, that we are sanctified, and by His grace we are made perfect in Christ! When we are baptised (After repenting of our sins and confessing Christ as our Lord and Savior) we are perfect in Christ because , having recieved a remission of our sins, we come out clean and holy, without spot. (See above scripture reference!) After which we recieve the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and admonished to call upon Him to help us stay in the right path. All of this is ours, not of ourselves, but given by the grace of God!

I wish I could say yes to that, but I haven't! But I do have the rasurrence that through the gift of repentence (Also part of the marvelous Atonement of Christ!) and by the regular renewing of those covenants that I took at baptisim, that I can still have a hope in the perfection of Christ, through faith in Him!

I'm sorry, I don't get the question.

And no, I'm not interested in having a private "Bible bash" with you!

Mike

If you have not denied yourself then according your requirements for heaven you are excluded. Did you thst the Bible says a person can know for sure that when they die that they will be in heaven with God in the third heaven.

would you like to know how this may be possible for you?

DLC

[mrmendoza]

If you have not denied yourself then according your requirements for heaven you are excluded. Did you thst the Bible says a person can know for sure that when they die that they will be in heaven with God in the third heaven.

would you like to know how this may be possible for you?

DLC

Having "the reasurrence that through the gift of repentence (Also part of the marvelous Atonement of Christ!) and by the regular renewing of those covenants that I took at baptisim, that I can still have a hope in the perfection of Christ, through faith in Him!" tells me all I need to know! And it's sure enough!

Mike

[DLClark]

Can you clarify the double negative portion that you stated previously? I don't follow your explaination that it should read "shall not never perish", and have it mean that what you said it means.

When were the Apostles saved in their faith in Christ? Was it when Jesus first invited them to "come follow me"? They left their lives straightway and followed Him, would you consider that true faith? Even after Jesus declared "upon this rock..." to Peter, in the Garden He says to them: "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

Now why would Jesus Christ first declare that no one can lose their salvation if they have faith, then caution Peter and company to "watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation, if that wasn't possible?

When the Apostles were going to fill the position left vacant by Judas they stated: "... Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell". What did Judas "fall" from? Does one need to be a "true" believer to be an Apostle of the Lord?

We are "true" believers when we continue to hear and follow. Not only should we hear and follow, we should watch and pray that we enter not into temptation.

I received the gift of the Holy Ghost by those who were in authority, through the laying on of hands. The Holy Ghost is my constant companion.

Double negative is the strongest way that the Greek can state that something will never ever happen. Here is the passage. John 10:27-30

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

KJV

"Shall never perish" is a double negative. The context shows that true believer never stop hearing or following and those true believer will not never, not at all, impossible to ever perish. The Bible clearly teaches the eternal security of the believer. Now if you this means lawlessness you are wrong. There are many who wrongly think that if a person is not "under the law" then he will be LAWLESS. A right relationship to Jesus Christ will not result in lawlessness, but rather fruitfulness (Rom. 7:4). Indeed, a right relationship to Jesus Christ is the only possible way that the righteous requirements of the law will be fulfilled: "That the righteousness [righteous requirements] of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Rom. 8:4). "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law" (Gal. 5:22-23). Notice carefully that Romans 8:4 does not say "by us" but "in us." The key to fulfilling the law is LOVE (Rom. 13:8-10 and Gal. 5:14). The key to having LOVE is a Spirit-filled walk (Gal. 5:13-23 and Rom. 8:4). In and of myself I am totally unable to fulfill God

[mrmendoza]

Q. Is the Holy Spirit indwelling you by faith in Christ?

DLC

Yes!

Mike

[DLClark]

Perfection is a relative term. Niether I, nor any other LDS that I know of, expect to become perfect in this life, at least not as most people think of perfection. A perfect baby has all of it's fingers and toes, no more then ten each, eats drinks poops and crys a lot. It is unable to stand, walk, talk, and when it's newborn, it can't even hold up it's head or roll over. But if it is healthy and not totaly disfigured, or suffering from some major defect, we call it a "perfect baby"!

