The Problem of Salvation

[Vance]

I suppose Joseph Smith took care of this alleged contradiction in his translation.

You suppose correctly!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The problem with some religions is that they want everything to fit into a nice understandable box. Somethings we just take by faith and trust the written Word of God, The Bible.

DLC

Oh, the ironoy.

I cannot find a single verse of scripture that tells us that we cannot see a spirit. Your whole arguement rests on this. If you cannot show that men cannot see a spirit then you have no case. Thanks for playing.

Matt. 5: 8

8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

This refutes the verse in John. Why does Jesus proclaim that the pure in heart will see God if "no man hath seen God" or that man cannot see God.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I suppose Joseph Smith took care of this alleged contradiction in his translation.

Is this some kind of an arguemnt? That is what prophets of God do. They are the only ones authorized to correct scripture. Otherwise you have a glaring contradiction.

[Zakuska]

Oh, the ironoy.

I cannot find a single verse of scripture that tells us that we cannot see a spirit. Your whole arguement rests on this. If you cannot show that men cannot see a spirit then you have no case. Thanks for playing.

Matt. 5: 8

8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

This refutes the verse in John. Why does Jesus proclaim that the pure in heart will see God if "no man hath seen God" or that man cannot see God.

How many people in the Scriptures saw Angels (aka ministering spirits)?

Heb. 1: 7, 14

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

[Flyonthewall]

Oh, the ironoy.

I cannot find a single verse of scripture that tells us that we cannot see a spirit. Your whole arguement rests on this. If you cannot show that men cannot see a spirit then you have no case. Thanks for playing.

Matt. 5: 8

8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

This refutes the verse in John. Why does Jesus proclaim that the pure in heart will see God if "no man hath seen God" or that man cannot see God.

Not only that, but when the diciples first saw Jesus, they were scared, and Jesus had to re-assure them that he was not a spirit. Apparently the disciples didn't know you cannot see a spirit, and Jesus did not correct them by telling them that they could not.

[Flyonthewall]

Answer. Jesus is the visible representation of the invisible God.

Jesus manifests the invisible God to us. That is the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from the Bible God's infallible Word.

Of course another "logical conclusion" that can be drawn is that Jesus Christ looks like God the Father. The Bible states that we are made in the image of God. If God were invisible, why aren't we invisible too? If God has no shape or form, where did we get ours from since we are in His image? Apparently there is a reason we have human form, and not that of some other creature.

Looks like God's infallible Word doesn't translate well for us fallible humans. I don't want this spinning off in a different direction, so just keep it as food for thought.

[Zakuska]

Of course another "logical conclusion" that can be drawn is that Jesus Christ looks like God the Father. The Bible states that we are made in the image of God. If God were invisible, why aren't we invisible too? If God has no shape or form, where did we get ours from since we are in His image? Apparently there is a reason we have human form, and not that of some other creature.

Looks like God's infallible Word doesn't translate well for us fallible humans. I don't want this spinning off in a different direction, so just keep it as food for thought.

John 5: 37

37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Hmmm. God has a "shape" that Jesus has seen?

[mrmendoza]

Whatever happened to Monty? Did he give up?

Why then, don't the rest of you?

Mike

[DLClark]

You need to go study the greek of that verse. The "a" was added in the English. It does not appear in the original Greek. John says God is Spirit. he also says God is love, and God is a flaming Fire. Are these declarations of his species? No.

PS. Christ is also called a "Spirit" yet People saw him.

1 Cor. 15: 45

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

2 Cor. 3: 17

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty

So are all those who are Born of God.

John 3

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

So are you really suggesting that all these Born Again people running around are actually invisible men/women?

PS. John the Baptist saw the Holy Ghost descend on Jesus at his Baptism. Something tells me you need to rethink your understanding, or as the case stands... misunderstanding.

I suppose also you feel these are Biblical lies...

Job 19: 26

26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Matt. 5: 8

8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Since God is a Spirit and a Spirit can't be seen.

The KJV says this:John 4:24

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

KJV

On the other hand a more accurate translation comes from the NSAB.

John 4:24

24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

NASU

Notice how accurate NSAB is. It follows the Greek as you say. So what does this mean. It is not a figure of speech. God is not one Spirit among many. This a declaration of His invisible nature. He is not confined to location. Whorship o God can only be done through the One (Jesus) who expresses God's invisible nature (John 1:18) and by virtue of the Holy Spirit who opens to the believer the new realm of the kingdom (John 3:3,5; 7:38-39).

