DLClark Posted November 2, 2009 Posted November 2, 2009 Just as Jesus states.Just as I am telling you. True believers will be baptized because that is what Jesus said to do. There is no need to mention beleivers who are not baptized, because if they are not baptized they are not believers. Being baptized is a dichotomy, you either are your you are not. If you mention what happens to those that are baptized, then by definition, those that are not baptized will not get the same result.John, the greates prophet, as declared by Jesus, greater than Moses, Abraham, Isaiah and all, what was his mission? To make straight the way for the Lord. And what did he preach? Repentance and baptism.These people are those that reject Christ and not saved, just as Jesus states. Correct. Baptism means nothing without believing and having faith in Christ. I've told you before, the physical ordinance does not do anything for you, it is symbolic. It is Jesus that set forth the ordinance MUST be done or one can in no wise enter the kingdom of God. He even went so far as to be baptized Himself, so that all righteousness can be fulfilled. Pretty powerfull evidence.And nobody is saying Baptism is doing the saving! It is by grace we are saved through faith. When Jesus tells us that we must do something or we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, I have faith in His word that He means what He says. When Jesus says that obeying the commandments are what we need to do to enter the kingdom of heaven, I believe in His words and have faith that He means that too.Why do you have to be careful to observe to do all things whatsoever Christ has commanded? I thought once you are saved, that was it, game over, you could not be un-saved.Notice what you said" Ture believers will be baptized.' You make the point that I am trying to make that bible teaches believer's baptism. A person must believer first, their salvation, the be baptized. But I also disagree with your statement. Not all true blievers were or are baptized. Some true believer thing that water baptism is only for the apostolic church age. These people are saved by grace through faith but are not baptized. I do not hold to this view of baptism. Baptism is important but never for salvation. Q. Can you show me a verse that says that if we are not baptized we are judged or condemned? The only condition that the Bible give for judgement is unbelief Mark 16:16; John 3:15-18, 32.DLC
Vance Posted November 2, 2009 Posted November 2, 2009 Paul preached the church to the gentiles.Yeah, but Peter started it.
Vance Posted November 2, 2009 Posted November 2, 2009 And what is the kingdom of God? It's not the church that's for sure.Call for reference! Clear and plain Bible verses please!!!Please, show me one time. should be easy if it has been refuted time and time again. Just one please, Vasily. One ping only.One Lord, one FAITH, one Baptism! Not two faiths!The Gospel Jesus taught is the "one faith".'Kay, so what Paul wrote is not the words of Jesus?Nope! They are the words of Paul. And should be measured against the preeminent words of Jesus to understand them properly. You know, the one they call "The Word." Is that your position?"the Word" is a clear reference to Jesus. He is "the Word" because His message is preeminent of all the apostles and prophets.Whenever there is an "apparent" conflict between the words of Jesus and the words of Paul, it is because the words of Paul (being human) are more confusing that the words of Jesus (being divine).I suspect the reason you have this two gospels theory is because you don't want to accept the fact that the words of Jesus apply to YOU!Do you despise the words of Jesus?
Vance Posted November 2, 2009 Posted November 2, 2009 He did? Weve been over this Hoops22. Acts 20 16 For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost. 17
Vance Posted November 2, 2009 Posted November 2, 2009 I wonder if you can ever go beyond doing a key term bible search.Some times I wonder if you can do a Bible search at all.
Vance Posted November 2, 2009 Posted November 2, 2009 Can you believe "on the Lord Jesus" without believing what He taught?