The type of perfection that is refered to here, is that which is attributed to us by a perfect Christ, not our own. That's what is meant by being "perfect in Christ". It is through His atonement that we have salvation, by His blood, that we are sanctified, and by His grace we are made perfect in Christ! When we are baptised (After repenting of our sins and confessing Christ as our Lord and Savior) we are perfect in Christ because , having recieved a remission of our sins, we come out clean and holy, without spot. (See above scripture reference!) After which we recieve the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and admonished to call upon Him to help us stay in the right path. All of this is ours, not of ourselves, but given by the grace of God!

I wish I could say yes to that, but I haven't! But I do have the reasurrence that through the gift of repentence (Also part of the marvelous Atonement of Christ!) and by the regular renewing of those covenants that I took at baptisim, that I can still have a hope in the perfection of Christ, through faith in Him!

I'm sorry, I don't get the question.

And no, I'm not interested in having a private "Bible bash" with you!

Mike

Mike the Bible defines perfection for us. Matt 5:48

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

KJV

We must be as perfect as God the Father is perfect or we can not go to heaven to be with God. Are that perfect Mike?

DLC

[mrmendoza]

Mike the Bible defines perfection for us. Matt 5:48

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

KJV

We must be as perfect as God the Father is perfect or we can not go to heaven to be with God. Are that perfect Mike?

DLC

Are You?

[Tanyan]

Double negative is the strongest way that the Greek can state that something will never ever happen. Here is the passage. John 10:27-30

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

KJV

"Shall never perish" is a double negative. The context shows that true believer never stop hearing or following and those true believer will not never, not at all, impossible

[DLClark]

Are You?

Please do not answer a question with a question. Are you as perfect as God is? If you answer my question then I will address yours.

Matt 5:48-6:1

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

KJV

DLC

[Zakuska]

Please do not answer a question with a question. Are you as perfect as God is? If you answer my question then I will address yours.

Matt 5:48-6:1

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

KJV

DLC

Im as perfect as the Father. According to James.

James 3

2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

[Zakuska]

If OSAS is true then... the Bible lies and there is no reason for the Apostles to make these warnings...

Heb. 6: 6

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

2 Pet. 3: 17

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Peter and Paul must have missed Johns memo. DOH!

Nor could this ever happen...

2 Thes. 2: 3

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Looks like Christ is never coming back boys?! At least according to DLCLARK

[mrmendoza]

Please do not answer a question with a question. Are you as perfect as God is? If you answer my question then I will address yours.

Matt 5:48-6:1

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

KJV

DLC

That's ok, I'll pass. although I'm sure that won't stop you from telling me anyway!

Mike

The fact is I've already answered that question in my last two post. Yes, I am made perfect in Christ by the grace of God. If that's not perfect enough for you, I, by accepting His atoneing sacrifice, am perfactly satisfied that it is good enough for Him!

[Flyonthewall]

Double negative is the strongest way that the Greek can state that something will never ever happen.

Okay, if I'm understanding you, it is the Greek that has the double negative not the English translation..correct?

"Shall never perish" is a double negative. The context shows that true believer never stop hearing or following and those true believer will not never, not at all, impossible to ever perish. The Bible clearly teaches the eternal security of the believer. Now if you this means lawlessness you are wrong. There are many who wrongly think that if a person is not "under the law" then he will be LAWLESS. A right relationship to Jesus Christ will not result in lawlessness, but rather fruitfulness (Rom. 7:4). Indeed, a right relationship to Jesus Christ is the only possible way that the righteous requirements of the law will be fulfilled: "That the righteousness [righteous requirements] of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Rom. 8:4). "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law" (Gal. 5:22-23). Notice carefully that Romans 8:4 does not say "by us" but "in us." The key to fulfilling the law is LOVE (Rom. 13:8-10 and Gal. 5:14). The key to having LOVE is a Spirit-filled walk (Gal. 5:13-23 and Rom. 8:4). In and of myself I am totally unable to fulfill God

[DLClark]

Im as perfect as the Father. According to James.

James 3

2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

Here is God's continuing standard of perfection. James 2:10

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

KJV

Have you ever just once broken one of God's commands? If you are honest you will say yes. You are disqualified from heaven becasue you are not as perfect as God is.

DLC

[Zakuska]

Have you ever just once broken one of God's commands? If you are honest you will say yes. You are disqualified from heaven becasue you are not as perfect as God is.