This statement of God being Spirit would be a figure of speech if we did not have other verse supporting this idea. No person can see a spirit. Notice that these verse says God the Father or God, for there is only one God, is invisible.

1 John 4:12

12 No man hath seen God at any time.

KJV

1 Tim 1:17

17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

KJV

We can not see God because He dwells in

1 Tim 6:16

16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

KJV

No person has ever seen God for He dwells in unapproachable light.

John 1:18 means, "No one has ever seen God's essential nature." God may be seen in a theophany or anthropomophism (giving God human qualities) but His inner essence or nature is disclosed only in Jesus.

"God the only Son" is literally "the unique God" or "the only begotten (this does not refer to Jesus being born but that He is unique))God."

John 1:18 is another among many verses in the OT and NT that affirm the diety of Jesus. He is unique, the one and only God. The Son "is at the Father's side," thus revealing the intimacy of the Father and the Son (the Word was "with God" John 1:1,2)Furthermore, the Son "has made known (exegetted) the Father to us. The Son is the exegete of the Father, and as a result of His work the nature of the invisible Father (John 4:24) is displayed in the Son. John 6:45-47

46 " Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One (Jesus Christ)who is from God; He has seen the Father."

John 1:18

18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God (Jesus Christ)who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained (exegeted) Him.

John 14:8-12

8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

Jesus is the visible manifestation of the invisible God to us.

JS never saw God the Father for if he did JS would be dead before he could have ever told anyone about it.

Ex 33:17-23

17 The LORD said to Moses, "I will also do this thing of which you have spoken; for you have found favor in My sight and I have known you by name." 18 Then Moses said, "I pray You, show me Your glory!" 19 And He said, " I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion." 20 But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!" 21 Then the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock; 22 and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. 23 "Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."

Moses wanted to God's glory or see God face to face. God said no person could ever do this and live. So God shieled Moses from the full view of Himself by placing him in the cleft of a rock and covering him so that Moses could not see the full essence or glory of God. Moses said of this event that he was so close to God it was as if he was face to face with God the Father on the Mount. But He was not face to face for Moses was shielded from God's essence or glory or face in a clet and by the hand of God. When we read in the bible that people saw God it is refering to nearness in poximity not actually seeing Him. For if they did see Him face to face they would be dead and unable to report of the experience.

DLC

[Flyonthewall]

The KJV says this:John 4:24

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

KJV

On the other hand a more accurate translation comes from the NSAB.

John 4:24

24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

NASU

Notice how accurate NSAB is. It follows the Greek as you say. So what does this mean. It is not a figure of speech. God is not one Spirit among many. This a declaration of His invisible nature. He is not confined to location. Whorship o God can only be done through the One (Jesus) who expresses God's invisible nature (John 1:18) and by virtue of the Holy Spirit who opens to the believer the new realm of the kingdom (John 3:3,5; 7:38-39).

This statement of God being Spirit would be a figure of speech if we did not have other verse supporting this idea. No person can see a spirit. Notice that these verse says God the Father or God, for there is only one God, is invisible.

1 John 4:12

12 No man hath seen God at any time.

KJV

1 Tim 1:17

17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

KJV

We can not see God because He dwells in

1 Tim 6:16

16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

KJV

No person has ever seen God for He dwells in unapproachable light.

John 1:18 means, "No one has ever seen God's essential nature." God may be seen in a theophany or anthropomophism (giving God human qualities) but His inner essence or nature is disclosed only in Jesus.

"God the only Son" is literally "the unique God" or "the only begotten (this does not refer to Jesus being born but that He is unique))God."

John 1:18 is another among many verses in the OT and NT that affirm the diety of Jesus. He is unique, the one and only God. The Son "is at the Father's side," thus revealing the intimacy of the Father and the Son (the Word was "with God" John 1:1,2)Furthermore, the Son "has made known (exegetted) the Father to us. The Son is the exegete of the Father, and as a result of His work the nature of the invisible Father (John 4:24) is displayed in the Son. John 6:45-47

46 " Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One (Jesus Christ)who is from God; He has seen the Father."

John 1:18

18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God (Jesus Christ)who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained (exegeted) Him.

John 14:8-12

8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

Jesus is the visible manifestation of the invisible God to us.