DLClark Posted November 2, 2009 Posted November 2, 2009 Call for reference! Clear and plain Bible verses please!!!One Lord, one FAITH, one Baptism! Not two faiths!The Gospel Jesus taught is the "one faith".Nope! They are the words of Paul. And should be measured against the preeminent words of Jesus to understand them properly."the Word" is a clear reference to Jesus. He is "the Word" because His message is preeminent of all the apostles and prophets.Whenever there is an "apparent" conflict between the words of Jesus and the words of Paul, it is because the words of Paul (being human) are more confusing that the words of Jesus (being divine).I suspect the reason you have this two gospels theory is because you don't want to accept the fact that the words of Jesus apply to YOU!Do you despise the words of Jesus?Here is the meaning of the terms Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven from Scofield study notes. Notes For Verse 33[1] kingdom of God The kingdom of God is to be distinguished from the kingdom of heaven (See Note for Mat 3:2) in five respects:(1) The kingdom of God is universal, including all moral intelligences willingly subject to the will of God, whether angels, the Church, or saints of past or future dispensations Luke 13:28, 29; Heb 12:22, 23 while the kingdom of heaven is Messianic, mediatorial, and Davidic, and has for its object the establishment of the kingdom of God in the earth 1Co 15:24, 25(2) The kingdom of God is entered only by the new birth John 3:3, 5-7 the kingdom of heaven, during this age, is the sphere of a profession which may be real or false (See Note for Mat 13:3) Mat 25:1, 11, 12(3) Since the kingdom of heaven is the earthly sphere of the universal kingdom of God, the two have almost all things in common. For this reason many parables and other teachings are spoken of the kingdom of heaven in Matthew, and of the kingdom of God in Mark and Luke. It is the omissions which are significant. The parables of the wheat and tares, and of the net Mat 13:24-30, 36-43, 47-50 are not spoken of the kingdom of God. In that kingdom there are neither tares nor bad fish. But the parable of the leaven Mat 13:33 is spoken of the kingdom of God also, for, alas, even the true doctrines of the kingdom are leavened with the errors of which the Pharisees, Sadducees, and the Herodians were the representatives. (See Note for Mat 13:33)(4) The kingdom of God "comes not with outward show" Luke 17:20 but is chiefly that which is inward and spiritual Rom 14:17 while the kingdom of heaven is organic, and is to be manifested in glory on the earth. (See "Kingdom (O.T.)," Zech 12:8, note; (N.T.), Lu 1:31-33 1co 15:24, note; Mt 17:2, note.) (See Note for Zec 12: Luke 1:31-33 (See Note for 1Co 15:24) (See Note for Mat 17:2)(5) The kingdom of heaven merges into the kingdom of God when Christ, having put all enemies under his feet, "shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father" 1Co 15:24-28 (See Note for Mat 3:2)
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted November 2, 2009 Posted November 2, 2009 Here is the meaning of the terms Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven from Scofield study notes. Notes For Verse 33[1] kingdom of God The kingdom of God is to be distinguished from the kingdom of heaven (See Note for Mat 3:2) in five respects:(1) The kingdom of God is universal, including all moral intelligences willingly subject to the will of God, whether angels, the Church, or saints of past or future dispensations Luke 13:28, 29; Heb 12:22, 23 while the kingdom of heaven is Messianic, mediatorial, and Davidic, and has for its object the establishment of the kingdom of God in the earth 1Co 15:24, 25(2) The kingdom of God is entered only by the new birth John 3:3, 5-7 the kingdom of heaven, during this age, is the sphere of a profession which may be real or false (See Note for Mat 13:3) Mat 25:1, 11, 12(3) Since the kingdom of heaven is the earthly sphere of the universal kingdom of God, the two have almost all things in common. For this reason many parables and other teachings are spoken of the kingdom of heaven in Matthew, and of the kingdom of God in Mark and Luke. It is the omissions which are significant. The parables of the wheat and tares, and of the net Mat 13:24-30, 36-43, 47-50 are not spoken of the kingdom of God. In that kingdom there are neither tares nor bad fish. But the parable of the leaven Mat 13:33 is spoken of the kingdom of God also, for, alas, even the true doctrines of the kingdom are leavened with the errors of which the Pharisees, Sadducees, and the Herodians were the representatives. (See Note for Mat 13:33)(4) The kingdom of God "comes not with outward show" Luke 17:20 but is chiefly that which is inward and spiritual Rom 14:17 while the kingdom of heaven is organic, and is to be manifested in glory on the earth. (See "Kingdom (O.T.)," Zech 12:8, note; (N.T.), Lu 1:31-33 1co 15:24, note; Mt 17:2, note.) (See Note for Zec 12: Luke 1:31-33 (See Note for 1Co 15:24) (See Note for Mat 17:2)(5) The kingdom of heaven merges into the kingdom of God when Christ, having put all enemies under his feet, "shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father" 1Co 15:24-28 (See Note for Mat 3:2)