1. 1 Jn. 3: 9 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

How can I sin being Born of God?

Did not Christ make me just as Perfect as God is?

[DLClark]

Who do you think that I am?

Selected Scriptures

Code: A335

With that brief question Jesus Christ confronted His followers with the most important issue they would ever face. He had spent much time with them and made some bold claims about His identity and authority. Now the time had come for them either to believe or deny His teachings.

Who do you say Jesus is? Your response to Him will determine not only your values and lifestyle, but your eternal destiny as well.

Consider what the Bible says about Him:

JESUS IS GOD

While Jesus was on earth there was much confusion about who He was. Some thought He was a wise man or a great prophet. Others thought He was a madman. Still others couldn't decide or didn't care. But Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). That means He claimed to be nothing less than God in human flesh.

Many people today don't understand that Jesus claimed to be God. They're content to think of Him as little more than a great moral teacher. But even His enemies understood His claims to deity. That's why they tried to stone Him to death (John 5:18; 10:33) and eventually had Him crucified (John 19:7).

C.S. Lewis observed, "You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to" (Mere Christianity [Macmillan, 1952], pp. 40-41).

If the biblical claims of Jesus are true, He is God!

JESUS IS HOLY

God is absolutely and perfectly holy (Isaiah 6:3), therefore He cannot commit or approve of evil (James 1:13).

As God, Jesus embodied every element of God's character. Colossians 2:9 says, "In Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form." He was perfectly holy (Hebrews 4:15). Even His enemies couldn't prove any accusation against Him (John 8:46)

God requires holiness of us as well. First Peter 1:16 says, "You shall be holy, for I am holy."

JESUS IS THE SAVIOR

Our failure to obey God--to be holy--places us in danger of eternal punishment (2 Thessalonians 1:9). The truth is, we cannot obey Him because we have neither the desire nor the ability to do so. We are by nature rebellious toward God (Ephesians 2:1-3). The Bible calls our rebellion "sin." According to Scripture, everyone is guilty of sin: "There is no man who does not sin" (1 Kings 8:46). "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). And we are incapable of changing our sinful condition. Jeremiah 13:23 says, "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

That doesn't mean we're incapable of performing acts of human kindness. We might even be involved in various religious or humanitarian activities. But we're utterly incapable of understanding, loving, or pleasing God on our own. The Bible says, "There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one" (Romans 3:10-12).

God's holiness and justice demand that all sin be punished by death: "The soul who sins will die" (Ezekiel 18:4). That's hard for us to understand because we tend to evaluate sin on a relative scale, assuming some sins are less serious than others. However, the Bible teaches that all acts of sin are the result of sinful thinking and evil desires. That's why simply changing our patterns of behavior can't solve our sin problem or eliminate its consequences. We need to be changed inwardly so our thinking and desires are holy

Jesus is the only one who can forgive and transform us, thereby delivering us from the power and penalty of sin: "There is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

Even though God's justice demands death for sin, His love has provided a Savior, who paid the penalty and died for sinners: "Christ ... died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God" (1 Peter 3:18). Christ's death satisfied the demands of God's justice, thereby enabling Him to forgive and save those who place their faith in Him (Romans 3:26). John 3:16 says, "God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." He alone is "our great God and Savior" (Titus 2:13).

JESUS IS THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE OBJECT OF SAVING FAITH

Some people think it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you're sincere. But without a valid object your faith is useless

If you take poison--thinking it's medicine--all the faith in the world won't restore your life. Similarly, if Jesus is the only source of salvation, and you're trusting in anyone or anything else for your salvation, your faith is useless.

Many people assume there are many paths to God and that each religion represents an aspect of truth. But Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me" (John 14:6). He didn't claim to be one of many equally legitimate paths to God, or the way to God for His day only. He claimed to be the only way to God--then and forever.

JESUS IS LORD

Contemporary thinking says man is the product of evolution. But the Bible says we were created by a personal God to love, serve, and enjoy endless fellowship with Him

The New Testament reveals it was Jesus Himself who created everything (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16). Therefore He also owns and rules everything (Psalm 103:19). That means He has authority over our lives and we owe Him absolute allegiance, obedience, and worship.