JS never saw God the Father for if he did JS would be dead before he could have ever told anyone about it.

Ex 33:17-23

17 The LORD said to Moses, "I will also do this thing of which you have spoken; for you have found favor in My sight and I have known you by name." 18 Then Moses said, "I pray You, show me Your glory!" 19 And He said, " I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion." 20 But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!" 21 Then the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock; 22 and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. 23 "Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."

Moses wanted to God's glory or see God face to face. God said no person could ever do this and live. So God shieled Moses from the full view of Himself by placing him in the cleft of a rock and covering him so that Moses could not see the full essence or glory of God. Moses said of this event that he was so close to God it was as if he was face to face with God the Father on the Mount. But He was not face to face for Moses was shielded from God's essence or glory or face in a clet and by the hand of God. When we read in the bible that people saw God it is refering to nearness in poximity not actually seeing Him. For if they did see Him face to face they would be dead and unable to report of the experience.

Don't you see the contradiction in your own statements? If God were invisible, why would He need to protect Moses from seeing Him? Unless you are saying that His glory is separate from Him...?

It is interesting that the very chapter that you cite about no one seeing God, in verse 11, it says very plainly that "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend..."

This blows your belief right out of the water, so you have to "fix", explain, why the scriptures don't really mean what they say. Your "infallible" word of God sure needs a lot of fixing.

[DLClark]

Don't you see the contradiction in your own statements? If God were invisible, why would He need to protect Moses from seeing Him? Unless you are saying that His glory is separate from Him...?

It is interesting that the very chapter that you cite about no one seeing God, in verse 11, it says very plainly that "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend..."

This blows your belief right out of the water, so you have to "fix", explain, why the scriptures don't really mean what they say. Your "infallible" word of God sure needs a lot of fixing.

No sinner can ever stand in the presence of a holy God. That is why we have come short of the glory of God romans 3:23. We must be mande as righteous as God is in oder to stand in His presence. We have when we by faith accept Jesus as our savior, 2 Cor. 5:21.

How can a sinner, you, fix you r sin problem with your good work? Now please do not ignor this question please. It is the most important question you will ever be asked.

DLC

[Vance]

No sinner can ever stand in the presence of a holy God. That is why we have come short of the glory of God romans 3:23. We must be mande as righteous as God is in oder to stand in His presence. We have when we by faith accept Jesus as our savior, 2 Cor. 5:21.

How can a sinner, you, fix you r sin problem with your good work? Now please do not ignor this question please. It is the most important question you will ever be asked.

DLC

You sure don't pay attention do you? I answered this question already. Did you even read it?

Here it is again. You could actually read it this time.

Through the Atonement of Christ the work of Repentance fixes our "sin problem".

Repentance brings forgiveness of sins.

Acts 3:19

[Flyonthewall]

No sinner can ever stand in the presence of a holy God. That is why we have come short of the glory of God romans 3:23. We must be mande as righteous as God is in oder to stand in His presence. We have when we by faith accept Jesus as our savior, 2 Cor. 5:21.

How can a sinner, you, fix you r sin problem with your good work? Now please do not ignor this question please. It is the most important question you will ever be asked.

DLC

Do you beleive that God can prepare/protect someone to withstand His presence? This seems to be what God did for Moses. If God wants to talk to someone face to face, do you think He can make that happen? The scriptures state on a number of occasions that Moses talked with the Lord face to face, and there are others that claim to have seen God.

I don't fix the sin problem with my good work, Jesus does through the atonement and repentance, but if I don't repent, the problem won't get fixed. This is not to say I fix it through repentance, but that is the vehicle Jesus gave us to use the atonement.

[Zakuska]

The KJV says this:John 4:24

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

KJV

On the other hand a more accurate translation comes from the NSAB.

John 4:24

24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

NASU

Notice how accurate NSAB is. It follows the Greek as you say. So what does this mean. It is not a figure of speech. God is not one Spirit among many. This a declaration of His invisible nature. He is not confined to location. Whorship o God can only be done through the One (Jesus) who expresses God's invisible nature (John 1:18) and by virtue of the Holy Spirit who opens to the believer the new realm of the kingdom (John 3:3,5; 7:38-39).

This statement of God being Spirit would be a figure of speech if we did not have other verse supporting this idea. No person can see a spirit. Notice that these verse says God the Father or God, for there is only one God, is invisible.