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted November 2, 2009 Posted November 2, 2009 Some times I wonder if you can do a Bible search at all. Here you go Vance, in the style of DLClark.Taken from http://www.salvationbygrace.org/default.aspxQ - I am totally enjoying the eschatology series. Jim - I'm glad. I find it to be very engaging material, and I figure it's in the Bible for a good reason, so we certainly ought to take the time to explore it. Q - Anyway, I was listening to tape E-6 and you mentioned something about the Catholic Church having something to do with seven hills, which is Roma, and my brain just stopped at that and I went searching around for more information. So...I used my trusty website crawler to search Revelation for 'seven hills' and what I got was a reference to Revelation 17:9. KJV says 'seven mountains'...and from what commentary I could find it seems most everyone is in agreement that this beast is Roman, or derives its power from Rome, or is actually physically located somewhere near Rome. Matthew Henry even went so far as to say that Rome had certain types of governmental offices, seven in all, the last two of which were a 'non-Christian Emperor and a Christian Emperor' and then went on to talk about how the Christian Emperor had not yet appeared on the scene of world. Duh. Jim - Okay, too much exposition on the part of commentators. They love to ride roughshod over these scriptures and start imposing things onto the imagery that the symbols don't necessarily reflect. So, let's look at Rev. 17:9 more closely. We have to back up so we're up to speed when we hit it. In Chapter 13, John stood upon the sand of the sea - a symbol of all the people of earth, in accordance with Abraham's promise that his seed would be as plentiful as the stars of heaven and the sands of sea - and saw a beast rise up which had seven heads and ten horns, and upon the horns were ten crowns. And, upon his heads the name of blasphemy. The beast appeared bodily as a leopard. We know from our study in Daniel that the leopard was a symbol of the Grecian Empire, and its first king, Alexander the Great. The beast had the feet of a bear. Daniel identified the bear, lifted up on one side, as the Medo-Persian Empire, and the two kings, Darius the Mede and Cyrus the Persian. The beast had the mouth a lion, which Daniel identified as the Kingdom of Babylon and King Nebuchadnezzar. I take that to mean that the last beast, the 'little horn,' the antichrist figure, will be the embodiment of Alexander. He will stand in the area of Medo-Persia (Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Kuwait, Assyria, Trans-Jordan). But, he will speak from Babylon. That's important. His message will be Babylonish at its core. The beast is empowered by the dragon, an obvious allusion to Satan, who gives him a place of power and great authority - being, after all, the prince of the power of the air, who also offered Christ all the kingdoms of the Earth if Christ would worship him (Mat. 4:8-9). Now, many people get the next bit of imagery wrong. They say that the scarlet covered beast of Rev. 17 is the same as this beast. Therefore, they talk about the wounding of one of the dragon's heads. I've even see artistic representations of a seven headed dragon with a wounded head. But, that's wrong. Rev. 13:1 says that the leopard/bear/lion beast had seven heads (v.1), ten horns and ten crowns. The scarlet colored beast of Rev. 17 has seven heads and ten horns, but no crowns. In Rev. 13:3, one the seven lion heads is wounded to death, but his deadly wound is healed. These seven lion heads are most easily interpreted as the seven ruling spiritual "heads" - or demonic powers - who oppressed Israel. One of those demonic powers is cut down as though he were dead. I believe that directly parallels what we just studied about the ram and he-goat (Daniel . Daniel identified the ram with two horns as the kings of Medo-Persia, and the he-goat with one notable horn as the first king of Grecia, Alexander. But, just as the he-goat was at the zenith of his power, his horn - the symbol of power - was broken off. That's the deadly wound that was suffered by one of the heads. But, the wound is healed and that same head rises to power again. The apostle John is going to help us understand that in chapter 17. But, Rev. 13:3-4 tell us that when this wounded head returns to power the whole world will wonder after him and worship the dragon that empowers the beast. In verse 5, his Babylonish mouth speaks great blasphemies and he has power for forty-two months; three and a half years. But, very importantly, this wounded head rise out of the "bottomless pit," or the Greek "abussos," from which we get "abyss." This is not an earthly ruler who gets shot and recovers. If it were, in fact, an earthly person, he would have to pre-exist the Apostle John, and have a deadly wound for 2,000 years, and then rise from the abyss. That's a bit much to ask of anyone. What did this have to do with your post? Absolutly nothing.
Vance Posted November 2, 2009 Posted November 2, 2009 Here you go Vance, in the style of DLClark.Taken from http://www.salvationbygrace.org/default.aspx. . . What did this have to do with your post? Absolutly nothing.You forgot and gave attribution (ie. you didn't plagiarize)!