Romans 10:9 says, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved." Confessing Jesus as Lord means humbly submitting to His authority (Philippians 2:10-11). Believing that God has raised Him from the dead involves trusting in the historical fact of His resurrection--the pinnacle of Christian faith and the way the Father affirmed the deity and authority of the Son (Romans 1:4; Acts 17:30-31).

True faith is always accompanied by repentance from sin. Repentance is more than simply being sorry for sin. It is agreeing with God that you are sinful, confessing your sins to Him, and making a conscious choice to turn from sin and pursue holiness (Isaiah 55:7). Jesus said, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments" (John 14:15); and "If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine" (John 8:31).

It isn't enough to believe certain facts about Christ. Even Satan and his demons believe in the true God (James 2:19), but they don't love and obey Him. Their faith is not genuine. True saving faith always responds in obedience (Ephesians 2:10).

Jesus is the sovereign Lord. When you obey Him you are acknowledging His lordship and submitting to His authority. That doesn't mean your obedience will always be perfect, but that is your goal. There is no area of your life that you withhold from Him.

JESUS IS THE JUDGE

All who reject Jesus as their Lord and Savior will one day face Him as their Judge: "God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead" (Acts 17:30-31).

Second Thessalonians 1:7-9 says, "The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power."

HOW WILL YOU RESPOND?

Who does the Bible say Jesus is? The living God, the Holy One, the Savior, the only valid object of saving faith, the sovereign Lord, and the righteous Judge.

Who do you say Jesus is? That is the inescapable question. He alone can redeem you--free you from the power and penalty of sin. He alone can transform you, restore you to fellowship with God, and give your life eternal purpose. Will you repent and believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?

DLC

[DLClark]

1. 1 Jn. 3: 9 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

How can I sin being Born of God?

Did not Christ make me just as Perfect as God is?

My answer is this. 1 John 1:8-10

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

KJV

1 John 3:9 Actions indicate ones character. God's seed in us is His nature given to each person who by faith alone accepts Christ as his personal Savior. The point that John is making here is that the child of God takes on the nature of his Parent. This does not mean that the child of God is sinnless. 1 John 1:8-10 says we decieve ourselves if we think so. Each person has two nature in him when he is saved by faith alone in Christ, Romans 6-7. He has his old nature, the flesh, that which produces sin. He also is given a new nature, God's nature, which cannot sin. It depends on which nature you feed the most as to which one is strongest. The new nature can not sin which is what John here is taking about. The old nature can sin though. 1 John is not teaching sinnless perfection other wise he would never have written 1 John 1:8,9.

We must be as perfect as God is to go to heaven. Are you that perfect? Please address my question and only this question. Do not ask me yet if I am that perfect. That is another issue we can talk about another time. For now just answer my simply question. Are you as perfect as God so that you can go to heaven? Matt 5:48

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

KJV

DLC

[DLClark]

Okay, if I'm understanding you, it is the Greek that has the double negative not the English translation..correct?

This is all good stuff...Now if you don't mind can I get your take on the following?

If you know anything about English you know we do not use double negatives. The Greek does and the English points this out with the words "shall never perish." Never means never and states just what the Greek implies with the double negative.

It is impossible for a true believer in Christ to ever lose that which he cannot earn or even keep. God does both the saving and the keeping of our souls. That is why salvation is a free gift Eph 2:8-9; Rom 6:23. If you have to do one single thing to earn salvation then it is not free but a wage.

Do not think that because salvation is free means we are free to do what ever we want. All who are saved by faith alone in Christ are asked to live godly lives for God.

Col 3:1-15

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

KJV

DLC

[DLClark]

That's ok, I'll pass. although I'm sure that won't stop you from telling me anyway!

Mike

The fact is I've already answered that question in my last two post. Yes, I am made perfect in Christ by the grace of God. If that's not perfect enough for you, I, by accepting His atoneing sacrifice, am perfactly satisfied that it is good enough for Him!

Which God are trusting in? The God of Mormonism who is a creatd being and progressing or the God of the Bible who Christ Jesus. Jesus was always God. Was never a spirit being who became a god. Was never created. Who created every thing there is and is and ever has been from eternity past the only One, True, Living, Creator, God. Isa 45:5

5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other;

Besides Me there is no God.