1 John 4:12

12 No man hath seen God at any time.

KJV

1 Tim 1:17

17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

KJV

We can not see God because He dwells in

1 Tim 6:16

16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

KJV

No person has ever seen God for He dwells in unapproachable light.

John 1:18 means, "No one has ever seen God's essential nature." God may be seen in a theophany or anthropomophism (giving God human qualities) but His inner essence or nature is disclosed only in Jesus.

"God the only Son" is literally "the unique God" or "the only begotten (this does not refer to Jesus being born but that He is unique))God."

John 1:18 is another among many verses in the OT and NT that affirm the diety of Jesus. He is unique, the one and only God. The Son "is at the Father's side," thus revealing the intimacy of the Father and the Son (the Word was "with God" John 1:1,2)Furthermore, the Son "has made known (exegetted) the Father to us. The Son is the exegete of the Father, and as a result of His work the nature of the invisible Father (John 4:24) is displayed in the Son. John 6:45-47

46 " Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One (Jesus Christ)who is from God; He has seen the Father."

John 1:18

18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God (Jesus Christ)who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained (exegeted) Him.

John 14:8-12

8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

Jesus is the visible manifestation of the invisible God to us.

JS never saw God the Father for if he did JS would be dead before he could have ever told anyone about it.

Ex 33:17-23

17 The LORD said to Moses, "I will also do this thing of which you have spoken; for you have found favor in My sight and I have known you by name." 18 Then Moses said, "I pray You, show me Your glory!" 19 And He said, " I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion." 20 But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!" 21 Then the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock; 22 and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. 23 "Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."

Moses wanted to God's glory or see God face to face. God said no person could ever do this and live. So God shieled Moses from the full view of Himself by placing him in the cleft of a rock and covering him so that Moses could not see the full essence or glory of God. Moses said of this event that he was so close to God it was as if he was face to face with God the Father on the Mount. But He was not face to face for Moses was shielded from God's essence or glory or face in a clet and by the hand of God. When we read in the bible that people saw God it is refering to nearness in poximity not actually seeing Him. For if they did see Him face to face they would be dead and unable to report of the experience.

DLC

Here again we have a problem of Translation. The word translated as "invisible" doesn't mean "INVISIBLE" or "UNSEEABLE". It simply means "unseen". The recluse Howard Hughes was unseen for many years that did not make him "Invisible".

Moses did see God and so did the 70 elders.

Ex. 24: 10-11

10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Jesus has seen God:

John 6: 46

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Yet earlier John says No one has. So which is it?

[DLClark]

Here again we have a problem of Translation. The word translated as "invisible" doesn't mean "INVISIBLE" or "UNSEEABLE". It simply means "unseen". The recluse Howard Hughes was unseen for many years that did not make him "Invisible".

Moses did see God and so did the 70 elders.

Ex. 24: 10-11

10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Jesus has seen God:

John 6: 46

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Yet earlier John says No one has. So which is it?

The word "invisible" is an accurate translation for it speak being unseen. If something is unseen has it been seen by any mortal man? No. JS never saw God the Father for He is unseen by mortal man.

http://gallery.me.com/marckent#100359&bgcolor=black&view=grid

NT:517

aoratos, aoraton

unseen, or that cannot be seen, i. e. invisible Col 1:15

(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright

[DLClark]

Do you beleive that God can prepare/protect someone to withstand His presence? This seems to be what God did for Moses. If God wants to talk to someone face to face, do you think He can make that happen? The scriptures state on a number of occasions that Moses talked with the Lord face to face, and there are others that claim to have seen God.

I don't fix the sin problem with my good work, Jesus does through the atonement and repentance, but if I don't repent, the problem won't get fixed. This is not to say I fix it through repentance, but that is the vehicle Jesus gave us to use the atonement.

You are saying two different things. If repentance fixes our sin problem then water bpatism is not part of our salvation. You have said that our sins are washed away at baptism but now you say repentance fixes our sin problem. You are correct in that if we have faith/repentance in Christ then we are saved. Faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin. To be saved is to have our eternal consequences for sin taken care of and we are guarenteed heaven as our home when we are saved by faith or repent. At salvation only do we become children of God when we receive Christ as our Savior, John 1:12. We are not children of God until then. Water baptism is not needed for salvation since our sins are taken care at repentance as you said. Sounds good to me.