Zakuska Posted November 2, 2009 Posted November 2, 2009 FYI...English translationIn the synoptic Gospels, Mark and Luke use the Greek term "Basileia tou Theou", commonly translated in English as "Kingdom of God." Matthew, on the other hand, prefers the Greek term "Basileia t?n Ouran?n" (???????? ??? ???????), which has been translated as "Kingdom of Heaven." Biblical scholars speculate that the Matthean text adopted the Greek word for "heaven" instead of the Greek word for "God" because, unlike Mark and Luke, it was written by a Jew for a Jewish audience. It was the Jewish practice to avoid using God's name as an act of piety. In Matthew, "heaven" stands for "God."[11][12] The basis for these terms being equivalent is found in the apocalyptic literature of Daniel 2:44 where "the 'God of heaven' will set up a 'kingdom' which will never be destroyed."The word
Flyonthewall Posted November 3, 2009 Posted November 3, 2009 Notice what you said" Ture believers will be baptized.' You make the point that I am trying to make that bible teaches believer's baptism. A person must believer first, their salvation, the be baptized. But I also disagree with your statement. Not all true blievers were or are baptized. Some true believer thing that water baptism is only for the apostolic church age. These people are saved by grace through faith but are not baptized. I do not hold to this view of baptism. Baptism is important but never for salvation. Q. Can you show me a verse that says that if we are not baptized we are judged or condemned? The only condition that the Bible give for judgement is unbelief Mark 16:16; John 3:15-18, 32.DLCThe point I am making is slightly different than yours. Mark 16:16 does not set the criteria of judgment or condemnation, but the criteria of being "saved". Jesus stated "believeth AND is baptized". Baptism is part of the "saved" criteria. No one is saying baptism saves, but it must be done.All true believers will be baptized, even if it is not during this life. That is why LDS baptize for the dead, so that all true believers will have the opportunity to receive baptism.Some true believers may believe baptism is only for the apostolic church age, but when they accept the truth, they will be happy to be baptized.All people will be saved by grace through faith. If a person's faith leads them to accept the words of Christ, they will accept the fact that He said "believeth and baptized".It is interesting that you cite John 3:15 as evidence of belief only, when just a few verses up (5), Jesus states that baptism is required for entrance into the kingdom of God.Let me ask you this...If Jesus says that no one can enter the kingdom of God without being baptized, do you think someone who is not baptized can enter the kingdom of God?
DLClark Posted November 3, 2009 Posted November 3, 2009 The point I am making is slightly different than yours. Mark 16:16 does not set the criteria of judgment or condemnation, but the criteria of being "saved". Jesus stated "believeth AND is baptized". Baptism is part of the "saved" criteria. No one is saying baptism saves, but it must be done.All true believers will be baptized, even if it is not during this life. That is why LDS baptize for the dead, so that all true believers will have the opportunity to receive baptism.Some true believers may believe baptism is only for the apostolic church age, but when they accept the truth, they will be happy to be baptized.All people will be saved by grace through faith. If a person's faith leads them to accept the words of Christ, they will accept the fact that He said "believeth and baptized".It is interesting that you cite John 3:15 as evidence of belief only, when just a few verses up (5), Jesus states that baptism is required for entrance into the kingdom of God.Let me ask you this...If Jesus says that no one can enter the kingdom of God without being baptized, do you think someone who is not baptized can enter the kingdom of God?He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned
Flyonthewall Posted November 4, 2009 Posted November 4, 2009 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned
DLClark Posted November 4, 2009 Posted November 4, 2009 Whoa. De ja vu.Let me ask you this...If Jesus says that no one can enter the kingdom of God without being baptized, do you think someone who is not baptized can enter the kingdom of God?Entering the Kingdom of God is not salvation as the Bible affords us salvation. Christians today are saved by faith alone in Christ then become part of Christ" body the church. Christ lives within the believer. Water baptism has never ever saved anyone. It just gets people wet. In Matt. 12 the offer of the kinfdom was rejected with the committing of the unpardonable sin. Then Matt 16 Christ changes His emphasis to buiding His church. This is the program from today not the Kingdom of God. Christ is calling out a people fro His name sake the church. The Kigdom is future.Read John 3:15-18. Tell what saves us and what condemns us from this passage.DLC
Vance Posted November 4, 2009 Posted November 4, 2009 Can you have faith in Jesus Christ if you don't believe ALL of what He taught?Can you believe IN Jesus Christ without believing Him?