Isa 45:21-24

And there is no other God besides Me,

A righteous God and a Savior;

There is none except Me.

22 " Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;

For I am God, and there is no other.

23 " I have sworn by Myself,

The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness

And will not turn back,

That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

24 "They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.'

Men will come to Him,

And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.

DLC

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

My answer is this. 1 John 1:8-10

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

KJV

DLC

So you bring up a verse of scripture that contradicts another verse of scripture. Nice.

One verse says that we canno sin because we are born of God then you tell us that if we have no sin we are decieved?

I think it might not be a contrdcition but a mis-interpretation of scripture. I remain unconvinced that you know what you are talking about.

[Vance]

Which God are trusting in? The God of Mormonism who is a creatd being and progressing or the God of the Bible who Christ Jesus.

That is what you call a "false choice".

I choose the true God, who happens to be the God of Mormonism AND the God of the Bible, your misinterpretation of scripture not withstanding.

[Flyonthewall]

If you know anything about English you know we do not use double negatives. The Greek does and the English points this out with the words "shall never perish." Never means never and states just what the Greek implies with the double negative.

This is as I thought...the double negative is on the greek side, not the english.

It is impossible for a true believer in Christ to ever lose that which he cannot earn or even keep. God does both the saving and the keeping of our souls.

And that is why I would like to see your take on why Jesus cautions His apostles to "watch and pray lest ye enter into temptation, for the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak". If the apostle are safely held in God's hand so that no one or no thing can pluck them out, why the warning? If they cannot lose their salvation, why worry about temptation?

That is why salvation is a free gift Eph 2:8-9; Rom 6:23. If you have to do one single thing to earn salvation then it is not free but a wage.

This brings up the definition of "salvation", which there is more than one, but that is a topic of another thread.

Do not think that because salvation is free means we are free to do what ever we want. All who are saved by faith alone in Christ are asked to live godly lives for God.

I will go with you on this for a bit...what if they don't live "godly" lives? What if I am past that defining moment whereby I am saved and have eternal life, then I stop hearning and following? Are you saying God will not allow that to happen? or are you saying, as I have heard said before, that I was never truely saved to begin with? If it is the latter, then there really isn't a defining moment if in hind sight it can be said that "I was never really saved to begin with". If there is no defining moment, then salvation is a process or a path we must follow, and the further we get down the path, the less likely we are to stop hearing and following...but the possibility is still there.

I know this goes against your understanding, but please address the questions I have asked...don't just quote scripture because you will understand it one way and my understanding may not match yours.

[mfbukowski]

Here is God's continuing standard of perfection. James 2:10

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

KJV

Have you ever just once broken one of God's commands? If you are honest you will say yes. You are disqualified from heaven becasue you are not as perfect as God is.

DLC

Sounds like my favorite fundie, Kirk Cameron.

[mrmendoza]

Which God are trusting in? The God of Mormonism who is a creatd being and progressing or the God of the Bible who Christ Jesus. Jesus was always God. Was never a spirit being who became a god. Was never created. Who created every thing there is and is and ever has been from eternity past the only One, True, Living, Creator, God. Isa 45:5

5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other;

Besides Me there is no God.

Do you have a speach impediment, or do you just not know how to write a coherent sentence? Sorry, but your sentence structure is rather distracting, and sometimes it's difficult to understand. I know I often have trouble with my spelling, but I try to get most of it right.

As to your assertation here, I'm not going to waste my time going around in circles with you on this subject. It has been addressed too many times before on this board, but if you want a few samples from the NT which state quite clearly the separate characters of God the Father and The Lord Jesus Christ, read on!

1

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father,

and the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 1; 1-7

27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. Romans 16;27

3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 1Cor.1;3

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, Acts 7;55

I'm sure that you will find all kind of ways to twist the scriptures, to prove that , that which says one thing actually means something else!

Mike

[Vance]

Here is my list.

Eph. 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

[mrmendoza]

Who do you think that I am?