DLC

[Zakuska]

The word "invisible" is an accurate translation for it speak being unseen. If something is unseen has it been seen by any mortal man? No. JS never saw God the Father for He is unseen by mortal man.

http://gallery.me.co...black&view=grid

NT:517

aoratos, aoraton

unseen, or that cannot be seen, i. e. invisible Col 1:15

(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright

[mrmendoza]

You are saying two different things. If repentance fixes our sin problem then water bpatism is not part of our salvation. You have said that our sins are washed away at baptism but now you say repentance fixes our sin problem. You are correct in that if we have faith/repentance in Christ then we are saved. Faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin. To be saved is to have our eternal consequences for sin taken care of and we are guarenteed heaven as our home when we are saved by faith or repent. At salvation only do we become children of God when we receive Christ as our Savior, John 1:12. We are not children of God until then. Water baptism is not needed for salvation since our sins are taken care at repentance as you said. Sounds good to me.

DLC

Well since this thread seems like it's going to go on forever, I guess I'll jump in and put my two cents back in!

First off I see that you're still trying to go around the issue of having to do something, like repentence, by saying that faith and repentence are the same thing, or as you put it "two sides of the same coin". That's just not true. They are not the same thing! Faith is what goes on in your heart and mind that causes you to have the desire to repent. If you didn't have any faith, there would be no reason for repentence, and while trying to right any wrongs you may have done may be a type of repentence, without faith in Christ and His Atonement, it would not have anything to do with the Atonement. Baptism, and by that I mean water baptisim, as an ordenence, is for the remission of sins, initialy, after that (after recieving the Gift of the Holy Ghost) then repentence, which is an essential gift of the Atonement, is what we use to help us "indure to the end".We are not saved by faith or repentence, we are saved by faith and repentence, in and through the Atonement of Christ.

Mike

[Flyonthewall]

You are saying two different things. If repentance fixes our sin problem then water bpatism is not part of our salvation. You have said that our sins are washed away at baptism but now you say repentance fixes our sin problem. You are correct in that if we have faith/repentance in Christ then we are saved. Faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin. To be saved is to have our eternal consequences for sin taken care of and we are guarenteed heaven as our home when we are saved by faith or repent. At salvation only do we become children of God when we receive Christ as our Savior, John 1:12. We are not children of God until then. Water baptism is not needed for salvation since our sins are taken care at repentance as you said. Sounds good to me.

DLC

No, I am not saying two different things. I am saying one thing. Before we can be baptized, we must have faith and repent. Baptism washes away our sins through the atonement of Christ. We are only baptized once, but we do not neccessarily stop sinning after baptism. Baptism is a means to be re-born, to start with a clean slate. Repentance is what we use to gain forgiveness of individual sins after baptism.

Faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin, only becaus repentance is a work we must do, and Faith and works are two sides of the same coin. Our works, like repentance and baptism, are what give faith life. Faith is dead without them.

You have been talking out of both sides of your mouth. First, you say we don't need to do anything to be saved, except have faith. Then you say that repentance, a work, is just a part of faith...but repentance is as far as it goes. One of these days you will realize that faith is dead wihtout works, and dead faith does not save.

[Tanyan]

DLC, Agape greetings to you. Are you of the OSAS [Once Saved Always Saved] belief camp ?. LDS Doctrine is we are Saved by Grace [charis] Alone "through" Faith [pistis] Alone. The key element is an understanding of the anchient meaning of Grace [charis] and Faith [pistis] as used by the early Israelites/Christians. When understood in this light the LDS Doctoranal position is the correct one, as so it is with Baptism - water and the spirit. Your view of the non neccesity of water baptism is the minority position among Christians. You would not have survived anchently in the middle east with that mindset/viewpoint [ along with some of your other positions] Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan- LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Vance]

Another problem I have with the OSAS crowd is this.

Col. 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Notice the conditional "if"?

Jesus used the same phrase here.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

[Zakuska]

Another problem I have with the OSAS crowd is this.

Col. 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Notice the conditional "if"?

Jesus used the same phrase here.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

The problem I have with the OSAS and Saved by Grace crowd is this Parable...

Luke 8

5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.

6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.

8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?

10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

The one that was saved is the one the heard, BELEIVED, and WORKED righteouness, AND bore fruit. Simple "BELEIF" wasn't enough.