Flyonthewall Posted November 4, 2009 Posted November 4, 2009 Entering the Kingdom of God is not salvation as the Bible affords us salvation.Entering the kingdom of God is not salvation? Then can one enter the Kingdom of God without being saved? You are trying to separate terms that are used interchangably(See Luke 18:25,26)Christians today are saved by faith alone in Christ then become part of Christ" body the church. Christ lives within the believer. Water baptism has never ever saved anyone. It just gets people wet. Again, nobody is saying that baptism saves. However, faith Jesus Christ will cause someone to follow His words. If Jesus says "get baptized", and someone does not, is that faith? In Matt. 12 the offer of the kinfdom was rejected with the committing of the unpardonable sin.Not sure what you are referring to.Then Matt 16 Christ changes His emphasis to buiding His church. This is the program from today not the Kingdom of God.Can you explain the difference between the "church" and "kingdom of God"?Christ is calling out a people fro His name sake the church. The Kigdom is future.That's funny, this is what Jesus said: 20
DLClark Posted November 5, 2009 Posted November 5, 2009 Can you have faith in Jesus Christ if you don't believe ALL of what He taught?Can you believe IN Jesus Christ without believing Him?Read John 3:15-18, 36; John 5:24; Eph 2:8-9; Acts 16:31. Tell me what saves us and what condemns us from these verses?DLC Rom 11:6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.KJV
DLClark Posted November 5, 2009 Posted November 5, 2009 Whoa. De ja vu.Let me ask you this...If Jesus says that no one can enter the kingdom of God without being baptized, do you think someone who is not baptized can enter the kingdom of God?What works then are needed for salvation, in your opinion, if works are part of your salvation?DLC
DLClark Posted November 5, 2009 Posted November 5, 2009 Can you have faith in Jesus Christ if you don't believe ALL of what He taught?Can you believe IN Jesus Christ without believing Him?What works then are needed for salvation, in your opinion, if works are part of your salvation?DLC
DLClark Posted November 5, 2009 Posted November 5, 2009 The point I am making is slightly different than yours. Mark 16:16 does not set the criteria of judgment or condemnation, but the criteria of being "saved". Jesus stated "believeth AND is baptized". Baptism is part of the "saved" criteria. No one is saying baptism saves, but it must be done.All true believers will be baptized, even if it is not during this life. That is why LDS baptize for the dead, so that all true believers will have the opportunity to receive baptism.Some true believers may believe baptism is only for the apostolic church age, but when they accept the truth, they will be happy to be baptized.All people will be saved by grace through faith. If a person's faith leads them to accept the words of Christ, they will accept the fact that He said "believeth and baptized".It is interesting that you cite John 3:15 as evidence of belief only, when just a few verses up (5), Jesus states that baptism is required for entrance into the kingdom of God.Let me ask you this...If Jesus says that no one can enter the kingdom of God without being baptized, do you think someone who is not baptized can enter the kingdom of God?What works then are needed for salvation, in your opinion, if works are part of your salvation?How will you know that you have done your works in the right manner or with the right attitude to merit being saved by grace? DLC
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted November 5, 2009 Posted November 5, 2009 What works then are needed for salvation, in your opinion, if works are part of your salvation?How will you know that you have done your works in the right manner or with the right attitude to merit being saved by grace? DLC Let me ask you "What type of faith is needed for salvation, in your opinion, if faith is part of your salvation?How will you know that you have done your faith in the right manner or with the right attitude to merit being saved by grace? "
DLClark Posted November 5, 2009 Posted November 5, 2009 Let me ask you "What type of faith is needed for salvation, in your opinion, if faith is part of your salvation?How will you know that you have done your faith in the right manner or with the right attitude to merit being saved by grace? "I asked a question first and would love to have an answer from. I will not answer your question untill you answer mine.Mormonism teaches that a person is saved by grace after doing all that he can do. Have you done all that you can do in order to be saved by grace? Book of Mormon says,
DLClark Posted November 5, 2009 Posted November 5, 2009 Yeah, but Peter started it. Mormonism teaches that a person is saved by grace after doing all that he can do. Have you done all that you can do in order to be saved by grace? Book of Mormon says,
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted November 5, 2009 Posted November 5, 2009 I asked a question first and would love to have an answer from. I will not answer your question untill you answer mine.Mormonism teaches that a person is saved by grace after doing all that he can do. Have you done all that you can do in order to be saved by grace? Book of Mormon says,
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