Selected Scriptures

Code: A335

JESUS IS THE SAVIOR

Our failure to obey God--to be holy--places us in danger of eternal punishment (2 Thessalonians 1:9). The truth is, we cannot obey Him because we have neither the desire nor the ability to do so. We are by nature rebellious toward God (Ephesians 2:1-3). The Bible calls our rebellion "sin." According to Scripture, everyone is guilty of sin: "There is no man who does not sin" (1 Kings 8:46). "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). And we are incapable of changing our sinful condition. Jeremiah 13:23 says, "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

That doesn't mean we're incapable of performing acts of human kindness. We might even be involved in various religious or humanitarian activities. But we're utterly incapable of understanding, loving, or pleasing God on our own. The Bible says, "There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one" (Romans 3:10-12).

God's holiness and justice demand that all sin be punished by death: "The soul who sins will die" (Ezekiel 18:4). That's hard for us to understand because we tend to evaluate sin on a relative scale, assuming some sins are less serious than others. However, the Bible teaches that all acts of sin are the result of sinful thinking and evil desires. That's why simply changing our patterns of behavior can't solve our sin problem or eliminate its consequences. We need to be changed inwardly so our thinking and desires are holy

Jesus is the only one who can forgive and transform us, thereby delivering us from the power and penalty of sin: "There is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

Even though God's justice demands death for sin, His love has provided a Savior, who paid the penalty and died for sinners: "Christ ... died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God" (1 Peter 3:18). Christ's death satisfied the demands of God's justice, thereby enabling Him to forgive and save those who place their faith in Him (Romans 3:26). John 3:16 says, "God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." He alone is "our great God and Savior" (Titus 2:13).

JESUS IS THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE OBJECT OF SAVING FAITH

Some people think it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you're sincere. But without a valid object your faith is useless

If you take poison--thinking it's medicine--all the faith in the world won't restore your life. Similarly, if Jesus is the only source of salvation, and you're trusting in anyone or anything else for your salvation, your faith is useless.

Many people assume there are many paths to God and that each religion represents an aspect of truth. But Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me" (John 14:6). He didn't claim to be one of many equally legitimate paths to God, or the way to God for His day only. He claimed to be the only way to God--then and forever.

JESUS IS LORD

Contemporary thinking says man is the product of evolution. But the Bible says we were created by a personal God to love, serve, and enjoy endless fellowship with Him

The New Testament reveals it was Jesus Himself who created everything (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16). Therefore He also owns and rules everything (Psalm 103:19). That means He has authority over our lives and we owe Him absolute allegiance, obedience, and worship.

Romans 10:9 says, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved." Confessing Jesus as Lord means humbly submitting to His authority (Philippians 2:10-11). Believing that God has raised Him from the dead involves trusting in the historical fact of His resurrection--the pinnacle of Christian faith and the way the Father affirmed the deity and authority of the Son (Romans 1:4; Acts 17:30-31).

True faith is always accompanied by repentance from sin. Repentance is more than simply being sorry for sin. It is agreeing with God that you are sinful, confessing your sins to Him, and making a conscious choice to turn from sin and pursue holiness (Isaiah 55:7). Jesus said, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments" (John 14:15); and "If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine" (John 8:31).

It isn't enough to believe certain facts about Christ. Even Satan and his demons believe in the true God (James 2:19), but they don't love and obey Him. Their faith is not genuine. True saving faith always responds in obedience (Ephesians 2:10).

Jesus is the sovereign Lord. When you obey Him you are acknowledging His lordship and submitting to His authority. That doesn't mean your obedience will always be perfect, but that is your goal. There is no area of your life that you withhold from Him.

HOW WILL YOU RESPOND?

Who does the Bible say Jesus is? The living God, the Holy One, the Savior, the only valid object of saving faith, the sovereign Lord, and the righteous Judge.

Who do you say Jesus is? That is the inescapable question. He alone can redeem you--free you from the power and penalty of sin. He alone can transform you, restore you to fellowship with God, and give your life eternal purpose. DLC

Most of what you're saying here is the same thing that we've been saying all along! You seem to be contradicting yourself, first you say that we absolutly don't have to do anything and now your saying we have to be obediant to Gods commands! I guess that just another case of you EVs following your circular pattern.

Will you repent and believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?

Did that a long time ago!

Mike