Theres also the one who "BELIEVED for a while" (Thats the very definition of being saved by 99% of Evanglicals Ive ever talked to) yet he was able to find his way out of Gods all powerful hands right back into the fire.

[Vance]

The problem I have with the OSAS and Saved by Grace crowd is this Parable...

Luke 8

5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.

6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.

8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?

10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

The one that was saved is the one the heard, BELEIVED, and WORKED righteouness, AND bore fruit. Simple "BELEIF" wasn't enough.

Theres also the one who "BELIEVED for a while" (Thats the very definition of being saved by 99% of Evanglicals Ive ever talked to) yet he was able to find his way out of Gods all powerful hands right back into the fire.

[DLClark]

DLC, Agape greetings to you. Are you of the OSAS [Once Saved Always Saved] belief camp ?. LDS Doctrine is we are Saved by Grace [charis] Alone "through" Faith [pistis] Alone. The key element is an understanding of the anchient meaning of Grace [charis] and Faith [pistis] as used by the early Israelites/Christians. When understood in this light the LDS Doctoranal position is the correct one, as so it is with Baptism - water and the spirit. Your view of the non neccesity of water baptism is the minority position among Christians. You would not have survived anchently in the middle east with that mindset/viewpoint [ along with some of your other positions] Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan- LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Please remember that when you say most christians believe water baptism is needed for salvaion you are talking about Catholicism and other false religious groups that fall under Christianity. Not all groups that claim Christ are saved by Him alone. The feel that there is something more that is needed that just faith alone in Christ to be saved Galatians 1:6-9 calls that another gospel and is a problem They are cursed for this false doctrine of salvation by works.Anything added to faith alone in Christ for salvation then becomes a work man does hoping to merit grace and be saved. We are justified by faith in God's sight and then have peace with God, Romans 5:1. Catholics believe in a work oriented system for salvation and that is not what the Bible teaches. Most true Christian take the Bible for what is says and go with that. Chatholics have to go through their church to find out what is true. they can not think for themselves but must be told how to think by their teaching minesterium. That is the problem with most false religions. They can not think for themselves but must have a guide for truth other than the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit. The Bible teaches that when a person is saved by faith in Christ, He secures them to Himself forever. True Christians do not believe in easy believism. Romans 6 must be undrstood in order to know that once saved by grace (umerited favor) we are to live a godly life for God. Romans 8, the whole chapter, teaches that nothing can separate a true believer from God.

Eph 2:1-10 shows us how we are saved. God makes us alive when we were dead in our sins, vv. 4-5. That is why salvation is a free gift to us from God, vv. 8-9. If we have to work our way to individual salvation (there is no such thing as general salvation found in the Bible) then salvation is not a free gift. The reason why there is not general salvation is that all who do not believe in Christ are condemned and judges by God if they die not believing in Christ through faith alone, John 3:15-18, 36; Mark 16:16. This goes for those who add works to salvation one such works is water baptism.

Titus 3:5; Isaiah 64:6.

John 10:27-31 teaches that nothing can pluck those who are saved by faith alone in Christ out of Christ's or God's hand. I call this being doubly secured to God forever by the power of Christ and the pwoer of the Father Himself. Now are you stronger than God that you can undew what He promises to do for us? That is to secure the believer to Himself forever. Now if a person calims to be saved but then leaves that Christian faith or stops believing, this just proves that he was never saved in the first place. 1 John 2:19

19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

Saved and secured to God forever by faith alone in Christ,

DLC

PS. No verse in the Bible teaches that we can lose our salvation. If you think a passage teaches that then you have not done your exegesis of that passage very well. Remember you must understand the passage in the context for which it is written. Context is everything for understanig what the passage is teaching.

[Zakuska]

I like what Tertullian writing around 200AD has to say about people like you DLClark.

Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life! A treatise on this matter will not be superfluous; instructing not only such as are just becoming formed (in the faith), but them who, content with having simply believed, without full examination of the grounds of the traditions, carry (in mind), through ignorance, an untried though probable faith. The consequence is, that a viper of the Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism. Which is quite in accordance with nature; for vipers and asps and basilisks themselves generally do affect arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes, after the example of our ????? Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water; so that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes, by taking them away from the water!

Tertullian is an Orthodox Christian who learned from those who learned from the Apostles themselves. He is claiming the Group you belong to (ie "but them who, content with having simply believed") is the ones who "went out from us".