The Problem of Salvation

[Zakuska]

DLClark you are plagiarizing other peoples work sans attribution. You were warned once. This time you are suspended for a week, if you do it again you will be banned.

Nemesis

Darn you Nemesis?! I was just having fun!

Fine... Ill take my other toys and leave this sand box... I'll have to find another troll to go poke at for a week.

[Vance]

First, we should remember that when Jesus said these words, Christian baptism had not yet been instituted.

So the Baptism of Christ wasn't a Christian Baptism? Then what kind of Baptism was the Baptism of Christ if it wasn't a Christian Baptism?

Obviously the Baptism of Christ was a Christian Baptism what other kind of Baptism could it be?

Now this begs the question. Since the Baptism of Christ was preformed by John the Baptist, were the rest of John's baptisms also Christian?

Enter Christ with this;

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

This clearly indicates that since the beginning of John the Baptists ministry the "kingdom of God" was preached which included baptism by immersion for the remission of sins. Therefore all of the baptisms performed by John were the same as his baptism of Christ, in other words they were all "Christian" Baptisms.

We also have this;

John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,

Were these baptisms NOT Christian baptisms? They were performed under the direction of Christ. Doesn't that make them Christian Baptisms?

[Vance]

Baptism is required for one to be saved. Jesus taught it by both word and example.

Matt 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

If the Lamb of God, He being holy, needed to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, that is to do the will of the Father, then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized by water!

But notwithstanding He being holy, He showed us that He humbled Himself before the Father, and witnessed to the Father that He would be obedient to Him in keeping all of His commandments and obeying His will.

Jesus said (John 6:38)

[DLClark]

Seems to me it doesn't matter the order in which it comes.

1. Heb. 10: 22 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

We need to be cleasned both inside AND out.

First the cleansing is not water bpatism here. The passage is not dealing with how to be saved. Paul is addressing people who are already saved and talking to them about how they come into God's presence. They must have clean hearts which happens with confession of sins. The passage begins in verse one of chapter. Notice the word "brothers" here. This is a refernce to saved people. The idea of having ones body cleansed with "pure water" is problably an exhortation to lay hold continuously of the cleasnig benefit of of Christ's Cross (or some say the Word of God) and draw near to God in enjoying them. putting away inward guilt and outward impurity. 1 John 1:9 is in view here. So my comments that water baptism is never taught in the Bible as salvic still stands. Before you give another passage hat you might think teaches baptismal regeneration study the context of that passage first.

Saved by grace (unmerited favor) through faith alone in Christ.

DLC

[Zakuska]

First the cleansing is not water bpatism here. The passage is not dealing with how to be saved. Paul is addressing people who are already saved and talking to them about how they come into God's presence. They must have clean hearts which happens with confession of sins. The passage begins in verse one of chapter. Notice the word "brothers" here. This is a refernce to saved people. The idea of having ones body cleansed with "pure water" is problably an exhortation to lay hold continuously of the cleasnig benefit of of Christ's Cross (or some say the Word of God) and draw near to God in enjoying them. putting away inward guilt and outward impurity. 1 John 1:9 is in view here. So my comments that water baptism is never taught in the Bible as salvic still stands. Before you give another passage hat you might think teaches baptismal regeneration study the context of that passage first.

Saved by grace (unmerited favor) through faith alone in Christ.

DLC

You forget that 4 chapters earlier "addressing these same people" he makes good an sure to remind them about their Baptisms [PLURAL] one in Water and one by fire and the Holy Ghost. (Ie what estamblished them IN CHRIST)

Heb 6

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Faith, Repentance, Baptism (in Water by Imersion), Gift of the Holy Ghost (baptism by Fire) is the MILK of the Gospel and the Doctrines of Christ, DLClark.

You are just like the people Paul is addressing... you're like a sukling babe that can't even get past the basics. (see Chapter 5) Chapter 10 he's just repeating his reference to BaptismS one in Water to wash the outer impurity and one By Fire to cleanse the inner man.

Theres only one church on this Planet that I know of that teaches this.... And that is "The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints"

Articles of Faith:

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[DLClark]

You forget that 4 chapters earlier "addressing these same people" he makes good an sure to remind them about their Baptisms [PLURAL] one in Water and one by fire and the Holy Ghost. (Ie what estamblished them IN CHRIST)

Heb 6

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Faith, Repentance, Baptism (in Water by Imersion), Gift of the Holy Ghost (baptism by Fire) is the MILK of the Gospel and the Doctrines of Christ, DLClark.

You are just like the people Paul is addressing... you're like a sukling babe that can't even get past the basics. (see Chapter 5) Chapter 10 he's just repeating his reference to BaptismS one in Water to wash the outer impurity and one By Fire to cleanse the inner man.

Theres only one church on this Planet that I know of that teaches this.... And that is "The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints"

Articles of Faith:

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Q. Where in the text of Heb. 6 does it say water bpatism saves us? Which baptism is the text referring to, John's baptism, Christian baptism, Spirit baptism, or water baptism? Why does it have to be water bpatism? Why not the baptism by the Spirit that places us into christ 1 Cor. 12:13? This baptism "]"by"[/color] the Spirit is performed by the Spirit the very moment we believe, Romans 8:9.

Again no passage teaches that us that water baptism needed for salvation.

DLC

[Vance]

DLClark (the plagiarist),

Here is a clue for you. John's baptism = Christian baptism = water baptism. See my post above.

Rom. 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Those to whom this epistle was written had already received baptism by water.

SO!!!

Two chapters later when Paul says;

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

He is talking to those who have received Water baptism.

You can't use this verse to show that water baptism isn't needed because those of whom he is speak had previously been baptized by water.

[Vance]

Again no passage teaches that us that water baptism needed for salvation.

DLC

Why is it that you continue to ignore the clear and plain message of John 3?

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother